Free Spirit PC Options

[Machiavelli]

Can somebody please tell me exactly how the creation of a free spirit PC works? Search-Fu failed miserably but i know that this topic had been discussed more than once. A link-reference would be enough for me. I just need to know what starting attributes a free spirit has. I know that he starts with all mental attributes at 2 (like his beginning force) but do i really have to pay for the first point in all physical attributes? How high is edge at the beginning? If i raise the force e.g. to 4, does it increase the mentals as well?

[Laodicea]

This is a hotly debated topic because the section on PC free spirit characters in runners companion and the section on free spirits in Street Magic are not the most clearly written thing ever.

There's basically 2 schools of thought.

1. The free spirit PC has physical and mental stats equal to its Force, which starts at 2(which you do not pay for), and can be raised up to 6 at character creation, and further by initiation and raising of the Force stat in-game. Raising your Force stat raises all your other mental and physical stats at the same time. You need not raise each one individually.

This method results in a drastically overpowered character in all cases.


2. The free spirit PC has physical and mental stats which start at 2, you do not pay for these 2 points. The Force stat is the natural maximum for physical and mental stats, so to raise any stat, you must first raise force. You then pay for each stat separately to raise it, up to the natural maximum of Force.
This is the method supported by the community DK SR4 chargen excel spreadsheet.

This method results in an underpowered character in almost all cases. The character can still be good if it abuses the hell out of some of the spirit powers such as fear, engulf, and movement.

In either case, free spirit characters fundamentally change the game. Especially materialization free spirits, who can easily teleport themselves wherever and materialize wherever.

[Neraph]

This method results in a drastically overpowered character in all cases.

I would care to debate that. All other characters have dramatically more flexibility than a Free Spirit has. You're basically buying half a mage with teleport.

Also, not running it this way puts Free Spirits directly in conflict of every other spirit listed in the entire game, where all their attributes are based off of their Force.

[TommyTwoToes]

I would care to debate that. All other characters have dramatically more flexibility than a Free Spirit has. You're basically buying half a mage with teleport.

Also, not running it this way puts Free Spirits directly in conflict of every other spirit listed in the entire game, where all their attributes are based off of their Force.

I think the first line of her post specifically addressed the fact there there is contention between the 2 views.

[Starmage21]

I think the first line of her post specifically addressed the fact there there is contention between the 2 views.

No. He said "in all cases". Theres no contention there. Just an authoritative opinion thats flat out wrong. Even with the "more powerful" option, 1/2 a mage with Teleport is effectively correct.

[Neraph]

The first replier correctly stated the two different points of view, and correctly stated that they are debated. I specifically disagree with the opinion listed after the first option.

[sabs]

No. He said "in all cases". Theres no contention there. Just an authoritative opinion thats flat out wrong. Even with the "more powerful" option, 1/2 a mage with Teleport is effectively correct.

Half a Mage with Teleport with better stats than anyone else.
Straight 6's is pretty sweet, especially when all it cost you was 55bp

[Laodicea]

I would care to debate that. All other characters have dramatically more flexibility than a Free Spirit has. You're basically buying half a mage with teleport.

Also, not running it this way puts Free Spirits directly in conflict of every other spirit listed in the entire game, where all their attributes are based off of their Force.

You're leaving a lot out of this, calling them half a mage with teleport.

If you use method 1. for chargen, they're a mage with all attributes = 6. 12 hardened armor. They cannot conjure or bond foci, but they get spirit powers, which more than makes up for that. Spirit powers. I know for a fact that you've looked at those spirit powers and thought of ways they can be abused. It's huge. Those spirit powers are game changers.

They have 2 things they can do once in game with karma and money. Karma: initiate and raise Force, which by this rational raises all other stats at the same time. Money: purchase quickened spells. This character will be reluctant to force its way through any manabarriers anyway, so go nuts on the quickened spells.

[Neraph]

Half a Mage with Teleport with better stats than anyone else.
Straight 6's is pretty sweet, especially when all it cost you was 55bp

No, it cost you 305 BP. And that'll leave you with nearly nothing for skills.

Money: purchase quickened spells.

Where did you ever get that idea?

[Laodicea]

No, it cost you 305 BP. And that'll leave you with nearly nothing for skills.


Where did you ever get that idea?

They dont need any skills. Spellcasting: 5 Assensing: 5 That's it. You could go all exotic and try to make them good at melee or elemental attack. But why? Just toss stunbolts/balls everywhere.

[sabs]

No, it cost you 305 BP. And that'll leave you with nearly nothing for skills.


Where did you ever get that idea?

it leaves you 95 for skills.. which isn't much I admit. But it's certainly enough to get a narrow grouping of skills.
Now you also want a high Edge.. so that might be an issue.

Still how many skills do you really need.
Perception
Dodge
Sorcery group
Unarmed Combat
Influence group

buy them cheap, raise them with karma later.

[Neraph]

They dont need any skills. Spellcasting: 5 Assensing: 5 That's it. You could go all exotic and try to make them good at melee or elemental attack. But why? Just toss stunbolts/balls everywhere.

Right. For pure munchkins/powergamers/whatever-you-call-thems, that's all you "need." For the rest of us who like to play characters, trying to juggle 10 attributes plus skills and gear with 150 BP is nigh-impossible to have anything remotely resembling something that isn't anemic and asthmatic.

Also, it's still easy to disrupt a F6 spirit. SnS rounds work, and even if your game doesn't use those (which really adds a lot more problems by removing them than simply leaving them in the game), there are easy ways to disrupt spirits. Remember, as a spirit, you're much more vulnerable to other spellcasters, especially the ones that have Mana Static.

If you use Option #2 from above, your piddly spirit wouldn't be able to pull his own weight against a F4 spirit unless you get really, really specialized. Even if you are specialized, a F6 could cream you.

[Neraph]

it leaves you 95 for skills.. which isn't much I admit. But it's certainly enough to get a narrow grouping of skills.
Now you also want a high Edge.. so that might be an issue.

Still how many skills do you really need.
Perception
Dodge
Sorcery group
Unarmed Combat
Influence group

buy them cheap, raise them with karma later.

At R1 for all of those, that's 32 BP. And with your stat of 2, that means you're useless. And you're putting even more strain on your Karma for later.

[Doc Chase]

At R1 for all of those, that's 32 BP. And with your stat of 2, that means you're useless. And you're putting even more strain on your Karma for later.

I thought he had 6's across the board. Unless I misread something.

[Laodicea]

Right. For pure munchkins/powergamers/whatever-you-call-thems, that's all you "need." For the rest of us who like to play characters, trying to juggle 10 attributes plus skills and gear with 150 BP is nigh-impossible to have anything remotely resembling something that isn't anemic and asthmatic.

Also, it's still easy to disrupt a F6 spirit. SnS rounds work, and even if your game doesn't use those (which really adds a lot more problems by removing them than simply leaving them in the game), there are easy ways to disrupt spirits. Remember, as a spirit, you're much more vulnerable to other spellcasters, especially the ones that have Mana Static.

If you use Option #2 from above, your piddly spirit wouldn't be able to pull his own weight against a F4 spirit unless you get really, really specialized. Even if you are specialized, a F6 could cream you.

absolutely true. As I said, option 1 gives you a vastly overpowered character that will overshadow almost the entire rest of the team. Option 2 gives you a horribly under powered piece of crap that a person will only want to play if they're really interested in the RP aspects of it.

[Neraph]

I thought he had 6's across the board. Unless I misread something.

Oh, you're talking about #1 option. I assumed the build there was operating under the #2 option.

#1 definately makes it better, but all your checks would be at 7 dicepool, which is nothing compared to another 'runner or even most of your opposition. PR 3 opponents have a dicepool of about 8 for most actions. When all your friends are pulling 20+ dice for their chosen actions, your 7 DP is cute, if not outright annoying. Most teams would cut you out as a liability.

[Doc Chase]

Oh, you're talking about #1 option. I assumed the build there was operating under the #2 option.

#1 definately makes it better, but all your checks would be at 7 dicepool, which is nothing compared to another 'runner or even most of your opposition. PR 3 opponents have a dicepool of about 8 for most actions. When all your friends are pulling 20+ dice for their chosen actions, your 7 DP is cute, if not outright annoying. Most teams would cut you out as a liability.

Ah, I see where you're at now.

And I don't have any runners pulling 20+ dice for their actions - usually only around a dozen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[sabs]

Okay so my skills suck.
I have 6 across the board, and I have a 4 edge.

Now i take the following Spirit Powers:
Animal Control 1
Concealment 2
Guard .5
Psychokinesis .5

If you can squeeze another point of edge:
Divining OR confusion are both awesome powers.

Now I have a free spirit with 6's in his stats, who can:
Make the entire party concealed imposing -Magic rating (ie 6) on all perception tests to notice them.
Can have guard on the entire group making them immune to accidents
Can control animals to do simple things (like have a rat sneak into a facility and take a set of keys out, etc.
Can move objects like the Fingers spell.

Heaven forbid he's from a possession tradition, and he possesses something dangerous physically.
Oh he's also got ITNW at 6, so he's got 12 points of armor.

Not exactly worthless

[pbangarth]

Okay so my skills suck.
I have 6 across the board, and I have a 4 edge.

Why Edge at only 4? This Attribute too is governed by Force, and raises as Force raises.

[sabs]

Why Edge at only 4? This Attribute too is governed by Force, and raises as Force raises.

I wasn't sure if it was, or being a special attribute you had to buy it seperately (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
That's even more eeevil. I have 2 more points.
Movement then? Or just take both Divining and Confusion.
OR Binding Binding is cute.

How good is possession? Can I go into a facility, possess a security guard, and then lets my fellow shadowrunners into the facility?

[Laodicea]

Things get a little wonky with some of the powers, like movement, with free spirit PCs.

The Movement power description states that they can only use it within their personal domain. Which makes the Personal Domain power a pre-requisite, which is pretty worthless for a shadowrunner. How would a GM even rule on a spirits Personal Domain? Just let the spirit character pick a huge area of downtown seattle or denver? Surely that cant be declared a Personal Domain. Somewhere out in the middle of the woods? That's useless.

For the free spirit character in my game i ruled that their Movement power could be used on people that it has an intimate magical connection with, aka, a spirit friend pact. All the members of the shadowrun team decided to take the pact. So all of them can have Movement used on them at will. It also provides a nice mindlink to the spirit from all the other player characters.

[Laodicea]

small potential derailment or hijacking of thread. Perhaps it warrants its own thread but I feel that one new thread per day is my limit and anything more is hubris.

For a materialization spirit being shot at, using a full defense action, couldn't he just de-materialize to avoid the bullets all together? Of course if he wants to re-materialize he'll have to spend yet another IP to do it. So he's spent 2 IPs to avoid the bullets entirely, and to re-assert himself on the material plane. Any thoughts?

[sabs]

small potential derailment or hijacking of thread. Perhaps it warrants its own thread but I feel that one new thread per day is my limit and anything more is hubris.

For a materialization spirit being shot at, using a full defense action, couldn't he just de-materialize to avoid the bullets all together? Of course if he wants to re-materialize he'll have to spend yet another IP to do it. So he's spent 2 IPs to avoid the bullets entirely, and to re-assert himself on the material plane. Any thoughts?

I think that would be quite acceptable.
Btw, how many IP's does a Free Spirit have? (without quickened increased reflexes)

[Laodicea]

2 on the physical. 3 on the astral.

This situation makes that whole thing pretty fuzzy, since they're spending time in both planes.

[sabs]

2 on the physical. 3 on the astral.

This situation makes that whole thing pretty fuzzy, since they're spending time in both planes.

Well Materialize is a physical power, so it should take a physical IP (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)