Pure Adept vs bioware Adept - anyone has good houserules, to make the pure Adept more viable? Options

[Neurosis]

I know this thread is about adepts and bioware, but I have to go off topic for a minute.

But yeah, when you do the math, having Assensing mages at an airport is really unbelievably expensive. You might do some cost reduction by Summoning/Binding spirits to do the Assensing for you, but I don think that´s practical on the Force 6+ scale you need for reliable Assensing!

Yes, but keep in mind that SPACE FRANCE (or whatever whacky hypothetical country we're talking about) does not CARE that much about reliably detecting bioware because (IIRC) bioware on its own does not have a tendency to make people explode. What they probably REALLY care about is things like cortex bombs, cyberguns, and hand razors which are all things that it would be much easier to reliably detect using assensing.

Also, almost invariably dice roll more hits than you can buy. At least that is what I see happen at my table. So I don't think Reliable = Buying Hits @ 4:1.

Back on Adepts:
If you're a bio-adept, well first off, their astrally perceiving mages should be able to detect that you are an ADEPT which if they're really that strict should be grounds to pull you for additional testing, which would turn up the bioware. (If you're a BIO-ADEPT with MASKING then clearly you are a badass and do whatever you want anyway.)

[Yerameyahu]

Haha, I was intending to use 3:1 as I always do, but I glitched and said 16 dice anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) 12 dice is bad enough, though. I'm not sure why the additional testing would work very much better. How many repeated tests will they make? :/ After all, they don't know how many hits they rolled.

[TheRedRightHand]

Aren't there critters that airport security can use to detect cyberware and bioware? I'm sure there must be. Or high-tech scanners that can do the job. You don't need mages to assence everyone walking through. There are currently dogs that can detect very minute traces of drugs and explosives. Heck, there are dogs that can smell if you have cancer.

By 2070+ they will have machines that can detect if you have even a small amount of metal or cyber in your body, and I am sure they will also have similar ways of detecting bioware.

And that's not even counting awakened critters that have even better senses and high intelligence.

No mages needed for airport scanning of travellers, at least until after the machines or critters have given an alert.

[Neurosis]

More likely there would be a Force 6 spirit Assensing with the mage acting as backup. (Only because I can't imagine a PC or NPC mage bothering with having the skill 'Assensing 6'.) All Force 6 spirits that can assense have 12 dice in it. 12 dice is enough to catch most dangeorus augmentations most of the time (and border control is not infallible in real life).

[Yerameyahu]

TheRedRightHand: detecting cyber is easy. Detecting bioware is not, and shouldn't be. There's no reason to expect, given the absence of it in the rules, a machine or critter that can detect bioware more easily than assensing.

The problem is that there are many kinds of bioware. Those dogs don't 'smell cancer'; they smell a specific chemical product of lung cancer. I think possibly you could, with huge effort, train dogs to detect a specific product line (SK muscle toners, or something nutty like that). So, you'd just have to let a dozen specialized dogs closely sniff each and every passenger. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Karoline]

Haha, I was intending to use 3:1 as I always do, but I glitched and said 16 dice anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) 12 dice is bad enough, though. I'm not sure why the additional testing would work very much better. How many repeated tests will they make? :/ After all, they don't know how many hits they rolled.

No, but there are testing methods which are more accurate. Assensing flags a possible threat, more hardcore testing sees if it is valid or not.

You are correct that they don't know how many hits they got, but they can tell if they got the level of information from the assensing that would include bioware. If they did and no bioware came up, then they're a drug addict or a vampire attack survivor or something else.

It is a good point about adepts. If the French are so concerned about superhumans, I'm sure they would throw restrictions on adepts (and mages and MAs) just as quickly as people with bioware.

And the 3:1 is 'on average' but 4:1 is guaranteed hits. That means a mage with a DP of 9 (to detect lost essence) lets about 33% of the people who have bioware through, which is a really really bad success rate. A mage with a DP of 12 however has a 0% chance of people who have bioware not getting noticed if assensed.

[KarmaInferno]

Either way, you need 16 dice to 'expect' to do it 100% of the time.

And someone with 16 Assensing dice is not going to be working security at an airport.

Hell, someone with half of that probably isn't either.




-karma

[Laodicea]

I happen to agree with the OPs feelings about this issue and present the following possible houserules/solutions.

1. introduce more adept powers. Maybe some of the powers from the Critter or Spirit Powers lists. You get some really fun characters like this.
2. Give an essence virginity geas that allows the adept to have 8 or more power points with 6 magic as long as he doesn't take any Ware.
3. really, both of the above.
4. give the adept a Best Friend Forever contact who happens to be a possession mage. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Remember that (AFAIK), the 'lost Essence' thing is metagaming. It's 4 hits to detect bioware, and they really don't know how many hits they got.

I'm more convinced that spirits would be doing this. Mages are far too rare and valuable for this crap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Karoline]

Remember that (AFAIK), the 'lost Essence' thing is metagaming. It's 4 hits to detect bioware, and they really don't know how many hits they got.

I'm more convinced that spirits would be doing this. Mages are far too rare and valuable for this crap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Assensing table 'know if their essence is higher, lower, or equal to your own'. Assuming the mage has 6 essence (or even if they didn't) that would let them know if the person has lost essence. While they may not call it essence, they would know the relationship between it and getting ware. So, if you have less essence then them, then you've likely got some kind of ware.

Now, a person could get around this by having a datajack along with their bioware, because then the mage would know they have ware, and know they have a datajack, so everything would square up with them. They'd need to get the 4 hits to figure out that there is also some bioware kicking around their body.

So yeah, nothing metagamy about that.

I'm not sure how spirits make it any better. Each mage can only have one summoned spirit at a time, and a spirit that could get the 12 dice needed would be F6, and if you have a mage that can reliably summon and bind F6 spirits, well, I don't think you'd even burn his spirits on something like airport securty, not to mention the 6k in binding resources that would get a handful of services. How long those services would last is up for grabs, but I'd say not longer than 8 hours or so each. I don't think France is that concerned that they're going to pay that kind of extra cash to have the number of spirits that would take just on the off chance that someone walks through the airport with synaptic boosters.

Edit: Actually, given things like dietware and clean matobolism, I think looking for people with essence loss would nail basically everyone, and even looking for bioware would nail most people. It'd be way too huge of a pain for the non-existent benefit. Anyone that is going to go into the country with synaptic boosters isn't going to do it through the main airport.

[jaellot]

So make improved Attribute cost 0.50 per level, including going over the maximum, and make improved reflexes cost a flat 1 point per level.

If I rememer right in 1st Ed. the boosted reflex power was cheap, but also had to pay for Reaction seperately, too. Now it's your Initiative score, but maybe something similar. I also think the 1,2,3 is a bit low, but if I were to run with something like this I would just tinker it to fit, or make it seperate powers like I just mentioned.

For the Att. Imp. stuff would you drop the cost of the Attribute Boost a bit, too? It's only a temporary thing, but by making the permenant boost cheaper it kinda waters the other down.

I like this idea, though, because the Imp. Reflexes power is a beast on cost.

[Yerameyahu]

I know the rule we're talking about, Karoline; I introduced it to the discussion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) AFAIK, that *is* metagaming; the NPCs don't necessarily understand Essence in this way, and you can lose essence from many things, in very small amounts. It's probably a privacy violation (and of probable cause), too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You never know about that in a dystopia and/or foreign country, though.

I assumed the gov't would have the long-term bind the spirits to the task of assensing passengers. It's still better than having that mage do it himself. I agree that trying to detect bioware is a stupid, losing game in the first place; they'd use cyberware detectors and be done with it.

[Karoline]

I know the rule we're talking about, Karoline; I introduced it to the discussion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Are you sure?

Funnily yes they can (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It is called Astral Perception and believe me they have plenty of it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

AFAIK, that *is* metagaming; the NPCs don't necessarily understand Essence in this way, and you can lose essence from many things, in very small amounts. It's probably a privacy violation (and of probable cause), too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You never know about that in a dystopia and/or foreign country, though.

They understand that you can lose essence from ware, so if you have lower than normal essence, then there is a good chance you have ware. After all, a full list of things that reduce essence:
Ware
Burnout level addiction
HMHVV
Serious Injury (optional rule)

The last three should be fairly easy to notice, so if they aren't currently snorting something, aren't burning in the sun, and aren't missing a limb, its quite likely they have some form of ware.

Sure, they may not know that getting a datajack costs you .1 essence, but they do know that getting a datajack slightly damages your something that mages can detect with assensing.

And as for privacy violations, no guarentee that France has the same laws we do (in fact, they don't, don't know how similar they are on this issue) and there is even less chance that they would care in a dystopia future, and honestly, there is a really really good chance that it wouldn't be considered an invasion of privacy any more than forcing you to go through a metal detector or scanning your bags is anyway.

I assumed the gov't would have the long-term bind the spirits to the task of assensing passengers. It's still better than having that mage do it himself. I agree that trying to detect bioware is a stupid, losing game in the first place; they'd use cyberware detectors and be done with it.

Good old long-term binding, but yeah, we're in agreement that it isn't something that is likely to get done.

[Yerameyahu]

I agree that it's a good indicator of 'ware, which is why I suggested it in the first place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'm just saying that it's not necessarily as simple as the *game* rules make it. Childhood injuries, old addictions (and, per the fluff, long term bodily strain of any kind) are possibilities… I think we can also assume many perfectly normal medical devices/procedures exist outside the game rules that could impact Essence. As for transgenics, I'm assuming they count as bioware, so no worries there.

My point is that it's our game knowledge that lets us go, 'hmm, no ping on the cyberware scanner, but Essence < 6; bioware'. In 'reality', I'm only guessing that the number of people with 'innocently' reduced Essence is high enough that pulling them all aside is infeasible.

[Karoline]

I agree that it's a good indicator of 'ware, which is why I suggested it in the first place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'm just saying that it's not necessarily as simple as the *game* rules make it. Childhood injuries, old addictions (and, per the fluff, long term bodily strain of any kind) are possibilities… I think we can also assume many perfectly normal medical devices/procedures exist outside the game rules that could impact Essence. As for transgenics, I'm assuming they count as bioware, so no worries there.

My point is that it's our game knowledge that lets us go, 'hmm, no ping on the cyberware scanner, but Essence < 6; bioware'. In 'reality', I'm only guessing that the number of people with 'innocently' reduced Essence is high enough that pulling them all aside is infeasible.

Well, like I said as well (edited in I think, so may have been missed) there is also alot of benign bioware like dietware. Heck, isn't cosmetic surgery an essence drop if it is serious stuff? My point was that they still have bioware, so it is a reasonably reliable method of detecting ware. The problem is the huge amount of bioware out there that isn't a concern that would trip a system like this. I mean how many people traveling to France aren't going to have clean metabolism?

[Neurosis]

Remember that (AFAIK), the 'lost Essence' thing is metagaming. It's 4 hits to detect bioware, and they really don't know how many hits they got.

I'm more convinced that spirits would be doing this. Mages are far too rare and valuable for this crap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It would probably be a team of spirits, supervised by a highly competent mage who is on site to deal with any unexpected contingencies.

[sabs]

Long Term Drug use also drops essence.

Additionaly.. You have ware.. okay.. how many people DO NOT have ware?

Dietware, biosculpting, leonization, a cyberarm to replace the one you lost.
Muscle Replacements, Muscle Toners, Muscle Augmentation because you suffered from Muscular Distrophy or perhaps an accident.
Pathogenic Defense, Tracheal Filters because of some immunodeficiency. Bonedensity because you had osteoporosis.

People who have skillwires because of their job.

the list of 'legal' cyber is almost endless.

[sabs]

It would probably be a team of spirits, supervised by a highly competent mage who is on site to deal with any unexpected contingencies.

Whose summoning that team of spirits?
How many of these Highly competent Mages do you have to do border patrol in airports?

[Shinobi Killfist]

I could see any essence dip being a reason to pull someone aside for a closer look. Sort of like how a one way plane ticket might get you pulled aside, or in the case of my most recent flight me not noticing that my drivers license was expired, but the guard on the flight back did. Pull essence dip boy aside, give him a closer look +3 dice or whatever, if you detect bioware or cyberware you look at their records and see if it squares up. I'd think you'd have a fake ID with plausible fake noncombat cyber/bioware for similar locations the implants happen to be if you were a runner. If you have a cyber arm it would come up as a basic replacement model in your ID, if they hook a diagnostic computer up to it, you'd have basic programs spoofing the fake info. So yes they assence it, but it seems to match what your ID indicates openly, so move along.

[Yerameyahu]

And then you start firing the cyber-grenade-launcher! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Oh, wait. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

Well for Cyberware you had the MAD scanners.

At Rating 6, they detect almost any cyberware.
Really, if you're a shadowrunner you're not coming in on flight 522 from Seattle.

[Muspellsheimr]

p.187 Critical Strike
Change the cost to “0.5 per level”
Add the following sentence to the end of the description:
“This powers level may not exceed half the character’s Magic attribute (round up).”

p.187 Enhanced Perception
Change the cost to “0.5 per level”
Remove the last sentence

p.187 Great Leap
Change the bonus to +2 dice pool modifier per level to jump checks.

p.187 Improved Ability
Change the cost to “0.25 per level”

p.187 Improved Physical Attribute
Change the cost to “0.5 per level”
Change description to:
“With this power, you can increase a Physical attribute. Each level increases the attribute by one, up to the augmented maximum.”

p.188 Improved Reflexes
Change the cost to “1 per level (maximum 3)”

p.188 Improved Sense
Change the description to:
“You have a sensory improvement not normally possessed by your metatype. Available Improved Senses are described here:
Direction Sense: Your sense of direction is so acute you know what direction you are facing, and whether you are above or below the local ground level, with a successful Perception Test.
Improved Scent: You can identify scents in the same way as a bloodhound. You can identify individuals by scent alone, and can tell if someone whose scent you know has been in an area recently with a successful Perception Test. This functions as an Olfactory Booster (p.331) at a rating equal to one-half your Magic attribute (round up).
Improved Taste: You can recognize the ingredients of food or beverage by taste alone. This functions as a Taste Booster (p.331) at a rating equal to one-half your Magic attribute (round up).
Flare Compensation: Your eyes adapt quickly to intense light, allowing you to avoid the effects of flash grenades and similar weapons. This power functions as the flare compensation enhancement (p. 323).
Low-Light Vision: You can see normally in low-light conditions. This functions as the low-light vision enhancement (p.323)
Thermographic Vision: You can see the infrared light spectrum. This functions as the thermographic vision enhancement (p.324)
Vision Enhancement: Your vision is more acute than normal. This functions as the vision enhancement (p.324) at a rating equal to one-half your Magic attribute (round up).
Vision Magnification: You can see distant targets with ease. This functions as the Vision Magnification enhancement (p.324)
Audio Enhancement: Your hearing is more acute than normal. This functions as the audio enhancement (p.324) at a rating equal to one-half your Magic attribute (round up).
Select Sound Filter: You are capable of filtering out sounds. This functions as the select sound filter enhancement (p.324) at a rating equal to one-half your Magic attribute (round up).
Sound Dampening: Your ears are protected from loud noises and adjust quickly to sudden changes in noise level. The sound dampening power functions as the cybernetic damper enhancement (p. 333).
Spatial Recognizer: You can easily locate where sound is coming from. This functions as the spatial recognizer enhancement (p.325) at a rating equal to one-half your Magic attribute (round up).”

p.188 Kinesics
Add the following sentence to the end of the description:
“This powers level may not exceed half the character’s Magic attribute (round up).”

p.188 Missile Parry
Change the description to:
“You are skilled at deflecting slow-moving projectiles out of the air. You receive a +1 dice pool modifier per level to Defense Tests against bows, crossbows, & all thrown weapons. In addition, if your Hits equal or exceed the attackers, you may catch the arrow or weapon & make an immediate thrown attack with it as an interrupt action.”

p.188 Natural Immunity
Change the bonus to +2 dice pool modifier per level

p.189 Pain Resistance
Change the first paragraph to:
“You can easily ignore the effects of pain. Reduce your wound modifiers by your Pain Resistance level.”

p.189 Rapid Healing
Change the bonus to +2 dice pool modifier per level

p.174 Analytics
Change bonus to +2 dice pool modifier per level

p.175 Animal Empathy
Change the second sentence to read:
“You receive a +1 dice pool modifier to all Social Tests made to influence animals (any non-sapient creature).”

p.175 Berserk
Change the cost to 0.5

p.175 Blind Fighting
Change the second sentence to read:
“Reduce all visual penalties by 2.”

p.175 Cloak
Change the description to:
"The adept receives a +2 dice pool modifier per level to resist active Detection spells, and critters using the Search power to locate her receive a -2 dice pool modifier per level."

p.176 Commanding Voice
Remove Commanding Voice

p.176 Cool Resolve
Change the bonus to +2 dice pool modifier per level

p.176 Counterstrike
Change the cost to 0.5
Remove the following from the third sentence:
“The characters level in Counterstrike plus”

p.176 Distance Strike
Change the cost to 1
Change the second sentence to read:
“The powers range is equal to the adept’s Magic attribute in meters, and inflicts damage as normal (including any augmentation or powers).”

p.176 Empathic Healing
Change the description to:
“The adept can heal another by transferring their wounds to himself. As a Complex Action, the adept may make a Magic + Willpower Test, with a negative dice pool modifier equal to the subject’s lost Essence (round down). The adept heals a touched living creature up to 1 point of Physical or Stun damage per Hit, and takes Physical or Stun damage as appropriate equal to one-half the damage healed (round up).
Empathic Healing is subject to the normal restrictions on magical healing.

p.177 Gliding
Change the cost to 0.25

p.177 Iron Gut
Remove Iron Gut

p.177 Iron Lungs
Change the cost to 0.25
Change the description to:
“Iron Lungs grants an adept a dramatically enhanced lung capacity. An adept with Iron Lungs is capable of holding their breath for Magic minutes. In addition, the adept receives a +2 dice pool modifier to resist Fatigue (p.154, SR4)."

p.177 Iron Will
Change the bonus to +2 dice pool modifier

p.178 Living Focus
Change the cost to 0.5
Change the description to:
“Living Focus allows an adept to channel mana in order to sustain a spell affecting him. The adept may sustain any spell targeting solely him, subject to all the normal rules for sustaining spells. The spell’s Force may not exceed the adept’s Magic attribute, & the adept may sustain up to one-half Magic (round up) spells at a single time. While the adept is sustaining the spell, the spell’s caster is not subject to sustaining penalties, & the spell does not end if the caster looses concentration.

p.178 Multi-Tasking
Change the last sentence to:
“Additionally, an adept with Multi-Tasking gains an additional Free Action per Combat Turn.

p.178 Nerve Strike
Change the cost to 0.5

p.179 Pain Relief
Remove Pain Relief

p.179 Penetrating Strike
Change the cost to 0.25 per level
Add the following sentence to the end of the description:
“This powers level may not exceed half the character’s Magic attribute (round up).”

p.179 Power Throw
Change the cost to 0.5 per level
Add the following sentence to the end of the description:
“This powers level may not exceed half the character’s Magic attribute (round up).”

p.179 Quick Draw
Remove Quick Draw

p.179 Rooting
Change the bonus to +2 dice pool modifier per level

p.179 Smashing Blow
Change the cost to 0.5

p.179 Temperature Tolerance
Change the description to:
“An adept with Temperature Tolerance gains a degree of resistance to extreme cold and heat. The adept receives a +2 dice pool modifier to Survival tests made to resist the effects of heat or cold.

p.180 Traceless Walk
Change the cost to 0.5

p.180 Wall Running
Change the cost to 0.5

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

(Only because I can't imagine a PC or NPC mage bothering with having the skill 'Assensing 6'.)

My jaguar adept has Assessing 1, with Mentor Spirit Dark King, the quality perceptive and two levels of improved perception, giving it a net Assessing 5. And still I think is too low and will raise as soon as possible (afet getting the psichometry metamagic).

[Neurosis]

Whose summoning that team of spirits?
How many of these Highly competent Mages do you have to do border patrol in airports?

How large an airport? I would say two, both specializing in Conjuring? But I don't know what size of airport we're talking about.

[Yerameyahu]

Big difference between buying 1 and 6 ranks in a skill, Brazilian Shinobi. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)