Max Starting Cash, If you really tweaked everything Options

[StealthSigma]

Starting cash? 16,000 nuyen.

4d6 for luxury lifestyle + 12d6 for having 1,200 nuyen leftover from char gen. 16d6 * 1000 at all 6s is 16,000.

Chargen cash? 330,000 nuyen. BMP doesn't increase funds, it only stretches how far they can go.

250,000 - 50BP
50,000 - Born Rich
30,000 - In Debt
330,000 - Total

[Karoline]

Starting cash? 16,000 nuyen.

4d6 for luxury lifestyle + 12d6 for having 1,200 nuyen leftover from char gen. 16d6 * 1000 at all 6s is 16,000.

You have some truly wonky math. If the first part of what you said is correct (which it isn't) that would be 16*6*1000=96,000

Now, if you use the actual rules, then you're looking at (4d6+12)*1000 nuyen, which is (4*6+12)*1000=36,000 nuyen.

[StealthSigma]

[quote name='Karoline' post='990670' date='Sep 20 2010, 12:42 PM']You have some truly wonky math. If the first part of what you said is correct (which it isn't) that would be 16*6*1000=96,000

Arg, I did misread the rule. I was thinking it was 1 die per 100 nuyen.

Its 4d6 * 1000 + 12,000.

Minimum: 16,000
Average: 26,000
Maximum: 36,000

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

*shrug* The rule says nothing about doing favors, only paying interest. It says 10% interest. I dunno how to calculate 10% of a favor, so I assume it's cash. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Your version sounds fun (Negative Quality: Somebody's Bitch), and I'm sure it could work. It's just not what the book says. Again, I'm *only* arguing that Tymeaus shouldn't say the book says things it doesn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Since it is still a Negative Quality until it is paid off with Karma, and the GM can enforce it anywazy he feels, including replacing it with another negative Quality (or several) equaling to the original BP debt, I see nothing improper in the interpretation that you STILL OWE SOMEONE something... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Favors equal Cash in Shadowrun, anyone who disputes that has not been paying attention... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, you're right, that isn't a character killer. But it's also a house rule. I said "In Debt" was a munchkin, poorly written NQ. If you want to turn it into "Saint Sithney's In Debted For Life For a Paltry Sum of Cash", then it's now a different NQ all together. But it doesn't exist in 4e anywhere except your table. You're not coming up with an "interpretation" for anything, so it's incorrect to use that word. There's nothing in that quality that even remotely suggests anything like that. You're simply expanding and modifying an existing NQ into something different. Which is fair, and a little better conceived than what the guys who wrote Runner's Companion came up with. It still makes no sense to be in debt for life for (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 30K. That's why it's replacing a poorly conceived flaw with a poorly conceived "fix".

And why I said very specifically that In Debt is not a very good quality.

That's odd, WE have the exact same interpretation at our table a well...

The fact that you MUST pay off the Negative Qualities with Karma to be rid of them indicates to me that you will suffer under the GM's thumb, Through either a re-interpreted version of In-Debt or new Negative Qualities equal to the uinpaid BP debt that exists (with no way to influence what they may be as a character)... either way, the GM is in his right to do so if you show no interest in repaying the Karma Debt incurred by paying off your monetary debt... Well within the Rules as they are Written as far as I am concerned...

[Yerameyahu]

The GM cannot enforce it any way he feels, except as a non-RAW house rule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's not at all 'well within RAW', which is why it's not acceptable that you keep saying so. Just *say* 'it's a house rule for balance'. Didn't we go through this same issue elsewhere, Tymeaus? You're allergic to the phrase 'house rule'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Karoline]

The GM cannot enforce it any way he feels, except as a non-RAW house rule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's not at all 'well within RAW', which is why it's not acceptable that you keep saying so. Just *say* 'it's a house rule for balance'. Didn't we go through this same issue elsewhere, Tymeaus? You're allergic to the phrase 'house rule'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I remember that conversation.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The GM cannot enforce it any way he feels, except as a non-RAW house rule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's not at all 'well within RAW', which is why it's not acceptable that you keep saying so. Just *say* 'it's a house rule for balance'. Didn't we go through this same issue elsewhere, Tymeaus? You're allergic to the phrase 'house rule'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Not allergic, No...

But here is the thing... when the GM is allowed Carte Blanche in the Rules, it is not a Houserule to use it. If the Character refuses to buy the Negative Quality off (Assuming the GM even lets him do so) because he is being a jerk, the GM can give him additional Negative Qualities to rebalance the Negative Quality he was abusing... My interpretation simple uses the quotes within In-Debt to keep it balanced. "The charactert is indebted to an organization"... Indebted implies much more than just money, especially if the Karma Debt is never paid... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Are You allergic to that Yerameyahu? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

You and I disagree on whether the GM is within his rights to rebalance the unpaid for Quality... My way is RAW as far as I am concerned, and you disagree... that is okay with me... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Karoline]

Indebted implies much more than just money, especially if the Karma Debt is never paid... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

I wouldn't say that indebted 'implies' more than just money, but I would agree that it 'could mean' more than just money.

[Yerameyahu]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's the definition of a house rule, and the opposite of RAW. If you choose to define RAW as 'including house rules'…

Again, I'm not saying that you shouldn't do any of the good suggestions and ideas mentioned here, because In Debt sucks. I'm saying, please stop calling it RAW when you change the rules.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I wouldn't say that indebted 'implies' more than just money, but I would agree that it 'could mean' more than just money.

Fair Enough... I choose to read it as "It Does" mean more... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's the definition of a house rule, and the opposite of RAW. If you choose to define RAW as 'including house rules'…

Again, I'm not saying that you shouldn't do any of the good suggestions and ideas mentioned here, because In Debt sucks. I'm saying, please stop calling it RAW when you change the rules.

However, the possibility exists that I am right in my interpretation, and as such it would fall under RAW... at that point, it becomes quite useless to tell me that I am wrong, when there is no evidence to PROVE it...

And since you cannot disprove it, well... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

The purpose of these discussions is to point out different points of view that have meaning... My interpretation is just as valid as yours, and is therefore not WRONG (Meaning it has the possibility to be RAW or Houserule)... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[nemafow]

There is a rule that states if you don't like something you can change it, as its all about having fun. The GM doing the above, is RAW. Just not RAW. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

I tend to have the opinion that a negative quality is a negative quality until the karma's been paid off.

That's the general rule, anyhow, and In Debt doesn't have any notations that the general rule is suspended.

Let's face it, most of the organizations that will lend large amounts of money for a 50% interest rate and no questions asked about what you're doing with the cash, tend to be very not-nice people.

They are the sort of people that it probably doesn't matter if your entire cash debt is paid off, they still will consider you to owe them.

The Karma cost to pay off the quality abstractly represents efforts taken to finally end their hold over you once and for all. Additional payoffs, blackmail, bribes, secret deals, etc. All to get that organization to back off and leave you alone.

That's my opinion on it, anyhow. And it's more or less supported by the rules.


-karma

[Karoline]

I don't think it is that they loan it to you at a 50% interest rate (actually they loan it to you at a 10% interest rate), but the 50% increase represents that you didn't take out the loan the day before play starts, you likely got it several months or a year or two ago, and the interest has been slowly building up.

[Yerameyahu]

And there's nothing wrong with that, KarmaInferno. It's simply lying to tell people that's the RAW. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's not a question of multiple RAW interpretations, which we considered at length earlier in the thread.

Saying that it's no less wrong than other 'interpretations' isn't an argument that it's *right*, Tymeaus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) There is zero possibility that you're 'correct', unless by that you mean that a dev says, 'yes, that's what I *meant*, but didn't write'.

The only things we can be sure are RAW are that you have to pay 10% interest (on 150% of the initial principal, *possibly* reduced by repayment) each month, or they 'may send people looking for you'; and that you must pay karma to have the Negative Quality removed from your character sheet. There is no possibility that the RAW says, let alone means, that you owe favors, or more money, or any other (perfectly acceptable and appropriate) house rule effects.

[Saint Sithney]

It's a quality.
A defining characteristic of a person.

This means it is history, and significant enough history to warrant 5-30BP.
There is nothing in the text implying that the debt was incurred at T minus ten minutes to the start of the game, so that interpretation is just as invalid as the interpretation that the character has a long-standing relationship with some organization which has continuously put him/her in their debt.

If a GM wants to make it free points, that is within the rules. If the GM wants to make it the source of constant headaches as past associations crop up in inconvenient ways, that's still entirely within the rules too. Where is this spelled out? right here: "Quality... 5-30BP... indebted." So, 1) it is a defining character trait. 2) it ranges from inconvenient to deadly serious. 3) its nature is owing something to some nasty people.

It's not clear. It's not spelled out. It's just an interpretation, (a form of RAI,) of what is on the page. It's not RAW, unless you want leg breakers showing up saying "Hey! You didn't pay us no money this month... So's we gotta tune you up! ..also that wasn't a double negative!" You know, since the character would still actively have to keep up with his monthly payments of 0 creds according to RAW and you can't actively give somebody nothing... maybe a shady back-alley meeting to hand over an empty cred chip each month? Eventually you get jumped for the empty chip by gangers, but the mob guy takes a bullet, not you. Now the Cosa Nostra blames you...

Alternately, you go with the old:
player - "But I gave you that money last month."
thug - "Which was very generous of you, and don't think I don't appreciate it. However, despite what gifts you might ply me with, you still owe Don Vito his money and his monthly interest. I wouldn't want people to think that I could be bought out by such a paltry sum as 45 Gees..."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And there's nothing wrong with that, KarmaInferno. It's simply lying to tell people that's the RAW. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's not a question of multiple RAW interpretations, which we considered at length earlier in the thread.

Saying that it's no less wrong than other 'interpretations' isn't an argument that it's *right*, Tymeaus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) There is zero possibility that you're 'correct', unless by that you mean that a dev says, 'yes, that's what I *meant*, but didn't write'.

The only things we can be sure are RAW are that you have to pay 10% interest (on 150% of the initial principal, *possibly* reduced by repayment) each month, or they 'may send people looking for you'; and that you must pay karma to have the Negative Quality removed from your character sheet. There is no possibility that the RAW says, let alone means, that you owe favors, or more money, or any other (perfectly acceptable and appropriate) house rule effects.

I think that you are incorrect that my interpretation has ZERO percent of being correct (especially since there are so many others that seem to see the same conclusions here)... The Text has many interpretations... No single Interpretation is going to be the only interpretation... But that is really okay with me... I know what I like about In-Debt, and you know what you like (even if they may, in the end, be the same thing). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

IF you have not paid the Negative Quality off with Karma, you still are in possession of a Negative Quality (Which should be heavily enforced at Any Table out there), The GM has the right to enforce that Negative Quality however he wants, until it is bought off with Karma, or it is changed to something else with equivalent BP costs. The GM runs the World, after all, and everything within it, including those damned criminal organizations...

But it is not really worth arguing over... I can agree to disagree with you here... how about you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

I agree that we disagree, since the beginning. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Just don't misinform people about the rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I agree that we disagree, since the beginning. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Just don't misinform people about the rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It was Not Misinformation (It is a Valid Interpretation of the Rules in the Book when taken as a whole)... But it is no longer worth it either... so... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Badmoodguy88]

Didn't the developers somewhere list the amount of money per mission that a beginner is likely to get and the number was really low? Probably if you got paid very little per mission it would be hard to get by, paying for housing, consumables like bullets, and emergencies like doctor bills. You would end up really pinching newyen for the first couple missions or it would take much longer to pay off and you would end up paying a lot of money in the end. Karma in some ways does equate to newyen. All the inconvenience of skimping by may be worth some karma too. But I do agree that you would normally need to pay off the debt with karma and cash. Also I think in most campaigns runners get payed enough money that paying off the debt in newyen is not much of an ordeal.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Didn't the developers somewhere list the amount of money per mission that a beginner is likely to get and the number was really low? Probably if you got paid very little per mission it would be hard to get by, paying for housing, consumables like bullets, and emergencies like doctor bills. You would end up really pinching newyen for the first couple missions or it would take much longer to pay off and you would end up paying a lot of money in the end. Karma in some ways does equate to newyen. All the inconvenience of skimping by may be worth some karma too. But I do agree that you would normally need to pay off the debt with karma and cash. Also I think in most campaigns runners get payed enough money that paying off the debt in newyen is not much of an ordeal.

Yeah... the Money Debt is easy to pay off for In-Debt... The most difficult part is always going to be the Karma Debt Payment...

[Saint Sithney]

Didn't the developers somewhere list the amount of money per mission that a beginner is likely to get and the number was really low? Probably if you got paid very little per mission it would be hard to get by, paying for housing, consumables like bullets, and emergencies like doctor bills. You would end up really pinching newyen for the first couple missions or it would take much longer to pay off and you would end up paying a lot of money in the end. Karma in some ways does equate to newyen. All the inconvenience of skimping by may be worth some karma too. But I do agree that you would normally need to pay off the debt with karma and cash. Also I think in most campaigns runners get payed enough money that paying off the debt in newyen is not much of an ordeal.

Use 12,200¥ from the 15,000¥ of a 15 Bp In Debt Quality in order to buy a custom Luxury lifestyle and 12 hits on your starting nuyen test.
Chances are you'll then start out with about 24,000¥ in pocket cash. Immediately pay off the debt, ending up with free BP and free money.

(Isn't In Debt banned form Missions games?)

[Karoline]

(Isn't In Debt banned form Missions games?)

I don't think so. I think they simply require you to pay the karma when you pay off the debt. Could be wrong though.

[KarmaInferno]

It is allowed currently in Missions, but when Season 4 starts it will probably be disallowed for new characters.

Existing characters may keep the quality (as the Missions campaign does not alter existing characters if the rules change), but to get rid of the debt completely requires both paying the money owed and the karma cost.




-karma