Pure Adept vs bioware Adept - anyone has good houserules, to make the pure Adept more viable? Options

[Karoline]

Well, skillwires 5. In honesty, most characters will actually exceed their augmented reaction with MBW 3, so you don't quite get the full value out of it. You do still get an extra point or two out of it. Really depends on how much you need to worry about essence.

[sabs]

I thought MBW 3 = Skill wires 6?

MBW 1 = 2
MBW 2 = 4

It makes a bit of a difference.
With Optimized, and the other option.
I can have 12 Rating 5 equivalent skills going with skill wires 6, but only 10 with skill wires 5.

Yeah, for most people mbw3 is overkill, still in delta it's only 2.5 essence. You have 4 points roughly of cyber essence to spend so.

[Karoline]

MBW 1 = 2
MBW 2 = 4

Correct and correct, but MBW 3 still only gives 5. The highest skillwires can go is 5, and I'm guessing they just didn't want it outshining actual skillwires.

[sabs]

Correct and correct, but MBW 3 still only gives 5. The highest skillwires can go is 5, and I'm guessing they just didn't want it outshining actual skillwires.

Still 10 rating 5 skills for 'free' karma wise is nothing to sneeze at.

[Karoline]

Still 10 rating 5 skills for 'free' karma wise is nothing to sneeze at.

True, but you are looking at spending 500k. Still, if you're talking about deltaware stuff and maxing out essence, 500k likely isn't a huge issue. Notable, but not insurmountable. No edge use could suck though.

[sabs]

Through in the Expert Skill wire system
which at least, lets you reroll using edge.

Yes, we are assuming money is not an object.

I'm actually tempted to make a super-bad guy augmented soldier from the future.. based on this concept.
Add in a Spur so he can get 5ips in the meat!
Mwhahahahaha

[Makki]

Well, skillwires 5. In honesty, most characters will actually exceed their augmented reaction with MBW 3, so you don't quite get the full value out of it. You do still get an extra point or two out of it. Really depends on how much you need to worry about essence.

that's what Genetic Optimization (Reaction) is for

[Karoline]

Through in the Expert Skill wire system
which at least, lets you reroll using edge.

Yes, we are assuming money is not an object.

I'm actually tempted to make a super-bad guy augmented soldier from the future.. based on this concept.
Add in a Spur so he can get 5ips in the meat!
Mwhahahahaha

Yep, which is the good use of edge anyway (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Karoline]

that's what Genetic Optimization (Reaction) is for

Good point, though that is another .2 essence.

[Thanee]

rating 5 skills

Are there rating 5 skillsofts now? I thought the limit is rating 4... probably in Unwired... havn't read that yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Neurosis]

No matter how you spin it, the amount of bonuses you can squeeze into an Essence point or two worth of ware is just amazing. The equivalent in Power Points just don't compare in any way, and Adepts use Magic attribute for so little there is hardly any trade off.

Does anyone know of some good house rules that remedy it? I've been thinking about making Attribute Boost better, or maybe some sort of Adept Skill Threading like technomancers have (that won't work with augmented bonuses), but maybe someone has something that works already?

I really, really think that this is an issue that takes care of itself within the game's rules and that essence costs and Nuyen costs are pretty nicely balanced. While the essence cost itself for certain bioware is incredibly low, as an Adept you are losing 10 or 20 BP to the 'ware BEFORE calculating the Nuyen cost of the ware. And that nuyen has got to come from BP which now isn't being used to purchase skills, attributes, etc.

I think the pure adept is made stronger if he focuses on his strengths, on the abilities that have a good "Points to Power" conversion rate. Things like "Improved Attribute" are worthless because of their high cost compared with even alpha grade muscle replacement, but Improved Ability is better and Critical Strike is better still. Critical Strike is a straight DV increase for one level per .25 Power Points. Very few things in the game give you that kind of efficiency. Its upper limit gets even better if you're not losing one or two points of magic to 'ware.

I don't know, I guess it really depends what kind of adept you want to make. For something like a "Machine Gun" adept who handles things more like a traditional samurai, 'ware is looking like a strong sideline. But for your traditional punching based adept, going pure is probably better. You might not match Johnny Wires on IP but you should be able to beat him on damage output. Also it makes sense from a flavor standpoint.

In short, whenever I build a pure adept and a cybered adept with the same BP level they always wind up at approximately the same level of power.

[Neurosis]

Burning Question: Can Adepts use Power Foci? If not, where does it say so.

[sabs]

Are there rating 5 skillsofts now? I thought the limit is rating 4... probably in Unwired... havn't read that yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

No they max as rating 4, but you can get them optimized for a +1 DP bonus.

[Dahrken]

Burning Question: Can Adepts use Power Foci? If not, where does it say so.

Yes they can, but it's not very useful for them as unlike Mage they actually make very few tests where their Magic score is relevant.

[Ascalaphus]

Pure Adept: Improved Reflexes II (3 Magic) = 30bp
BioAdept: Synaptic Boosters II (1 Essence, 160K (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ) = 10bp(lost Magic)+32bp(money) = 42bp

More expensive; but worth thinking about because you have a potential 2 more Magic at CharGen to assign to Adept Powers because it's not getting eaten by Improved Reflexes. I think it's an interesting tradeoff.

I don't have a book at hand to consider more examples; but is the situation really that unbalanced?

[Karoline]

I don't have a book at hand to consider more examples; but is the situation really that unbalanced?

Yeah it is.

Muscle toner is likely the biggest offender.

[sabs]

Muscle Toner +4 agility for .8 essence (.4 if you take TypeO or just buy it in deltaware)
Improved Attributes +.75 per level, unless you're going over your natural max in which case each point is 1.5 per level.

That's.. a HUGE difference.

[Ascalaphus]

Ah, that's pretty rough yeah. But isn't Muscle Toner an Availability of R*5 or something? I seem to remember that you couldn't go above rating 2 at CharGen..

[sabs]

Ah, that's pretty rough yeah. But isn't Muscle Toner an Availability of R*5 or something? I seem to remember that you couldn't go above rating 2 at CharGen..

They are indeed rating*5 R so 20R which means they're totally doable if you take the 5 point restricted gear. Course, then you can't have taken Type O.. So there are sacrifices to be made. Youd have to pay the full essence cost for now.

But it's not like you're likely to buy the Agility power (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And so you buy only the +2 right now, with Type O, and you upgrade later.

[Glyph]

If you want to make "natural" adepts more competitive, I would keep it simple. In most areas, adepts are competitive with 'ware. The two main areas they aren't are Attribute improvement and initiative passes. So make improved Attribute cost 0.50 per level, including going over the maximum, and make improved reflexes cost a flat 1 point per level. You can still save by, for example, getting synaptic booster: 2 and muscle toner: 4. But the "natural" adept is competitive. I would recommend against making it quite as good, because the adept getting bioware also has to spend resources buying all of that 'ware, too.

[Neurosis]

Yes they can, but it's not very useful for them as unlike Mage they actually make very few tests where their Magic score is relevant.

So it does not give them extra Power Points?

Muscle Toner +4 agility for .8 essence (.4 if you take TypeO or just buy it in deltaware)
Improved Attributes +.75 per level, unless you're going over your natural max in which case each point is 1.5 per level.

That's.. a HUGE difference.

I agree that this is one specific area in which pure can't keep up with 'ware.

However, Muscle Toner 4 costs 21 BP (I am counting both Restricted Gear and the point of Magic lost to it). This 21 BP turned into power points can't buy you more points of Agility, that's true. But it can buy you some really cool stuff if you invest it into Power Points and buy Adept abilities that are more point-efficient, like Improved Ability and Critical Strike.

Also, no starting character can afford Deltaware Rating 4 Muscle Toner.

[Mäx]

If you want to make "natural" adepts more competitive, I would keep it simple. In most areas, adepts are competitive with 'ware. The two main areas they aren't are Attribute improvement and initiative passes. So make improved Attribute cost 0.50 per level, including going over the maximum, and make improved reflexes cost a flat 1 point per level. You can still save by, for example, getting synaptic booster: 2 and muscle toner: 4. But the "natural" adept is competitive. I would recommend against making it quite as good, because the adept getting bioware also has to spend resources buying all of that 'ware, too.

I'm not that sold on the discount to improved reflexes as many of my adept builds allready get their IP:s from the power, because synaptic booster is so fraking expensive, level 2 cost over half your starting money cap, to say nothing about rating 3 that cost almost all of it and a resricted gear quality to boot.
One massive advantage the power has over ware(even if you don't go the super fast 4IP guy route) is that you can upgrade it just by getting the 1,5 powerpoints that rating 3 cost over rating 2 instead of requiring that you have 240K in cash to buy rating 3 synaptic booster and that also cost you an other point of magic over rating 2(unless you have biocompatibility and 960k to get it as betaware)

[Faraday]

Also, no starting character can afford Deltaware Rating 4 Muscle Toner.

Not to mention that the surgery to implant the stuff has an availability of 24.

[IKerensky]

Reason why choose the power above the ware :

1- You cant use meta-magic with the ware
2- You can more easily go with power than ware without being scan/detected/disabled.
3- It is more logical/thematic and thus provide relationship bonus with other adepts (NPCs).

Thoses are advantages that cannot be quantified by essence/karma/nuyens but thoses are differences that can go from minor to excessively important depending on the GM/Campaign.

Simple example : my campaign is in France sometimes... there using 'ware for non medical or non state business is absolutely prohibited, foreigners are to wear constraint and deactivation buttons and removal of thoses are harshly punish. Result : Adepts are happy, SAMs and Cybered had to take risk or accept limitation of their power. That is a balance you cant quantify because it entirely depend on the scenario/campaign but it does count.

Another example : some NPCs factions have a very strong hate of cybernetics, while they favor adepts (Triads) when dealing with them you will probably regret choosing the essence way.

*1- I was refering to somatic control or Infusion by example. Centering I would also house rules cannot benefit for skills provided by 'ware. But that enter HR domain... or at least RAI.

[Mäx]

Another example : some NPCs factions have a very strong hate of cybernetics, while they favor adepts (Triads) when dealing with them you will probably regret choosing the essence way.

Becouse they can obliviously tell just by looking that i have muscle toner 4 and synaptic booster 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)