Max Starting Cash, If you really tweaked everything Options

[Dahrken]

actually they loan it to you at a 10% interest rate

10% mensually. If you translate that into an annual rate this push things up to 214% if compounded, 120% otherwise... IMHO definitively not bank rates.

[Karoline]

10% mensually. If you translate that into an annual rate this push things up to 214% if compounded, 120% otherwise... IMHO definitively not bank rates.

Well, not modern bank rates. This is a dystopia future in which corps run every thing and the common man works more often than not in order to keep a reasonable lifestyle. I doubt they get the kind of loans we get in modern times.

[Kruger]

However, the possibility exists that I am right in my interpretation, and as such it would fall under RAW... at that point, it becomes quite useless to tell me that I am wrong, when there is no evidence to PROVE it...

And since you cannot disprove it, well... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

The purpose of these discussions is to point out different points of view that have meaning... My interpretation is just as valid as yours, and is therefore not WRONG (Meaning it has the possibility to be RAW or Houserule)... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Holy Obi Wan Kenobi Cop Out Defense Batman. LOL.

"What I told you was true. From a certain point of view."


The possibility exists that you might be right and we cannot prove that the reasoning that supports it doesn't exist? Oh Jebus. Now we have to prove that something doesn't exist. Nice. Nevermind you proving that something does exist. We have to prove it doesn't.

Well hey, if it's kept the organized religions going for this long, it might as well work for you huh?


Nevermind that nobody has said you were wrong about anything other than the RAW. Which you are. Incontrovertibly. And you know how we know it is incontrovertible? Because none of you have been able to come up with evidence from any written material. Evidence must be observable, measurable, and empirical. Your house ruling is completely valid at your table. In fact, In Debt is so badly written, your alterations to it might make it much better and less of an out and out exploit flaw. It's terribly written. Which is why there's such an argument over it. Vendetta says that if the NPC with the vendetta is killed, he will be replaced unless the quality is bought off. In Debt says nothing like that. That could possibly be an oversight, but that's speculation. In two years, no errata has been offered for this book...

I really don't understand why you're so dead set on your interpretation being RAW and not simply a house rule. Well, I take that back. I think I understand. However, something being a house rule doesn't make it bad. For example, I think the way Contacts are purchased at Character Generation sucks. I've happily participated in discussions suggesting a better way to do it. In many ways, I'm happier with my solution being a house rule because it demonstrates how much smarter and more awesome I am than the guys who wrote 4th Edition originally. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But it is not really worth arguing over... I can agree to disagree with you here... how about you?

I can agree that you'll never admit to being wrong so that arguing is pointless and this thread is a lost cause and has been for three pages. That's good enough for me.

[Reg06]

I don't know if it has been brought up yet, but depending on how much ware you purchase the qualities that give you free genetech and reduce genetech cost, couple with the quality that reduces bioware/cyberware cost (there is one, right? It's been a while) can get you close to a 400k total.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, the OP asked about cash strictly (for a vehicle), not 'value'.

[Reg06]

Well, the OP asked about cash strictly (for a vehicle), not 'value'.

If you're spending 100k on genetech, and you get a 10% discount you have 110k of genetech. For a vehicle the OP is kind of screwed by the starting cap and no available discounts.

[sabs]

If you're spending 100k on genetech, and you get a 10% discount you have 110k of genetech. For a vehicle the OP is kind of screwed by the starting cap and no available discounts.

His only shot is a gm allowing blackmarket (vehicles) to be available in char gen

[Makki]

so go for black market (gentech) and genecrafted (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Karoline]

so go for black market (gentech) and genecrafted (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Genecrafted, genetic heritage, blackmarket (genetech). 60% discount FTW (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I can agree that you'll never admit to being wrong so that arguing is pointless and this thread is a lost cause and has been for three pages. That's good enough for me.

That is what is funny to me here Kruger... You attempt to inflame me, and yet you failed. I have, MANY TIMES, admitted that I am wrong... When I am wrong....

Since the reading of the topic is so very vague, my interpretation is indeed a valid interpretation... AS is Yerameyahu's, and several others as well... Ironically, we are all RIGHT... all of us have quoted RAW as defined within the parameters of this very vague rule... I happen to like my interpretation better than yours... You disagree... neither of us are WRONG here... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

It is no longer worth arguing...

Have a Nice Day...

[KarmaInferno]

Yeah, I will point out that there is a difference between merely interpreting a rule, and making an actual house rule.

House rules by definition create "new law" where there was nothing before.

Merely interpreting existing text doesn't really count.





-karma

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yeah, I will point out that there is a difference between merely interpreting a rule, and making an actual house rule.

House rules by definition create "new law" where there was nothing before.

Merely interpreting existing text doesn't really count.

-karma

Good point KarmaInferno... I will remember that... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

It depends on what that 'interpretation' is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Kruger]

Merely interpreting existing text doesn't really count.

You can't really interpret text that doesn't exist. What they're doing is adding to the rule. It's house ruling, plain and simple.

What's silly is that there nothing wrong with house ruling. It's not like there's even some kind of stigma against it. Nobody is saying anything negative about it. Heck, it's encouraged and expected because no game system is perfect and not every rule works for every table. So the fact that people are so fervently denying it is rather absurd. I don't agree with all of the house rules suggested, but the good news is, I wouldn't have to enforce them. But Rules as written are rules as written. Even the Rules as Intended is there, because there are multiple examples of other flaws stating the consequences and terms of buy-off where In Debt says nothing extra. It's just that what the writers wrote and intended was retarded and obviously not well thought out or play tested.

It's the dumbest argument ever because we're arguing semantics about a rule that pretty much everyone agrees is terrible.

What's the most bizarre part of this, and Tymea is missing, is that I'm not trying to inflame him or anyone else and nor is Yerameyahu. We're just stating the truth. Sometimes I wish I wasn't such a stickler for the truth, but I am, and it's my nature.

[sabs]

Are we really calling each other idiots over the definition of the word 'is'

Pretty sure this thread has run it's course.

[Saint Sithney]

There is, according to the RAW, no way to pay off your debt.

It is never mentioned. The only payment mentioned is the 10% monthly payment.

So, if you're playing it with no interpretation, only using the words on the page, you can not pay the starting sum back, ever.
It's just like extra rent you have to pay each month until you buy it off with Karma.

Now we're talking flaw.
30 BP for basically having to pay for a middle lifestyle that you can never use? Could be worse; could be better.

[KarmaInferno]

You can get rid of the quality itself by buying it off with Karma, as we have already established.

Technically, you might argue by RAW that you don't actually ever have to pay off the nuyen. You pay the Karma, and In Debt goes away.

Anyone else have the funny thought, though, that "they send legbreakers after you if you don't make the monthly payment" might be interpreted by a wise-ass runner as "They give me money, and every month they provide me entertainment and free gear!"

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



-karma

[Yerameyahu]

It says 'at least' the interest, implying that you can pay more. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Karoline]

Anyone else have the funny thought, though, that "they send legbreakers after you if you don't make the monthly payment" might be interpreted by a wise-ass runner as "They give me money, and every month they provide me entertainment and free gear!"

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-karma

I have kind of thought that before. I'd imagine it would be hard to get together leg breakers that are actually a threat to a good runner.

[Kruger]

There is, according to the RAW, no way to pay off your debt.

It is never mentioned. The only payment mentioned is the 10% monthly payment.

But it is mentioned. The Quality very plainly states "The character then owes" and then says exactly what that is. The character owes principle + 50% with 10% compound interest on the balance.

it doesn't say or imply the character "owes" favors. It doesn't say or imply the character "owes" time spent as the Don's towel boy. It says exactly what it means.

Think about how stupid it sounds to say that the character owes endless favors until they pay off the NQ with Karma. If you borrowed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 30K, then you owe sixty Karma. That's 6-10 runs of giving up 100% of what you earned, on top of a large chunk of whatever money you happen to earn. And on top of that, while your character is gaining absolutely nothing from his activities as a shadowrunner (the player is essentially running in place while his teammates jog ahead), you're getting endlessly hounded by chores and tasks to do for no pay or benefit. It reverses the flaw from being horribly munchkiny for the player to take to being so ungodly punitive that nobody in their right mind would ever take it.

There's absolutely no point for the writers of Shadowrun to create a Flaw nobody would take. Reworded like that, it has no roleplaying value, and it has no mechanical value. A character might take Borrowed Time because they have a fun concept for a doomed character and the extra points are nice. Same with a burnout addict, or they enjoy the challenge and an amnesiac character will be entertaining to play and discover. In all cases, they have a fun role playing challenge, and a mechanical benefit. With In Debt reworded to be the house rule quality "Endless Bitchmonkey" they have no benefit since they will automatically lose all the points they gain from it, and an endless in-game headache for both themselves and the rest of the group. And all for a pittance of money that would barely buy a high end SUV.

So if we assume the In Debt NQ goes by the strict interpretation of its exact text based on precedent of both implied and stated costs based on other qualities, and read the rules for getting rid of qualities exactly as written ("can", and "allow"), then the NQ was just very poorly written and not play tested.

If we assume the In Debt NQ has extra meaning that is not included in its exact text, ignoring precedent of both implied and stated costs, and interpret the rules for getting rid of qualities using words that don't exist in the rulebook in any shape, form, or implication ("all" and "must"), then the quality is so horribly written as to be completely undesirable on both a role playing and mechanical sense, and the writers included it just to fuck with players and consume space on the page.

[Saint Sithney]

It says 'at least' the interest, implying that you can pay more. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It also says that the interest compounds.
Maybe you can only pay more than the monthly interest in order to cover a previous missed payment or to get the total owed back down to the starting amount. Maybe not. Since it does not explicitly say, all one can do is interpret what is on the page. If it is an interpretation, then it is no longer RAW, but RAI.

[Saint Sithney]

I have kind of thought that before. I'd imagine it would be hard to get together leg breakers that are actually a threat to a good runner.

Don't break their legs.

Break their car.
Burn their house.
Break their friend's legs.

There are lots of ways besides a Surprise KO to hurt a runner.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug*. They wouldn't bother saying 'at least' if they meant only interest. To repay is part of the definition of to owe. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mooncrow]

You can't get rid of the negative consequences of a negative quality without spending karma.

You can't pay off the debt without spending karma any more than you can just quit your Day Job or shoot your Dependents in the head.

Yes, it makes it terrible - I think we've established that it's terrible in any interpretation you care to give it.

How is this confusing?

[Saint Sithney]

Think about how stupid it sounds to say that the character owes endless favors until they pay off the NQ with Karma. If you borrowed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 30K, then you owe sixty Karma. That's 6-10 runs of giving up 100% of what you earned, on top of a large chunk of whatever money you happen to earn. And on top of that, while your character is gaining absolutely nothing from his activities as a shadowrunner (the player is essentially running in place while his teammates jog ahead), you're getting endlessly hounded by chores and tasks to do for no pay or benefit.

The favors aren't endless. They are micro-runs specifically for that runner. Each one gives a karma reward directly applied against paying off the quality. That way, the character's growth doesn't fall behind the rest of the team unless he/she specifically uses regular run karma to pay it off. The idea is to cause only that player to suffer the negative consequences of their debt. You might have missed that idea in my post. I didn't really highlight it.

The favors are opportunities. Maybe if a character refuses too many times, the In Debt quality drops a level and the character gains a 5pt Enemy flaw. There are a lot of ways to work this out with roleplay which can be backed up with written mechanics.