Note: I don't view Shadowrun as a Dystopia. I find it a reflection of our times, no better, no worse. I graduated high school in 1984 (and found Shadowrun then a reflection of those times). My parents grew up in the Great Depression. Your mileage may vary.

That being said, assuming you find Shadowrun or parts of Shadowrun a dystopia, do you feel it's an active dystopia, where the actions of the powerful are deliberately trying to assert control over the masses or do you find it's a passive dystopia, where the powerful simply doesn't care about the masses.

Things to consider might be:
1) Do the powerful fear the masses?
2) Do the powerful react to the demands of the masses or do the powerful only appear to react to the demands of the masses or do the powerful clearly not care.
3) Do the masses fear the powerful?
4) Is that fear realistic?
5) Bread? Circuses?

No need for the inaccurate Apple/Microsoft analogy.

While SR1 does have that 'dystopian future' feel to it, I feel that the game (and thus the story) have evolved with the times.

Currently, I look at it as a combination of the factors you mention. The rich & powerful are, at best, mindful, and at worst, afraid of the unknown, when it comes to the 'masses' at large. Few, if any, have learned the lessons provided by such events as The Night of Rage, but know more recent history (the Crash 2.0, the emergence of technomancers & the subsequent paranoia) can repeat itself and impact not just those below, but just as much as those above.
The will of a small group, in the right position, can affect the larger masses, much like a snowball rolling downhill. But conversely, get enough outspoken minds together, and that ivory tower can topple just as easilly.

Both sides of the equation fear the other, simply because they don't trust it. And in the 6th World, trust is a far more rare commodity than on our world.

I can agree with the reflection of our times bit, and moreso as time marches on. Not just the actual progress of technology, but with corporate interests over the actual needs of the masses, the greed. The governments getting cozy with big business. Even hate groups like Alamos and Humanis are a mirror image of our times; we have Neo-Nazis, KKK, Al-Qaeda, Westboro Baptists, Glen Beck...

And I don't know, the megalomaniacal control exhibited by Apple and Microsoft's "meh, you're gonna buy it anyway" seems a fitting comparison : )~

*shrug* One of them has an OS that locks into 'Pirated Mode'. Microsoft, while possibly apathetic to user wishes, is certainly not passive.

Re: OP, the answer is certainly both. They control *and* don't care. It's a winning combination.

lets stay off the real life stuff that will lead to highly off topic subjects, which are highly opinionated.

SR is arguably not a dystopia anymore since it is heading full steam for a post cyberpunk type setting.

Yeah, what Daylen said.

It is as dystopian as the GM makes it.

That said, the devs have apparently taken pains to ensure that every city in Shadowrun feels completely different from any other. Some of them definitely feel more dystopian than others. Hell, you could almost consider each city its own setting since they're so wildly different.

Chicago. Do not go there. Reason. Ibid. Just don't.

With that sort of statement, there's a story behind it I'm just dying to hear.

Am I alone in thinking a world where advertisements are literally in-your-face is pretty distopian, in a Paul Verhoeven flick sort of way? Though I suppose that might be a reflection of our times. When Apple mandates that we all get iPhones implanted in our skulls we'll know the worlds are really beginning to converge.

I think the world of Shadowrun is one point in an array of possibilities where global capitalism and extreme urbanization can take us. Out of all possibilities, I probably wouldn't consider it one of the better ones, but I don't think that's because of any malevolent intent on the part of the Big Players. Megacorps might screw the masses, but only because they're concerned with their bottom line. The urban poor might erupt into violence, but again, those in control won't be concerned unless its a threat to their power. I think it's sort of a wild, state-of-nature environment, and the megacorps care about the masses the way a predator might care about its prey. If you want to talk about other powerful players like dragons, on the other hand...

Also, there are plenty of dystopian elements in Shadowrun that are unrelated to power struggles: for example the prevalance of beings that want to separate the everyday Joe from his insides (organleggers, ghouls, Shedim...).

I don't think you can categorize it in just one area or the other. It's both (or more specifically, it is whatever is most profitable at the moment). The bulk of people will view the bulk of dystopic attributes as passive, but that's just because it's happening to someone else.

Historically, Seattle had a psychotic thrill-kill gang on nearly every block and on every major road.

I don't see GMs run that way much anymore. Enclaves are pouring out onto the streets now, and cops are willing and able to provide law an order.

I miss the bad old days when it was like New York in The Warriors. A bunch of crazy assholes ruling the night and running from/fighting the cops. That was fun.

QFT.

I'm also pretty put off by the Crash 2.0 and how it destroyed the dystopia completely in the UCAS. With everyone being offered a SIN amnesty that means the only SINless are by choice or the mentally/physically incapacitated. It's a dystopia because the poor chose it to be a dystopia -- not because the rich decided to make it so. Not dystopic in my book.

Are you saying having a super-all-inclusive tracking ID is the opposite of dystopia?

Yeah, because it was so easy to get to the SIN Registration Halls during the riots and panic and such. Especially when you're SINless and no longer have access to your News Account. Or your 'Trid, for that matter because you've been locked out of your house due by the very security systems you bought.

I'm willing to bet the Policlubs were right outside the SIN Registration Halls, making sure "The Right People" got SINs, and "The Wrong People" stayed in the gutter where they belonged, too.

That said, yeah, I'm betting it still wasn't easy to get one, and the Registration Process was probably brutal. But, compared to living on the streets, or finding out that your criminal record was crashed and burned totally... Good time to get out of the Shadows.



1: Yes, but not as much as they have in previous times. "Sure, they have numbers, but my security has belt-fed heavy machine guns. Just put it on the news that they're Terrorists or Anarchists or whatever hot button to push and you're golden."

2: The powerful react to the demands on the masses because the masses are consumers. Other than that, appearance only. But they're really good at spin and propaganda, so that appearance is almost like reacting to the demands, only without having to actually do it.

3: Yes and no. The SINless, sure. They're finding what little support they had from society crumbling around them due to new technology running rampant and totally out of control.

The SINners, they fear what they're told to fear. Unless they're one of the few Sheeple that actually think about things. But that's why they're not getting promoted and so on.

4: Yes and yes.

5: Urban Brawl, Desert Wars, Formula-1 with Machine Guns, belly filling Food-Like Products.

My dystopia is trying to turn more Pink-Mohawk. The news from Starship Troopers (movie) mixed with Snow Crash.

Horrible accidents and crimes happen all the time, to normal people; if a plan crashes due to a widespread technical flaw, instead of making sure it couldn't happen again, the corporation just increases PR.
The "responsible" people prefer to cover up or distract from their enormities, rather than actually take responsibility and deal with them. This also means that the corporations themselves are full of corruption and mismanagement, which gives the SINless breathing room and a way to illegally tap off power and such.

The SINless are tolerated; nay, the government actively (but unofficially) supports their existence. They don't have to pay welfare to the SINless, but the corporations can still sell to them. Poor people (= people who pay less taxes than they cost the government in benefits) are in real danger of having their SIN "accidentally" deleted.

Corporations have no scruples against selling to the SINless; credsticks aren't on the way out in my campaign. But the SINless do go to different stores (somewhat more under the table affiliates of the big corps). Gotta have class differences.

Industry has progressed due to robotization and mass production. Production is efficient and requires very little human labor. For unschooled people, there is very little legal employment. Educated people can artificially generate jobs, especially in the marketing of useless products, bureaucracy and as lawyers.

Police isn't there to provide justice or even safety to the poor; they're there to keep the riff-raff from causing trouble in good neighborhoods. As long as the Barrens aren't spilling out, KE/LS don't care what happens there; no paying customers in the Barrens.

There are basically five social classes:
- Elite (major shareholders, higher-ups in mage fraternities, dragons, mob bosses etc.) - these people live well and are protected from random accidents.
They constitute around 1% of society.

- "National" Citizens: a combination of some poor but mostly middle class people. They have civil rights, but lack the wealth and connections to be really safe. They're kept distracted with bread and circuses on the one hand, and the fear of becoming SINless on the other. They're the backbone of society, serving as qualified professionals (doctors, army, civil service, sub-A corporation owners, talismongers, club proprietors and so forth), they have to work long hard days and they're only moderately rewarded for their efforts; they're one or two bad accidents away from ruin. Still, they have a measure of freedom that the Sararimen lack.
They constitute about 30% of the population.

- Sararimen: people who work for extraterritorial corporations and have corporate citizenship. Although most corporations make their drones work hard, they are possessive of their drones. Only the corporation is allowed to mess with them. They lack freedom, but have security from outside threats. It needs to be noted that many corporations are territorial and possessive enough that they may go on protecting their drones even when it's not strictly profitable.
In the end, this class of people are a minority in society, making up around 19%

- Trash People: these are almost all SINless. Drug addicts, illiterate Barrens natives. They have close to nothing to offer society; no legitimate source of income. They could provide a reservoir of manpower, but they're mostly obsolete because they were replaced by automatic/robot production methods. Simply genociding the whole lot isn't quite socially acceptable, although occasional purges happen. The problem with "kill the poor" is that there will always be more of them. Nutrisoy is provided for them to keep them docile. They're also kept docile with "accidental" spills of dangerous chemicals in their zones. They constitute a big 35% of society.

- Outsiders: people who've turned away from "The System". Neo-tribals, gangs, communes and other stranger groups. Often SINless, but they tend to have allies to provide strength in numbers. This group is pretty big too, and overlaps with Trash People, sometimes preying on them. Shadowrunners tend to fall into this category, as do a lot of mages. This whole group is the most pink-mohawk of society, and their vitality makes them "cool" and useful to the fashion industry. They're not necessarily poor. They fill up the remaining 15% of society.

In my opinion, there's at least some cost/benefit analysis involved in the 'fix it or bury it' answer to problems. Even if you're pumping your PR, if the problem is blatant enough it will still pop out. Probably with some help from competition too, who have a vested intrested in making sure your screwups get as much media attention as possible. And will probably not-so-subtly point the finger at your coverup effort to make you look even worse.
Sure they probably have some skeletons own their own for you to drag out of their closets and into the open as a revenge, but too much of that and you'll convince the drones to bring back to bad old days of government oversight, and before you know it you're slipping into communism... So there's probably an informal consensus that real problems get fixed.

Though I entirely agree that a problem which can be quietly slipped under the rug will, rather than even attempting to fix it.

Narrator: "A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one." - Fight Club

Yeah, sometimes a scandal does break loose, but often it doesn't. In fact, it's not unheard of for people to suddenly lose their SIN and get expelled from their homes due to "bureaucratic error", or for a sudden chemical spill to kill dozens, all without any scandal happening. I like my setting wild, dangerous and slightly Kafkaesque.

Are you so nonconformist that you're going to conform?

People choosing to be powerless and voiceless isn't dystopian?

I think Shadowrun has enough of a mix of oppressors that it can be both an active distopia and a passive one. On the one hand, you can be a cog in the machine that gets ground up by the uncaring wheels of beauracracy. On the other hand, there are also people out to exploit their fellow metahumans every way that they can.

I think Shadowrun sometimes teeters on the verge of being too distopian. Without some rays of hope (Mothers of Metahumans, etc.), you run the risk of either players that stop caring and merely play jaded, amoral scumbags, or players that wallow in tiresome wangst.

Too bad none of what you said is actually mentioned in the BBB. All it says about why people didn't get a SIN was because of a voluntary decision. Although I like your reasons and will use them.

Yeah, well... It doesn't take that much stretch of an imagination to see groups doing that.

I mean, look at how "Elections" are done in some parts of the world. Same thing, really.

It is somewhat complicated that the UCAS does have human rights so theoretically the government would be ensuring that people can get to the offices. This means you have Lone Star/National Guard/MOM versus Humanis/other hate groups. That can lead to the rioting but its tough to justify people being kept away. You'd also have human rights groups/churchs/community organizations going around to get people out to the offices. The countries you are referencing don't have human rights to begin with -- the elections are just a show of democracy to keep other nations happy (ie. foreign aid dollars keep flowing in and the IMF/world bank will still lend them money). If the UCAS didn't give a shit it wouldn't have offered the amnesty.

As far as lack of information goes that is more unfounded than the riots/hate groups. The government wasn't sure about its DATA not the system itself. Crash 2.0 didn't take the backbone down for long and the government CAN'T have offered an amnesty if their systems weren't working (unless they went back to analog aka paper). This means all the trid systems are available to broadcast.

That's great... For the people who have 'Trids.

As for Lone Star protecting the rights of Metahumans, aren't they heavily racist themselves? I certainly play it out that way, so I had to have gotten the idea from somewhere (Perhaps the LAPD?). They have the "Token Troll" on the force, who is used more as a mobile shield than anything else.

And, of course, Elf Spokespersons. Everyone loves to see an Elf on the 'Trid after all.

This brings to mind THE INSURANCE WAR from the Neo-anarchist's Guide to North America.

In other words, "you tell people that my jets explode because our engineers messed up, and I'll have my 'PR people' blow your jets up and say the same damn thing about yours." It's the same basic principal as an oligopoly. There is a complicit agreement that taking strong actions in order to grab for clients is only going to cost everybody. Hell, I bet every robotics manufacturer in the 6th world wishes that Renraku kept a tighter lid on that whole Deus incident. Thanks that them letting that little cat out of the bag and scaring all the customers, a household bot sells for a song.




Not even a quarter as racist as the Metropolitan Guard. The Joint Task Force taking up residence after the whole Arc incident has changed that a little, but any Crash-time UCAS SIN registry guarded by Metropol would have beaten the trogs back with water cannons or worse.

And would have sparked a major inquest and backlash. Remember it was the United Corporate Council that stepped in to stop Governor Victor Allenson after the Night of Rage -- not a human rights group. They threatened boycotts and lockouts. It's a similar situation to the Koran burnings -- whackadoodle wants to hold a Koran burning, public reacts negatively, politician who is getting hammered in the polls sees opportunity to gain public support. Same thing. Public outraged at slaughter of metahumans, corporations see chance to show that they are looking out for public interest whereas the government isn't, so the corporations step in to fill the "void."

After the Night of Rage, mobs of citizens appeared at Lone Star precints and government buildings demanding the resignation of every officer/soldier involved. Allenson was told to step down but refused. He was found dead the next day.

Somehow I don't think that the Star and the Metroplex guard would be stupid enough to try something like that again (although people do consistently prove they are stupid) and if they did I'm pretty sure the backlash would be massive enough that the metahumans would get their citizenship pretty fast after that.

As for trids -- have you ever heard of billboards? I'm pretty sure that Shadowrun and cyberpunk in general still show them in use and many even have blimps with advertising (I'm looking at one on the cover of New Seattle right now). Governments may be incompetent and toothless in Shadowrun but not that incompetent and toothless. And again there are enough examples of humanitarian groups in SR that would have gone out into the Barrens to spread the word (as long as they are old and established so the UB taint doesn't rub off on them -- like various churches, amnesty international).

OK, I'll go with the Blimps. I mean, my group even hacked one in a game for observing a target.

But take into consideration where most SINless are. In areas that do not have observation by anyone who really cares. The SIN Registries in the "City Halls" of the Barrens. Sure, they won't do it right out the doors, but go a few blocks and you're golden.

And, yeah, the Guard probably learned their lesson with The Night of Rage (Which hit more than Seattle, BTW.). So, they don't do it themselves. They hire a racist street gang to do it. There, it isn't the Guard, it's just common, everyday Street Violence.

And the Star can go, "Sorry, busy protecting Downtown, Bellevue, and Tacoma. Rain Check on the riot in the bad end of town, because there's riots here too!"

There. Now we are starting to get somewhere a bit more interesting and a spot where groups can get involved. I still think it is an insanely fucking retarded idea especially as written in the actual game.

Although I would still point out that groups like MOM have an incentive to bus loads of metahumans from the Barrens to the Downtown registration hall if the Touristville hall is being besieged by Humanis thugs. These new citizens are direct votes in the pockets of the MOM candidates and that is a VERY strong incentive to pay money and take the effort to get them SINs. I mean this was the sort of stuff they were doing already -- and now the government is suddenly letting them bring a ton of "probationary citizen" metahumans into the UCAS system proper. Yes please.

So again, you should have a MUCH smaller SINless population in the UCAS post Crash 2.0.

Who have no education, no job skills, can't read the contracts they sign, can't pay much (If anything) in taxes yet need benefits from the Government...

But they vote, very true!

So, they're not SINless any more. Now they have other issues.

I have a problem with part of the setting.
There's been huge/massive depopulation of the world. Twice. VITAS 1&2
And yet they talk about overcrowded sprawls everywhere.

For me, the way to mesh those two concepts together is that Nature has been abandoned. Civilization has shrunk in on itself.
Yes, the Major Urban centers are sprawly and super packed in. But that's because the suburban and rural worlds have been swallowed up by Para-nature.

I think of it as a lot like early colonial America. If your tough enough, and resourceful enough you can go live into the wilderness. Otherwise, you live in the pockets of Civilization.

That civilization is to me, just an extreme of the have/havenots corporate/public interests clash of today.
I think there are 4 groups of people in Shadowrun.
The Rich™ : Corporate Executives, Government Big Wigs.

The Middle Class™: I think is actually sizeable. They're just completely disenfranchised. This is made up of Corporate Middle Management, Scientists, Corporate Mages, Corporate Technomancers, Security Experts, Governmental Bureaucracy, Judges, Most elected officials, etc. Everyone who can afford the Middle and High Lifestyles. In order for the corporations to be able to sell products, people have to buy them, The Middle Class is what buys shit©

The Poor™: The classic WageSlaves.

The SiNless™: Think the working class in The Heart of Darkness. People who have no social protections, no health insurance, who live paycheck to paycheck, when they can get paychecks. You get hurt in a factory, they dump you out without so much as a bandaid. Shantytown Poor in India are a great example of this.

I think you have both the active crushing of souls, say from Aztechnology and Lone Star, and some of the others. And you have the Apathy of the traditional Japanese Megacorps.

Well, to be fair, the overpopulation thing is due to artificially created islands like Seattle. Or natural ones like New York and Denver.

Head to some place where land is still pretty cheap, and you'd find people spreading out quite a bit. Winnipeg, Saskatoon, and Calgary would be good examples of this. (Someone want to mention some US ones?).

But who wants a Cyberpunk game where you can't hide in the crowded throng of people?

In Shawdowrun all those cities are NAN territory, and most of them are 'back to nature' types

...

Except Winnipeg, yeah.

Education/skills: That's what skillwires are for! And many places still employ janitors to clean up the shitty bathrooms instead of drones (not sure why but most runs still seem to have people janitors).
Illiteracy: this has been part of SR for a long time and is even affecting the professionals. An established part of the setting is that literacy is on the decline because of the visual nature of the Matrix. I don't need to read the contract -- I have the LawyerBot 2000 ™ analyze it for me (free trial version available on UCAS Online!) and explain it to me.

This amnesty has to have been politically motivated and it has to have come from the pro-Meta camp. Otherwise you would have just ponied up the extra money and done a survey of the BUSINESSES. Unless somehow every person's Credstick/SIN got wiped in the crash along with all the Payroll records. Humanis backed politicians just say "Wait until people go back to work and ask the businesses who they employ and what there SIN number is." Not "OMFG! We don't know who's a citizen anymore!!! WTF! Give a free amnesty to everyone who can haul ass down to a government building and hand out SINs like candy! OMFG!" Hell, in modern times businesses are required to remit money to the government to cover income taxes and that data includes the SIN/SSA numbers of everyone the business is filing for. Just ask the businesses to make a $0 filing for this month and blamo! Citizenship records.

Also remember that before Crash 2.0 and the rise of wireless matrix, People would have had actual drivers licenses, identity cards, passports, etc. Because almost noone had a cyberdeck and datajacks.
I think more likely, after the Crash, you could come into City Hall, or go to the Counter Records, and present 2 pieces of ID and 2 proof of residency. If you actually had a copy of your birth certificate, even better, you could get a shiny new SiN. If you couldn't do that. Well, sorry, you're out of luck. Come back with those documents, or GTFO.

Fixed.

QFT

My fault, I assumed everyone understood that Bribery was de rigeur.

Of course, it would have to be in cash. Since anything in banks would be.. how you say.. unaccessible.

1) Do the powerful fear the masses?
(Only when outside there spheres of influence.)
2) Do the powerful react to the demands of the masses or do the powerful only appear to react to the demands of the masses or do the powerful clearly not care.
(They manufacture most demand outside of basic needs, might even manufacture some of those as well if they can.)
3) Do the masses fear the powerful?
(Most do.)
4) Is that fear realistic?
(It's a learned fear, the boogey man syndrome. But in this case the boogey could technically show up one day.)
5) Bread? Circuses?
(artificial bread and bright and shiny circus's for the win!)

"Wait, Ronald Reagan is on the $1000 bill?" - When I introduced UCAS Dollars into the game.

I bet a polaroid of Kyle Haeffner just post-assassination would be hugely valuable.

Dude, you are breaking the first AND the second rules. Shush...

Sweet!

My games, especially my latest campaign, are dystopic. They do have "psychotic thrill-kill gang on nearly every block and on every major road".

In my games, the powerful don't oppress the masses, they squeeze them dry (just like any other resources)... and the masses like it.
The corps show shiny toys to the masses and let them have them in exchange for their loyalty and obedience and the masses accept. They don't have much choice anyway since the world is so dangerous (terrible environmental conditions, sky-high crime rates, magical threats...) that without the corporate protection they wouldn't be safe anyway (an idea that's true to begin with but also magnified by corp propaganda). The carrot (shiny toys) and the stick (fear of the world) is what keep the masses in check.

The masses don't fear the corps, they are the only stable entities in this world gone mad. They are the only one to offer them a protection that they can't get from the States and even the charities (i.e Universal Brotherhood). And they even give them shiny toys! And the corps don't fear the masses since they literally own them.