Max Starting Cash, If you really tweaked everything Options

[Kruger]

But what it comes down to is that the player has to want to get rid of an NQ to pay Karma for it. A player might have motivation to get rid of an Enemy or an Addiction or Flashbacks. As written, the character can just retain In Debt forever at no extra cost or headache. The debt is for (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) alone. Nothing else. Everything else is a house rule.

That's all I'm saying. I honestly wouldn't allow it as written either. But Yerameyahu (glad he was only one post up) was right about the RAW, and that was the only point I was making about all the house rules. And I took issue with many of the proposed house rule fixes because they don't make sense either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 30K is nothing to an organization like the Mob or the Yaks. If the character actually paid back 150%+ of the principle, they'd have no reason to hold anything further over the head of the character. Especially the Yaks, who are all about the appearance of propriety and honor. A debt like that that can never be "repaid" would be an entirely different flaw and likely had very little to do with cash. Or at least that little amount of cash. When you owe a debt like that, often the lender has no interest in collecting back the monetary investment.

[Neurosis]

But what it comes down to is that the player has to want to get rid of an NQ to pay Karma for it. A player might have motivation to get rid of an Enemy or an Addiction or Flashbacks. As written, the character can just retain In Debt forever at no extra cost or headache. The debt is for (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) alone. Nothing else. Everything else is a house rule.

What if a GM were to make the interest on the debt so insurmountably unfair that the player could never pay off the principal all the way? That would be a way of making the quality worse without house ruling anything, right?

[Yerameyahu]

Well, that's still a house rule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's (Principal*1.5)*10%. Nothing *wrong* with house rules, but the point is that In Debt is broken as written… and that OP should *definitely* use it if he simply must have that extra 30k.

[Mooncrow]

But what it comes down to is that the player has to want to get rid of an NQ to pay Karma for it. A player might have motivation to get rid of an Enemy or an Addiction or Flashbacks. As written, the character can just retain In Debt forever at no extra cost or headache. The debt is for (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) alone. Nothing else. Everything else is a house rule.

That's all I'm saying. I honestly wouldn't allow it as written either. But Yerameyahu (glad he was only one post up) was right about the RAW, and that was the only point I was making about all the house rules. And I took issue with many of the proposed house rule fixes because they don't make sense either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 30K is nothing to an organization like the Mob or the Yaks. If the character actually paid back 150%+ of the principle, they'd have no reason to hold anything further over the head of the character. Especially the Yaks, who are all about the appearance of propriety and honor. A debt like that that can never be "repaid" would be an entirely different flaw and likely had very little to do with cash. Or at least that little amount of cash. When you owe a debt like that, often the lender has no interest in collecting back the monetary investment.

Sigh, there are plenty of rules examples that say you can't get rid of the negative effects of a quality unless you pay the karma first. There's nothing in the wording of the quality that exempts it from that.

From a Formalist perspective (and for rules, you can't really use any other) the "at least" in the In Debt description would be covering a circumstance where you spent karma and cash to pay down the principle.

There are plenty of RC qualities that could be gotten rid of in-game without paying karma from a logical perspective (Dependents, In Debt, Day Job, Enemies, etc) but the rules say otherwise.

[Neurosis]

Well, that's still a house rule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's (Principal*1.5)*10%.

Wow. That is...not a lot of 'points' (in the mob sense of the word) on the loan considering it's a 30 point negative quality.

[Yerameyahu]

I'm sure the argument goes, 'the negative effect is the 10% interest; I pay 10% of the remaining 0¥'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But, again, it doesn't matter which interpretation is right: either In Debt is brokenly good, or brokenly *bad*, right?

[Karoline]

I don't know what the argument is about, there is general consensus (to an amazing degree) that the pure RAW of in-debt is beyond horrid.

The main ways to fix this are:
1. Enforce buying off the quality when you pay back the loan (which cripples character growth)
1a. As 1, but the payoff is gradual. (There is still character growth, but the character will be (up to) 60 karma behind the rest of the group in exchange for losing money)
2. Enforce trading in the quality for 30 BP of other qualities when you pay back the loan (Which makes In-Debt nothing but a money sink and letting the GM pick a ton of qualities for you)
3. Enforce randomly owing favors, in addition to the money (Which is totally out of left field)
4. Make it 0 BP (A pure boost to chargen funds in exchange for having to pay it back in game. Potentially useful if you just need that little bit extra to squeeze in a couple extra pieces of equipment, or you want to simulate a money problem with that initial debt)

So, 1 sucks, 1a sucks, 2 sucks. 3 is reasonable, but is an entirely different quality really. 4 is... well, 4 is a loan.

Now, if you wanted a real 'in-debt' quality, then you make it a Han Solo debt. 5 points per level, for each level, you must give 10% (or 5% maybe) of all income to your debtor to pay off your debt. The debt never actually gets paid off unless karma is spent to remove the quality (or levels of the quality). Bam! In-debt as it should have been.

Make an optional rule (not a quality) that says you can take out a loan of up to 30k in chargen funds. Any loan taken out translates into a debt of 150% of the value of the loan, with 10% monthly interest. Bam! Additional money option as it should have been.

[Yerameyahu]

Nice. I can see some kind of 'income tax' working. You'd need some fluff justify how they *know* what your (secret criminal off-the-books) income is, but that's just details. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Dumori]

Hell maybe they don't but it will bite you in the ass if they think you are underpaying them all they have to do is ask your fixer ~how much is X making

[Mooncrow]

I'm sure the argument goes, 'the negative effect is the 10% interest; I pay 10% of the remaining 0¥'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But, again, it doesn't matter which interpretation is right: either In Debt is brokenly good, or brokenly *bad*, right?

Heh, I suppose that argument could be made (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) But yes, strictly speaking it's brokenly bad. As usually played, it's brokenly good. Either way, it's a bad quality. Some good ideas in this thread to make it not-bad though.

@Karoline - I pick nits like an amphetamine-fueled chimp - it's just what I do (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Karoline]

Nice. I can see some kind of 'income tax' working. You'd need some fluff justify how they *know* what your (secret criminal off-the-books) income is, but that's just details. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Well, in the case of my in-debt quality, it would have to be to some kind of criminal organization who would be capable of keeping tabs on you when you do runs and such. Mob, Yakuza, etc. And even if they don't keep direct tabs on you, they will always 'hear' that you've just made a big score.

That may be the biggest problem with loans in SR, is the ease with which a runner could slip out of a loan. I mean, all they need to do is go to a bank with a fake SIN with a good credit score (6k max cost) and take out the biggest loan they can (like maybe a 2-300k house loan), transfer the funds to a black account, and then ditch the SIN. Bam, they made 294k nuyen in a couple of days.

Or heck, there are plenty of people now-a-days running around with 50k or 100k or higher in debt (just listen to a debt consultation ad some time). Just get a fake SIN, run up a ton of charges on dozens of credit cards and such, and then drop the SIN. Maybe the Gunz-R-Us stand in the black market doesn't take credit cards, but you could get all kinds of other stuff.

[Saint Sithney]

The character is indebted to a third party, usually an underworld
syndicate, large gang or corporation, chosen by the player
with gamemaster approval.

define:indebted

# indebted(p): owing gratitude or recognition to another for help or favors etc
# indebted(p): under a legal obligation to someone

The quality then mentions money and credit, saying that this money is loaned and must be paid back with vig or there will be consequences.

I can understand how you might assume that "indebted" means cash debt, because that is what is laid out in the description. However the very first sentence of quality description tells you that the character is indebted to the mob, etc. It says this in plain language. As a GM, it is your business to interpret the text as you see fit.

HUR HUR HOUSERULE not withstanding, until you pay off the Karma you are still indebted to the mob. Money alone does not change this.

[Dumori]

Well, in the case of my in-debt quality, it would have to be to some kind of criminal organization who would be capable of keeping tabs on you when you do runs and such. Mob, Yakuza, etc. And even if they don't keep direct tabs on you, they will always 'hear' that you've just made a big score.

That may be the biggest problem with loans in SR, is the ease with which a runner could slip out of a loan. I mean, all they need to do is go to a bank with a fake SIN with a good credit score (6k max cost) and take out the biggest loan they can (like maybe a 2-300k house loan), transfer the funds to a black account, and then ditch the SIN. Bam, they made 294k nuyen in a couple of days.

Or heck, there are plenty of people now-a-days running around with 50k or 100k or higher in debt (just listen to a debt consultation ad some time). Just get a fake SIN, run up a ton of charges on dozens of credit cards and such, and then drop the SIN. Maybe the Gunz-R-Us stand in the black market doesn't take credit cards, but you could get all kinds of other stuff.

Yeah just make sure you payed for that apartment you got it all sent to with that SIN and always disquised your self when using that SIN. Just incase the corps decide to make you the warning sign.

There was a fraud case hit the new recently over here in uk like that in less than a decade they had fruaded a few mil from various banks. One real thing you can do with the ability to juggle cerdit is take out a new X lone each month to pay the payment of the last one back that money in an account for Y years then for those Y years you are making the initial lone amount plus a lot of interest. Will need paper trail hiding and 12*y good SINs so will need some start up funds it's also rather not fun.

[Medicineman]

If the character actually paid back 150%+ of the principle, they'd have no reason to hold anything further over the head of the character.

Well, the Char pays back the Money ingame that means he wants to ged rid of the NQ
The Rules say : to ged rid of a Disadvantage you have to pay back in Karma

The example of Shooting your Dependants to ged rid of them is the same (and a Good one too) shure ,ingame you god rid of them but outgame You're breaking the rules .
Same with In Debt. If you pay it back only in ¥ you're breaking the Rules(that clearly say that you can only ged Rid of your Disadvantage by A) creating an Ingame Situation to ged rid of it B) GMs approval C) paying in Karma for it) .

@Makkis Post
Thats exactly how I handle It with my Char "Nox" Ork Rigger who desperately wanted a "Ligter than Air-Aircraft"
He took In Debt and with every Run he's paying back in Karma and ¥ simultanously

Hough!
Medicineman

[Makki]

Now, if you wanted a real 'in-debt' quality, then you make it a Han Solo debt. 5 points per level, for each level, you must give 10% (or 5% maybe) of all income to your debtor to pay off your debt. The debt never actually gets paid off unless karma is spent to remove the quality (or levels of the quality). Bam! In-debt as it should have been.

I like it, I'll bring it up, when I build a new Mage. He won't need money anyway...
He's running the shadows to pay his debt

[Kruger]

Sigh, there are plenty of rules examples that say you can't get rid of the negative effects of a quality unless you pay the karma first. There's nothing in the wording of the quality that exempts it from that.

From a Formalist perspective (and for rules, you can't really use any other) the "at least" in the In Debt description would be covering a circumstance where you spent karma and cash to pay down the principle.

I don't know why you're sighing. You're the one who continues to argue an untenable point not supported by the rules, or any reasonable interpretation of them, lol.

And actually, in terms of word usage, "at least" refers to an absolute minimum. "At least" means that the character, as an absolute minimum, has to pay the 10% compound interest on the amount owed. "At least" would never mean "this, in addition to".

Wow. That is...not a lot of 'points' (in the mob sense of the word) on the loan considering it's a 30 point negative quality.

That was my original point. The only other 30 point NQ in the game is the Burnout level of addiction which kills you if you don't buy it off with roleplay and Karma. In Debt is broken as all hell, haha.


And Saint, you can argue semantics all you like. However, the Quality is very specific in what the debt is, and the game mechanics associated with it. Catlike says that players gain +1 to Shadowing and Infiltration. However Merriam Webster defines Catlike as "resembling a cat" so you can assume that Catlike just means you're stealthy and nimble but in fact you also grow whiskers.

The Quality says specifically what is owed. "That much plus another 50%". Not "That much plus another 50% and some favors, and whatever the GM dreams up arbitrarily."

Conversely, the Burnout level of addiction very specifically says that Essence loss is at a rate determined by the GM. So the cases where the mechanics of a Quality are arbitrary are spelled out.

[IKerensky]

I had a character that was maxed in debt.
The very first mission, I made enough money to pay the whole thing off at once.

And unlike Han.. I did (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And you DID pay the karma cost to remove the Disadvantage too ? because if you dont then you are still in debt. 'Ok, I guess it would cover the interest... so see you next week for the payment'.

[Mooncrow]

I don't know why you're sighing. You're the one who continues to argue an untenable point not supported by the rules, or any reasonable interpretation of them, lol.

And actually, in terms of word usage, "at least" refers to an absolute minimum. "At least" means that the character, as an absolute minimum, has to pay the 10% compound interest on the amount owed. "At least" would never mean "this, in addition to".

I sigh because the rules I'm quoting are clear, and that you aren't getting it means I'm not expressing myself well enough. I'll try to spell it out though.

The only written way that a GM "can allow" a player to buy off a negative quality is by paying the karma for it. Period.

There are a multitude of examples that you cannot get rid of the negatives to a quality without first paying karma to do so.

There is nothing that exempts "In Debt" (or Dependents, or Day Job, or Enemies) from the previous rules.

The "at least" implies the ability to pay more than the 10%. However, from a Formalist interpretation (which is what you use for rules and laws) the implication of paying more is there to cover the karma + cash paying down of the principle. It cannot be a blanket pass to pay off the principle without paying the karma first.

[Saint Sithney]

And Saint, you can argue semantics all you like. However, the Quality is very specific in what the debt is, and the game mechanics associated with it. Catlike says that players gain +1 to Shadowing and Infiltration. However Merriam Webster defines Catlike as "resembling a cat" so you can assume that Catlike just means you're stealthy and nimble but in fact you also grow whiskers.

The Quality says specifically what is owed. "That much plus another 50%". Not "That much plus another 50% and some favors, and whatever the GM dreams up arbitrarily."

In b4 mods. Don't worry guys, Kruger and I are aren't going to get out of control. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Anyway, we all know RC is full of garbage. The folks who wrote it have said as much. However, it's not just a case of semantics.

I'll break down why I feel the way I do about it.

So, sentence by sentence we have:
1)The character is indebted to a third party, usually an underworld
syndicate, large gang or corporation, chosen by the player
with gamemaster approval.

The character owes some third party. Let's just say the mob, for convenience sake.

2)For every 5 BP taken, the character
receives an extra 5,000¥ at character creation; this money can be
above and beyond the normal 50 BP cap for gear.

Resolved at chargen. Not really a play issue beyond its relevance to the next sentence.

3)The character then owes her creditor that much plus another 50 percent.

Refers to the money above and how much is owed. Information only

4)The amount owed increases 10 percent every month, as compound interest.

This is the condition of the debt. It increases by 10% of the unpaid amount, compounded.

5)If the character is unable to pay at least the interest amount
each month, the creditor may send someone looking for her.

Consequences for not paying back money owed by at least the amount of interest.

So, 2 is resolved at chargen. 3,4 and 5 are obviously resolved by paying back money.
Sentence 1 not necessarily so.

You can pay back all of the money, setting the compound interest to 10% of zero. This means that one needs to pay nothing to keep the creditor from sending goons. This does not negate sentence 1 though. The only thing that negates sentence 1 is paying off the Karma.

So, until you buy off the quality with Karma, you are still indebted to the mob. You may be indebted for 0 nuyen, but you are still indebted to the mob. As a GM, I say that means demand for personal favors, on and on until the player gets fed up with it and pays off the Karma. It's not so different from how the actual mob works. They lend you money only to buy you out. "You remember how we helped you out when you needed ____? Now it's your turn to help us out."

[KarmaInferno]

You borrow money from the Mob, you owe them for Life.

Who's life depends on whether you've paid off the flaw with Karma.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)



-np

[sabs]

And you DID pay the karma cost to remove the Disadvantage too ? because if you dont then you are still in debt. 'Ok, I guess it would cover the interest... so see you next week for the payment'.

The quality specifically says how much you owe. 45K, 10% a month interest.
It doesn't say.. oh that's just interest if you pay it all off. I'm still going to slowly pay off the karma cost, but really. interpreted the way you have it, it's incentive never to pay it off.

[IKerensky]

Well if you consider how often the players care to pay back for other disadvantage it wont make a lot of difference...

[sabs]

Personally I would get rid of indebt
and instead allow players to go up to 75bp in resources.

I miss the priority A resources :/

[Kruger]

I sigh because the rules I'm quoting are clear, and that you aren't getting it means I'm not expressing myself well enough. I'll try to spell it out though.

Your condescension is amusing, if misplaced. You have yet to "quote" a rule. For someone who is trying to toss around fancy terms like "formalism" (which you've hilariously misused or misunderstand), you're forgetting that to quote something, you have to repeat it word for word. Which you haven't done. I told you exactly what page 271 in SR4A states. You're telling me that there is different language than what is used, but not showing me where to look it up. Of course, that's because there is nowhere to look it up.

Yes, the only way a GM can allow a character to buy off a NQ is to pay Karma. However, the game does not anywhere, and in any language say that NQs have permanent effects other than what is described in them. If you take Amnesia, for example, you don't continue to forget stuff. The quality is 10-25 BP, and lasts only as long as it takes for the character to discover his past. Heck, you don't ever even have to buy Amnesia off, because the character will have always forgotten his past, even if he finds out a lot of the details about it. Many of the Qualities may be broken and may be poorly conceived, but they are all very specifically worded to avoid this kind of confusion some of you have (except for Distinctive Style which gets half a page and still says nothing, lol). So, yes, the GM can allow a character to buy off an NQ. Nowhere does it say what the penalties are for not buying one off. The NQs have very specific mechanics. A non-magical character with Sensitive System who never buys any cyber or bioware doesn't suddenly get cancer because the GM thought he wasn't being penalized enough and hadn't bought off the quality. Neither does a Scorched character suddenly become an alcoholic because he stays away from BTLs and never hacks anything with Black IC. A character with Nano Intolerance who never uses Nanotechnology doesn't suddenly develop a painful rash if he stands next to somebody who does. A character with a mild addiction and decent attributes can pass resist tests pretty much indefinitely, and doesn't suddenly become a burnout.

Saint, you've affixed yourself on the first sentence of the NQ when you've missed clearly the sentence you detailed as 3)

The character then owes her creditor that much plus another 50 percent.

The NQ delineates exactly what is owed in no uncertain terms. The Made Man Quality delineates specifically what the trade-off is for gaining a 12 point group contact. If In Debt had more language and more effects, they'd be written there. Elf Poser tells the player what happens in non-game mechanics. As written, nothing happens to a character once the monetary debt is paid off and as written there are no consequences for not buying off the quality.

You're free to house rule all you want on In Debt. I encourage it because it's a stupid, broken NQ that gives way too many BP for way too little cost. But that's what you're doing. House ruling. You're not interpreting, you're not adjudicating, or whatever you imagine is being done. You're creating, you're expanding, you're re-writing.

And with that, now that this has devolved into semantics and obstinacy, I bow out. There's nothing more productive to come from this.

[Mooncrow]

Your condescension is amusing, if misplaced. You have yet to "quote" a rule. For someone who is trying to toss around fancy terms like "formalism" (which you've hilariously misused or misunderstand), you're forgetting that to quote something, you have to repeat it word for word. Which you haven't done. I told you exactly what page 271 in SR4A states. You're telling me that there is different language than what is used, but not showing me where to look it up. Of course, that's because there is nowhere to look it up.

If you don't see what I'm saying at this point, then my condescension isn't misplaced in the slightest.

Read all of the Augmentation negative qualities, remembering that it was the first book to come out with negative qualities that you could get rid of in-game easily. Then check out the Impaired (Attribute) and Enemies sidebars in RC. There are other places, but forgive me if I don't look them all up.

Heh, misunderstood. That's pretty funny.