Spell Force, Sustaining, and Edge? Options

[Jonny Reload]

On pg. 182 of SR4A it states that Force limits how many hits you can use in your dice pool upon the Spell... But right below that it states that this limitation doesn't apply to Edge dice used to boost the pool.

Can you cast a Force 6 Spell and get a few extra hits on your Edge dice to give you 8 or 9 hits but sustain it with a Force 6 Sustaining Foci? (Ex. Increase Agility 8 or 9 being sustained with a Force 6 Sustaining Foci?)

Also, what if you decide to roll your Edge before you roll all your dice, are all your 6's that you re-roll count past whatever the Force of the spell is?

[pbangarth]

If you roll your Edge dice separately (or a different colour), it's easy to figure out. The original pool's hits can't go above the Force of the spell. Extra hits from the Edge dice, and from rerolls because of Edge (either the exploding sixes of both the original pool and the Edge dice, or the reroll afterwards) can bring the total number of hits above the Force of the spell.

[Yerameyahu]

Your Edge dice should be kept separate.

[Jonny Reload]

But basically, you can sustain something with more then 6 hits with a Force 6 Focus using this method, correct? (Ex. Increased Agility 7+)

[Yerameyahu]

I dunno. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's kind of an exploit; either it's an unintended loophole, or the rules are simply too vague to address it. A GM could rule that the Force of the focus is the number of hits it can handle, or a GM could allow this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Under normal circumstances, it shouldn't be *too* imbalancing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Jaid]

technically yes, this works. your GM may or may not have problems with that, which is far more likely to determine whether or not it works in your home game than anything we can say here on dumpshock, in most cases.

[Draco18s]

Your Edge dice should be kept separate.

For this, and one other occasion hinted at in the rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)
If Edge dice (e.g. only the 1-6 granted by the Edge stat) were somehow "different" than the other dice in the pool the rules would say so.

[KarmaInferno]

I dunno. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's kind of an exploit; either it's an unintended loophole, or the rules are simply too vague to address it. A GM could rule that the Force of the focus is the number of hits it can handle, or a GM could allow this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Under normal circumstances, it shouldn't be *too* imbalancing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yeah, by the strict RAW, the sustaining focus doesn't care HOW many hits you got, it only cares about what Force you cast the spell at.

But many GMs are likely to restrict it to sustaining focus rating = max hits.



-karma

[Yerameyahu]

Edge dice *are* different. There's no reason not to keep them separate, either, so why worry?

[Mäx]

Can you cast a Force 6 Spell and get a few extra hits on your Edge dice to give you 8 or 9 hits but sustain it with a Force 6 Sustaining Foci? (Ex. Increase Agility 8 or 9 being sustained with a Force 6 Sustaining Foci?)

That should work, as long as your natural agility is 6 or less, as IIRC the spells actual force needs to be higher then the attribute your boosting.

But this trick works most nicely for increased iniative, as that spell effect only cares about the number of hits.

[Makki]

But this trick works most nicely for increased iniative, as that spell effect only cares about the number of hits.

and you can't get the necessary F4 sustaining focus on chargen (without restricted gear) for +3 IPs. so i buy a F1 focus and roll my spell with edge?

[CeeJay]

Edge dice *are* different. There's no reason not to keep them separate, either, so why worry?

Ah excuse me, but how exactly are edge dice "different" from other dice? I mean, the rules tell us, that after the usage of edge on a roll different rules apply (like exploding dice for instance), but I can't find anything in the rules that states that you can or should be able to differentiate between edge dice and normal dice in your dicepool...

-CJ

[Draco18s]

There's no reason not to keep them separate, either, so why worry?

You mean no reason other than the possibility of a few extra hits on your spellcasting tests?

[Yerameyahu]

What are you guys talking about? Edge dice are obviously different, because they come from Edge, and their hits can exceed Force for spellcasting. How is this confusing? You roll your normal dice pool on one side, and your extra few dice on the other.

[Fringe]

Ah excuse me, but how exactly are edge dice "different" from other dice? I mean, the rules tell us, that after the usage of edge on a roll different rules apply (like exploding dice for instance), but I can't find anything in the rules that states that you can or should be able to differentiate between edge dice and normal dice in your dicepool...

-CJ

For just the reason people have said before: The Edge dice hits are the only ones that can exceed the spell's force. But that's really the only way the Edge dice differ from the normal dice pool, unless you waited until after the roll to spend the Edge point. (Which I've never seen anyone do. If my dice pool is too small, or I want those exploding 6s, I typically spend before. If the dice just came up short and I need one or two more hits, I typically just spend to reroll failures.)

Which brings up another question: Spending Edge (before the roll) causes all dice rolled to explode 6s. Do exploded 6s on the original pool dice count as original pool or Edge for this?

For example: I'm casting a Force 2 Increase Reflexes spell through a Force 2 sustaining focus. I have Magic 5, Spellcasting 3, Edge 3. I pop an Edge point. My Magic+Spellcasting dice come up 6,6,6,5,4,3,1,1 and my Edge dice come up 5,3,2. So far, I can count 2 of the 4 hits from the base pool (since I cast at Force 2) and 1 hit from Edge. I then explode the 6s and come up 5,5,2. So now I have 2 hits from the base pool, 1 hit from Edge, and 2 more hits from the exploded dice. Do I get to count those extra hits, for a total of 5 hits, since the dice explosion can only result from spending Edge? Or am I limited to the 3 hits, since the exploded dice came from the original pool, which is limited?

I'm inclined to go with the former (5 hits), since the Edge expenditure is the only thing allowing dice to explode in the first place. But I'll have to look at the rules to be sure.

[pbangarth]

For just the reason people have said before: The Edge dice hits are the only ones that can exceed the spell's force. But that's really the only way the Edge dice differ from the normal dice pool, unless you waited until after the roll to spend the Edge point. (Which I've never seen anyone do. If my dice pool is too small, or I want those exploding 6s, I typically spend before. If the dice just came up short and I need one or two more hits, I typically just spend to reroll failures.)

There's a thread way back that discusses the relative merits of using Edge dice before and after. The upshot is that there is a break point in the original pool, at 2.5 times the Edge pool. If your original pool is that size or bigger, you are likely (not guaranteed) to get more hits by saving your Edge to use after the initial roll.

Which brings up another question: Spending Edge (before the roll) causes all dice rolled to explode 6s. Do exploded 6s on the original pool dice count as original pool or Edge for this?

For example: I'm casting a Force 2 Increase Reflexes spell through a Force 2 sustaining focus. I have Magic 5, Spellcasting 3, Edge 3. I pop an Edge point. My Magic+Spellcasting dice come up 6,6,6,5,4,3,1,1 and my Edge dice come up 5,3,2. So far, I can count 2 of the 4 hits from the base pool (since I cast at Force 2) and 1 hit from Edge. I then explode the 6s and come up 5,5,2. So now I have 2 hits from the base pool, 1 hit from Edge, and 2 more hits from the exploded dice. Do I get to count those extra hits, for a total of 5 hits, since the dice explosion can only result from spending Edge? Or am I limited to the 3 hits, since the exploded dice came from the original pool, which is limited?

I'm inclined to go with the former (5 hits), since the Edge expenditure is the only thing allowing dice to explode in the first place. But I'll have to look at the rules to be sure.

That's the way I see it, too. The dice explosion happened because of a use of Edge, so the extra dice/hits are because of Edge. it's a little grey, though.

[Yerameyahu]

Judging by the way the book uses the term 'Edge dice', I don't think that exploding 6s on 'regular dice' would count for hits-over-Force. (Go ahead, fulltext search for 'Edge dice'). Start with them separate and keep them that way, by the RAW.

That said, this is a unique and kinda silly exceptional situation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If this question comes up a lot in your game, and if it's not a source of abuse, and if the tiny bit of special handling is onerous to your players… then screw it, roll everything together. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I doubt all those 'ifs' can be satisfied, though. Hehe.

[Fringe]

Or just roll everything together, but limit the extra hits to your Edge score. (But that would be more of a house rule.)

I could see it coming up sometimes with the example I gave, with the low-force sustaining focus. Or in combat, casting a Heal spell through a sustaining focus on a heavily-wounded comrade (saving you the -2 DP sustaining penalty to subsequent actions and probably saving the comrade's life in case you happen to get KOed). The problem (or, rather, balance) is that you're limited in the force of the spell (and thus in net hits) to the force of the sustaining focus, so you may be in the situation where you have to spend Edge to get the number of net hits you need.