Max Starting Cash, If you really tweaked everything Options

[Kruger]

Which in this case would be the ability to even pay back the dept, the book only has rules for paying interest.

Actually, the book says "at least" the interest. And the book also gives the total amount owed. Arguing that because the book doesn't specifically state that the balance is what would be more than "least" is being intentionally obtuse because it defeats the understanding of the nature of a loan that is assumed. The game doesn't bother to explain what compound interest is either, so the amount just increases every month by ten percent of the character's interest in some unnamed compound. Heck, it doesn't say what a compound is. Is this ten percent of the character's interest in a collection of buildings? Ten percent of the character's interest in certain facets of chemistry?

If we're going to go by everything the book doesn't say, then it's a perfectly valid interpretation to say the character's owed amount never increases because there's no quantifiable monetary equivalent to a character's interest in compound. But nobody interprets it that way because we know what loans are, how they work, and to suggest that with a straight face would earn very deserved derision. Just as anyone who suggests the loan cannot be paid off because the book doesn't specify that the payments count against the balance is very deserving of the same derision.

Not to mention the crux of the opposing argument cannot be that the debt cannot be paid off because we can't assume to know how debts work, and that the debt must include favors because we know how debts work, lol. Your exception both proves the rule, and destroys it entirely. Something of a paradox. And since we have to assume that the rule works in some way, on some level, you cannot be correct.

[The Jopp]

If you really want to play out the ’criminal’ angle you can always add some modifiers when aquiring gear and vehicles, especially vehicles.

Stolen -10
Item Used -20
Used in crime under investigation -20
Black Market Pipeline -10

Total Price Reduction for vehicle -60%

[KarmaInferno]

Something of a paradox. And since we have to assume that the rule works in some way, on some level, you cannot be correct.

It is a paradox BECAUSE it is written badly.

What do they say about assuming anything?


You are extrapolating stuff based on your reading of the rules.

Same as they other guys.

It's not an unreasonable extrapolation that you came up with. You make sense.

But it's still not what the text actually says.

I think the disconnect is that the "house rules" you state others keep coming up with are their attempt to come up with a 'fluff' explanation of how the rules AS WRITTEN could actually work. It is attempts to rationalize how the quality, as badly written as it is, could function as written.

Whereas you keep positing how you think the rules SHOULD work, what was INTENDED.

They're BOTH house rules.

The RAW states that, GM houseruling aside, there is one default method for a player to remove a quality. Paying off the karma. In Debt specifically tells us how to pay off interest, but never actually outlines that you can pay off the whole debt.

By strict rules default, the only way to be permanently rid of the quality or it's effects is paying off the Karma.

It is "bad rules writing" BECAUSE it partly assumes the reader knows about loans and interest and other outside information. Game rules really shouldn't be written that way - the rule should work even if you don't know a damn thing about loans.



-k

[StealthSigma]

If you really want to play out the ’criminal’ angle you can always add some modifiers when aquiring gear and vehicles, especially vehicles.

Stolen -10
Item Used -20
Used in crime under investigation -20
Black Market Pipeline -10

Total Price Reduction for vehicle -60%

That doesn't affect your max starting resources. It just affects the value of your max starting resources. Make sense?

In your example that just makes the value of 1 nuyen worth 2.5 nuyen for the purpose of vehicles but you still have 1 nuyen.

[The Jopp]

That doesn't affect your max starting resources. It just affects the value of your max starting resources. Make sense?

In your example that just makes the value of 1 nuyen worth 2.5 nuyen for the purpose of vehicles but you still have 1 nuyen.

True, but depending on character it affects your total value of resources.

[StealthSigma]

True, but depending on character it affects your total value of resources.

Right, but you still only have 330,000 nuyen for resources. Just because you could stretch that into 825,000 nuyen worth of vehicles doesn't mean you have 825,000 nuyen in resources. You still have just 330,000 nuyen.

And now I'm getting cyclically redundant.

[Mäx]

Right, but you still only have 330,000 nuyen for resources. Just because you could stretch that into 825,000 nuyen worth of vehicles doesn't mean you have 825,000 nuyen in resources. You still have just 330,000 nuyen.

If you get a vehicle worth 825k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) then its functionally same as if you really had 825k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) -

[Doc Chase]

Well, save that it's a stolen vehicle used in a crime under investigation you got from a 'friend'.

"What's that red stain in the back?"
"Would you believe boysenberry jam?"
"No."
"Strawberry milkshake."

[Traul]

If you really want to play out the ’criminal’ angle you can always add some modifiers when aquiring gear and vehicles, especially vehicles.

Stolen -10
Item Used -20
Used in crime under investigation -20
Black Market Pipeline -10

Total Price Reduction for vehicle -60%

Why do I think of ware when I read this?

"Yes, officer, I know my fingerprints have been found on the crime scene...
BUT THIS ARM WAS NOT MINE AT THE TIME!" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[StealthSigma]

If you get a vehicle worth 825k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) then its functionally same as if you really had 825k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) -

Nope, because that 1 nuyen that can buy 2.5 nuyen worth of vehicles can still only buy you 1 nuyen worth of guns or ammunition. In reality, no character is going to spend every potential nuyen solely on one category, thus saying you can get "X value of stuff for Y nuyen" is pointless since that X value is going to change on a character by character basis. Thus the only value of consideration for the original question is the RAW nuyen total you can acquire for resources, which is 330,000 nuyen.

[Traul]

Sure, but only the Black Market Pipeline is restricted to one category. Other modifiers can always apply. OK, maybe the GM will not accept used ammo (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[StealthSigma]

Sure, but only the Black Market Pipeline is restricted to one category. Other modifiers can always apply. OK, maybe the GM will not accept used ammo (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Which still creates a wildly varied cross section of possible value from the starting resources.

Also, I don't think "object was used in a crime" can be applied as much as people do.

Let's say I mug someone and bean them upside the head with my pistol. I used the pistol in a crime. If I sold that pistol to someone and they in turn sold it to another person, should that second person get the 20% discount for it being used in a crime? I say not for at least two reasons.

The victim very probably didn't know what the gun was.
The victim certainly didn't know the serial number for the gun in order to uniquely identify it.

I could even say the same applies to weapons that are fired. Forensics will be able to pull a slug but they need casings on the scene in order to find the weapon that fired the round. Caseless ammunition? Fugitaboutit.

The 20% discount for the object being used in a crime can and should only apply if there's a reasonable way that the object could be linked to the crime. That's why I think the 20% discount will -mostly- apply to vehicles (not drones) because they would be the most easily linked to a crime. It also applies a very real detriment to the runners for taking the discount.

[Mäx]

Nope, because that 1 nuyen that can buy 2.5 nuyen worth of vehicles can still only buy you 1 nuyen worth of guns or ammunition. In reality, no character is going to spend every potential nuyen solely on one category, thus saying you can get "X value of stuff for Y nuyen" is pointless since that X value is going to change on a character by character basis. Thus the only value of consideration for the original question is the RAW nuyen total you can acquire for resources, which is 330,000 nuyen.

You do know that the question was later clarified to be spesifically about getting money to buy a vehicle?

[StealthSigma]

You do know that the question was later clarified to be spesifically about getting money to buy a vehicle?

I don't have the patience to sift through 10 pages of Kruger and someone(s) else bitching at each other over paying off the In Debt quality. Something that has NOTHING to do with the thread's topic aside from the fact that In Debt gives you money.

[Kruger]

By strict rules default, the only way to be permanently rid of the quality or it's effects is paying off the Karma.

Ignoring all the other rehashed mumbo jumbo, this is where it all falls apart.

Because this has been proven to be not true, and as the crux of your argument, is its failing point.

[Doc Chase]

I could even say the same applies to weapons that are fired. Forensics will be able to pull a slug but they need casings on the scene in order to find the weapon that fired the round. Caseless ammunition? Fugitaboutit.

I believe that SR4 even says the majority of ammunition is now caseless.

[KarmaInferno]

Ignoring all the other rehashed mumbo jumbo, this is where it all falls apart.

Because this has been proven to be not true, and as the crux of your argument, is its failing point.

How is it not true?

Default rule: You can have up to 35 points of Negative Qualities.

Default rule for removing Negative Qualities: Pay double the BP value in Karma. Possibly you may be required to do other stuff depending on GM whims, but this isn't spelled out and as such isn't useful to the debate.

Yes, the GM can also simply rule the quality away, but the GM can rule that pink elephants come flying out the character's bum too. GM fiat is not a useful argument when discussing RAW. Which is what everyone else is discussing, not RAI.

The standard rules tell us that if the GM allows negative qualities to even be removed, ultimately by general default whatever else happens you must pay twice the BP value in Karma in the end.

Some qualities have specific rules where you can adjust or remove the effects of the quality by other means, but those only apply to the specific quality they are listed in.

In Debt tells us that you owe X amount and that you must pay Y minimum every month to avoid additional negative effects. It really does not tell us anything else game-mechanic wise.

The GM can rule that you need to pay off the nuyen debt as well, but ultimately you still need to use the standard "pay double the BP value using Karma" to be rid of the quality and it's effects.


-k

[Mäx]

I don't have the patience to sift through 10 pages

Then could you maybe not bitch at people who have actually read the topic at hand.
God i hate people who post without reading the topic, if you cant be bothered to read the topic, then theres no need for you to post in it.

[The Jopp]

Why do I think of ware when I read this?

"Yes, officer, I know my fingerprints have been found on the crime scene...
BUT THIS ARM WAS NOT MINE AT THE TIME!" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

See. never buy second hand ware from shady fixers.

[sabs]

Which still creates a wildly varied cross section of possible value from the starting resources.

Also, I don't think "object was used in a crime" can be applied as much as people do.

Let's say I mug someone and bean them upside the head with my pistol. I used the pistol in a crime. If I sold that pistol to someone and they in turn sold it to another person, should that second person get the 20% discount for it being used in a crime? I say not for at least two reasons.

The victim very probably didn't know what the gun was.
The victim certainly didn't know the serial number for the gun in order to uniquely identify it.

I could even say the same applies to weapons that are fired. Forensics will be able to pull a slug but they need casings on the scene in order to find the weapon that fired the round. Caseless ammunition? Fugitaboutit.

The 20% discount for the object being used in a crime can and should only apply if there's a reasonable way that the object could be linked to the crime. That's why I think the 20% discount will -mostly- apply to vehicles (not drones) because they would be the most easily linked to a crime. It also applies a very real detriment to the runners for taking the discount.

Object Used in a Crime means more:
Object is cataloged in a Law Enforcement Database as having been used in a crime.

[StealthSigma]

Object Used in a Crime means more:
Object is cataloged in a Law Enforcement Database as having been used in a crime.

And for that object to be in such a catalog it would need meet two criteria. Law enforcement would need to be able to uniquely identify the object and the object would need to be the subject of an open case.

[Doc Chase]

And for that object to be in such a catalog it would need meet two criteria. Law enforcement would need to be able to uniquely identify the object and the object would need to be the subject of an open case.

If it were, it means that the weapon in question was confiscated and logged into evidence, and then subsequently 'disappeared' or was 'destroyed', then released by enterprising mooks back into the urban wild.

That's what I take from the price bonus.

[Neurosis]

The RAW states that, GM houseruling aside, there is one default method for a player to remove a quality. Paying off the karma. In Debt specifically tells us how to pay off interest, but never actually outlines that you can pay off the whole debt.

By strict rules default, the only way to be permanently rid of the quality or it's effects is paying off the Karma.

It is "bad rules writing" BECAUSE it partly assumes the reader knows about loans and interest and other outside information. Game rules really shouldn't be written that way - the rule should work even if you don't know a damn thing about loans.
-k

Okay, I need to say something here as a writer of rules (not for SR). This is FAR from bad rules writing on a clarity level.

The character is indebted to a third party, usually an underworld
syndicate, large gang or corporation, chosen by the player
with gamemaster approval. For every 5 BP taken, the character
receives an extra 5,000¥ at character creation; this money can be
above and beyond the normal 50 BP cap for gear. The character
then owes her creditor that much plus another 50 percent. The
amount owed increases 10 percent every month, as compound interest.
If the character is unable to pay at least the interest amount
each month, the creditor may send someone looking for her.

Okay, I admit that I am joining this argument without fully understanding it was about, but...this indicates to me that the loan MUST be paid back before the negative quality can be removed with karma. The fact that it is a negative quality indicates it must be bought off with Karma. The BOLDED TEXT (which does not require any knowledge of anything, since everyone understands the concept of being indebted) indicates the debt must also be paid off. It is not a bad rule because it is unclear. I can't even mentally picture the GM who would let the quality go away for JUST THE KARMA with the established in-game debt not being paid off. And while I can imagine a GM who would let the quality go away for just the money, that would be a clear violation of the rules about negative qualities. A loophole in this case is that once the principal and the interest is paid off, there is no REASON to pay Karma for the quality to go away because it doesn't DO anything any more.

It is a bad rule because it gives you 30 BP and 30,000 Nuyen for almost nothing.

I don't disagree that 'Bad Rep' negative quality spells it out more clearly:

[quote]A character with a Bad Rep has a dark and lasting stain
on her reputation in the shadow community and even beyond.
Something she did, or was falsely accused of doing, in the past
has stuck and permanently tainted the way people perceive her.
The character starts play with 3 points of Notoriety which cannot
be removed or decreased except by confronting and resolving the
source of the bad reputation. Only then may the Bad Rep quality
be bought off with Karma.[/quote]

It is very easy as a writer of rules text to assume a modicum of common sense and a willingness to make reasonable interpretations on the part of the player base. I think that In Debt is a bad rule on a BALANCE level but I think on a clarity level it is nowhere near as bad as you are making it sound.

[Kruger]

No, people who are arguing the language of the rule says the loan cannot be paid back/doesn't say it can be paid back, are just being intentionally obtuse for the sake of argument. I'm fine with that. It's been identified as trolling and moving on. The language is very clear and only requires basic outside game knowledge of how loans work mathematically.

Yes, the problem is that the rule says you get 30 BP for the cost of 15K nuyen plus whatever interest accrues on 45K. It's really cheap unless your campaign is so low cash that you can't make that money fast enough.

The alternate version people have provided as their own house rules force the character to pay back the money, plus the interest, plus the Karma on buying off a NQ which will have no game effect, which means they get 60 Karma's worth of headaches all for the minor benefit of getting to spend it at character creation. That's way too expensive, and it breaks the precedent set by all other qualities in that getting rid of it would require a loss of the benefit as well as retention of the negative effect. For every other quality, the trade in buying it off with Karma is losing the benefit and also losing the negative effect.

The one place that you're misreading the rules is that nowhere does it say that qualities must be bought off with Karma. There's not even one use of the word "must" in the entire section on improving characters, let alone the paragraph that outlines Negative Qualities. The whole section on Character Improvement is riddled with the words "should" and "can" on purpose because there are no hard and universal rules about how it is done or what the GM is required to do aside from giving math on the various numerical costs. This is a common misconception among players it seems. In fact, a GM doesn't even have to allow a character to buy off a quality at all. He just "can". Likewise there is no reference that a quality "must" be bought off with Karma, because by default they cannot be gotten rid of without GM consent, and there are multiple examples of qualities that are not bought off with Karma at all.

Really what you shouldn't be able to picture is a GM that would allow In Debt as written as a quality because it's way too broken. Because, according to the rules, paying it off with just the money is all you have to do.

[X-Kalibur]

Maybe I got lost somewhere but last time I checked the In Debt flaw was only worth 10BP, not 30.

<edit> nevermind, its 5BP per 5000 nuyen