No matter how you spin it, the amount of bonuses you can squeeze into an Essence point or two worth of ware is just amazing. The equivalent in Power Points just don't compare in any way, and Adepts use Magic attribute for so little there is hardly any trade off.

Does anyone know of some good house rules that remedy it? I've been thinking about making Attribute Boost better, or maybe some sort of Adept Skill Threading like technomancers have (that won't work with augmented bonuses), but maybe someone has something that works already?

reduce Increased Physical Attribute cost to a constant 0.5 up to augmented maximum.
make attribute boost a free action and different attributes can be boosted simultaneously adding the drain values together and one common duration

Hum, is a mystic adept with 1-2 points into spellcasting magic better than a pure adept ?

Is an augmented human better than a standard human ?

Why should a pure adept be equal or above an augmented adept ?

Isn't the problem into the fact that augmentation and powers are far too redundant and that there is nothing very specific that can be done only with one of them ? Isn't something you can only do with thoses 2pts of power ?

Is the trouble the same for a PhysAd, a Social Adept, a Stealth Adept ?

I dont really see a problem here, especially as some of the Canon adepts use cyber/bioware while initiating to keep on the rating.

Almost any house rule that boost the pure adept is goning to boost some cyber/bio adepts so leave it as is.

You could allow pure Adepts (those with Essence 6) to use the optional rule, that they can gain a PP worth of powers instead of obtaining a Metamagic technique.

Bye
Thanee

double essence costs for cyber/bioware for magical active types.

I don't think cyber/bio adepts are a problem, on the contrary that could be an interesting path too. The problem is how underpowered pure adepts are in comparison. I'd prefer buffing pure adepts to put them on an equal footing.

I've been thinking about something along the lines of this too. Attribute Boost really seems like a key power, where the main drawback is the simple action needed. It will also give a different feel to pure and bio adepts.

Have you playtested this?

Increased attribute is really killed by its limitations. If you can't advance over natural maximum without paying a crapload people SHOULD in fact use Cyber/bio. So basically it would be best to remove the natural limit entirely, and just make it cost 0.5x overall. Since it doesn't stack, making it cheap enough that peple won't want bio is the key, IMHO.

If you limit it so it isn't compatible with bonuses from spells, cyberware or bioware, and/or it depends on the Magic attribute, it could work out fine.

One key point if you even the bio adept with the pure adept then why take bio EVER?

0.5 on its own is still way too expensive. You need something else too, like buffing Attribute Boost (which only works with Increased Attritbute).

Something like that would be really nice for those adepts in situations where 'ware grants no bonuses. Like shapeshifters, who by RAW can only benefit from Delta grade 'ware in their critter form.

If no one EVER takes bio, then it isn't even, is it?

Bio is for the mundanes?

I personally love the double essence cost for awakened meta-humans.

You can make a 4 essence Adept/Magician with 2.5 points of 'ware.

That is a HUGE amount of bonuses one can rack up.

Mix 'ware and Magic characters are vastly more powerful than their counter-examples.
Even a pure Magician would not mind trading in 1 point of essence, for 1.25 points of bonuses.

Trauma Dampener
genetic increases to stats
cerebral boosters
nano hive

You mean a cyberlimb to put the hive in?

Nanohive has a stupid high essence cost which is even more absurd when you consider the minimal capacity it costs.

Love the idea of an Adept Threading. Off the top of my head I could see it as an Adept specific Metamagic Technique. Or a number of skills equal to Magic you can Thread. If you wanted to go with the Skill Boost power as a reference you could make it Active Skills are a 1 for 1 ratio, while Combat Skills ares a 2 for 1 ratio. Not sure what the roll would be, obviously Magic would be part of it though. Maybe it's time the Adepts got their own skills, like the other groups? Sorcery, Conjuring, Compiling, and something for Adepts? Hmm...

One of the limits of (any) ware is that you only have 6 Essence. Granted, you can tweak out all the Genetic mods with delta Bioware and so on, but still, you only have so much you can cram in. While progressively expensive Karma-wise (not to mention the amount of gameplay to accumulate said Karma), there is no rule to stop my Adept from eventually having a Magic Attribute in the 20's or 30's.

Maybe Adepts could just get a +1 to Magic Attribute when they gain an Initiate grade. Would cut the Karma cost, making it more appealing, instead of looking elsewhere for a bit more edge over the competition.

You could come up with a karma cost for Phys. Ad. powers, instead of relying on points from Magic Attribute. Those points could work at chargen, but afterwards you could just pay a set number of karma points to equal 1 point (or .5 or .25, depending on the power). Also you could use the Magic as the limit for powers that have levels, keeping it relevant and needed.

Have no idea how this should work with Mystic Adepts. Considering the split in how the Magic works I don't see a problem, but then again I'm not really trying to make it the end all, be all in bad-assness. I'm sure some one here will come up with a wicked combo and shoot the idea of "just let it work like this for them, too" out of the water.

Yeah, becouse there are only so many compatible pieces of ware in the books.
Seriously if the money isn't an issue, there aren't enought ware in the books that you can install to run out of essence, unless you intentionally go with more expensive(essence wise) cyber versions of ware thats availebul as both bio and cyber.

Or if you want something milder, the .5 modifier to the lowest bio or cyber Essence loss can be for Mundane only.

That's a nice idea too.

Cyberware:
cyber forearm (1)
Move by Wire 3 (delta)
Bone lacing (Titanium)
nanohive r6, some sensors


Everything else you get as genetherapy and bioware.

This is of course, assuming money isn't a limiting factor.

Those 4 pieces will put you near the 4 essence loss.
You take biocompatability Bioware, and you cram yourself with cyber essence loss - .01 points of bioware.

I think you can actually take almost every worthwhile piece of bioware in the game, at this point.

And you could reasonably change the MBW to synaptic boosters, and the bone lacing to bone density and the forearm to simply a hand or foot.

Still, having some cyber is useful since you do get that .5 essence cost on whichever is lower.

MBW is +1 dodge, +2 reaction +1 IP per rating. That's +3 dodge better than Synaptic Boosters.
Bone density actually works differently than bone lacing. Also Bone density changes how much you weigh.

Yes, you could get 2 cyberfeet, with a nano hive and skimmer disks, instead of a forearm.

A single cyberfoot can hold 2 nanohives. Don't know why you keep advising more cyber than you really need for the nanohive.

You're right, you lose a point of armor and gain a point of body with bone density over lacing, but you're crazy if you think replacing porous bone with solid titanium doesn't increase your weight as well. Not to mention your bones trigger metal detectors now.

As for MBW, you're right, MBW does have some distinct advantages over the boosters. Besides the extra dodge, which is nice, and the extra reaction, which is possibly overkill, it also gives you high grade skillwires, which can be very handy. The question is if it is worth the huge difference in essence.

the feet are for the skimmer disks
not the nanohives, the nanohives are just a bonus.

Well remember you're also using the huge diff in essence to pay half essence for everything else you're getting.
You're trying to get almost 8 points of essence loss in a 6 point body

Skillwires 6, + the extra reaction. Which is potentially overkill, it's true. Although you can make it less overkill by using genetherapy on your reaction stat.

Well, skillwires 5. In honesty, most characters will actually exceed their augmented reaction with MBW 3, so you don't quite get the full value out of it. You do still get an extra point or two out of it. Really depends on how much you need to worry about essence.

I thought MBW 3 = Skill wires 6?

MBW 1 = 2
MBW 2 = 4

It makes a bit of a difference.
With Optimized, and the other option.
I can have 12 Rating 5 equivalent skills going with skill wires 6, but only 10 with skill wires 5.

Yeah, for most people mbw3 is overkill, still in delta it's only 2.5 essence. You have 4 points roughly of cyber essence to spend so.

Correct and correct, but MBW 3 still only gives 5. The highest skillwires can go is 5, and I'm guessing they just didn't want it outshining actual skillwires.

Still 10 rating 5 skills for 'free' karma wise is nothing to sneeze at.

True, but you are looking at spending 500k. Still, if you're talking about deltaware stuff and maxing out essence, 500k likely isn't a huge issue. Notable, but not insurmountable. No edge use could suck though.

Through in the Expert Skill wire system
which at least, lets you reroll using edge.

Yes, we are assuming money is not an object.

I'm actually tempted to make a super-bad guy augmented soldier from the future.. based on this concept.
Add in a Spur so he can get 5ips in the meat!
Mwhahahahaha

that's what Genetic Optimization (Reaction) is for

Yep, which is the good use of edge anyway

Good point, though that is another .2 essence.

Are there rating 5 skillsofts now? I thought the limit is rating 4... probably in Unwired... havn't read that yet.

Bye
Thanee

I really, really think that this is an issue that takes care of itself within the game's rules and that essence costs and Nuyen costs are pretty nicely balanced. While the essence cost itself for certain bioware is incredibly low, as an Adept you are losing 10 or 20 BP to the 'ware BEFORE calculating the Nuyen cost of the ware. And that nuyen has got to come from BP which now isn't being used to purchase skills, attributes, etc.

I think the pure adept is made stronger if he focuses on his strengths, on the abilities that have a good "Points to Power" conversion rate. Things like "Improved Attribute" are worthless because of their high cost compared with even alpha grade muscle replacement, but Improved Ability is better and Critical Strike is better still. Critical Strike is a straight DV increase for one level per .25 Power Points. Very few things in the game give you that kind of efficiency. Its upper limit gets even better if you're not losing one or two points of magic to 'ware.

I don't know, I guess it really depends what kind of adept you want to make. For something like a "Machine Gun" adept who handles things more like a traditional samurai, 'ware is looking like a strong sideline. But for your traditional punching based adept, going pure is probably better. You might not match Johnny Wires on IP but you should be able to beat him on damage output. Also it makes sense from a flavor standpoint.

In short, whenever I build a pure adept and a cybered adept with the same BP level they always wind up at approximately the same level of power.

Burning Question: Can Adepts use Power Foci? If not, where does it say so.

No they max as rating 4, but you can get them optimized for a +1 DP bonus.

Yes they can, but it's not very useful for them as unlike Mage they actually make very few tests where their Magic score is relevant.

Pure Adept: Improved Reflexes II (3 Magic) = 30bp
BioAdept: Synaptic Boosters II (1 Essence, 160K ) = 10bp(lost Magic)+32bp(money) = 42bp

More expensive; but worth thinking about because you have a potential 2 more Magic at CharGen to assign to Adept Powers because it's not getting eaten by Improved Reflexes. I think it's an interesting tradeoff.

I don't have a book at hand to consider more examples; but is the situation really that unbalanced?

Yeah it is.

Muscle toner is likely the biggest offender.

Muscle Toner +4 agility for .8 essence (.4 if you take TypeO or just buy it in deltaware)
Improved Attributes +.75 per level, unless you're going over your natural max in which case each point is 1.5 per level.

That's.. a HUGE difference.

Ah, that's pretty rough yeah. But isn't Muscle Toner an Availability of R*5 or something? I seem to remember that you couldn't go above rating 2 at CharGen..

They are indeed rating*5 R so 20R which means they're totally doable if you take the 5 point restricted gear. Course, then you can't have taken Type O.. So there are sacrifices to be made. Youd have to pay the full essence cost for now.

But it's not like you're likely to buy the Agility power
And so you buy only the +2 right now, with Type O, and you upgrade later.

If you want to make "natural" adepts more competitive, I would keep it simple. In most areas, adepts are competitive with 'ware. The two main areas they aren't are Attribute improvement and initiative passes. So make improved Attribute cost 0.50 per level, including going over the maximum, and make improved reflexes cost a flat 1 point per level. You can still save by, for example, getting synaptic booster: 2 and muscle toner: 4. But the "natural" adept is competitive. I would recommend against making it quite as good, because the adept getting bioware also has to spend resources buying all of that 'ware, too.

So it does not give them extra Power Points?



I agree that this is one specific area in which pure can't keep up with 'ware.

However, Muscle Toner 4 costs 21 BP (I am counting both Restricted Gear and the point of Magic lost to it). This 21 BP turned into power points can't buy you more points of Agility, that's true. But it can buy you some really cool stuff if you invest it into Power Points and buy Adept abilities that are more point-efficient, like Improved Ability and Critical Strike.

Also, no starting character can afford Deltaware Rating 4 Muscle Toner.

I'm not that sold on the discount to improved reflexes as many of my adept builds allready get their IP:s from the power, because synaptic booster is so fraking expensive, level 2 cost over half your starting money cap, to say nothing about rating 3 that cost almost all of it and a resricted gear quality to boot.
One massive advantage the power has over ware(even if you don't go the super fast 4IP guy route) is that you can upgrade it just by getting the 1,5 powerpoints that rating 3 cost over rating 2 instead of requiring that you have 240K in cash to buy rating 3 synaptic booster and that also cost you an other point of magic over rating 2(unless you have biocompatibility and 960k to get it as betaware)

Not to mention that the surgery to implant the stuff has an availability of 24.

Reason why choose the power above the ware :

1- You cant use meta-magic with the ware
2- You can more easily go with power than ware without being scan/detected/disabled.
3- It is more logical/thematic and thus provide relationship bonus with other adepts (NPCs).

Thoses are advantages that cannot be quantified by essence/karma/nuyens but thoses are differences that can go from minor to excessively important depending on the GM/Campaign.

Simple example : my campaign is in France sometimes... there using 'ware for non medical or non state business is absolutely prohibited, foreigners are to wear constraint and deactivation buttons and removal of thoses are harshly punish. Result : Adepts are happy, SAMs and Cybered had to take risk or accept limitation of their power. That is a balance you cant quantify because it entirely depend on the scenario/campaign but it does count.

Another example : some NPCs factions have a very strong hate of cybernetics, while they favor adepts (Triads) when dealing with them you will probably regret choosing the essence way.

*1- I was refering to somatic control or Infusion by example. Centering I would also house rules cannot benefit for skills provided by 'ware. But that enter HR domain... or at least RAI.

Becouse they can obliviously tell just by looking that i have muscle toner 4 and synaptic booster 2