Requesting some build help... Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm not missing anything, lol.

You're missing where I said that I think trivializing cyberware takes away from it. I get that the mechanics say that due to the low Essence cost it counts as trivial surgeries. But I'm saying that cutting someone's skull open is hardly superficial, lol. No matter what the mechanics say, it's retarded if it isn't considered invasive. They're opening your skull and hardwiring something to your brain, and then sealing your skill back up with a new hole in it. Just because we find another place where the guys at FanPro screwed the pooch on writing the rules doesn't make the rule make sense. Even FASA covered this in Man & Machine talking about how processes that were neural related suffered twice as much surgery damage.

BTW, NDWaD starts off with the protagonist waking up after having a datajack installed, and it's definitely not out patient. It's not exactly something you would want to have done under local anesthetic, haha. So while it might be "out patient" in the terms that you don't have to be hospitalized and the street doc isn't gonna just let you crash on his couch for a couple days, you're still gonna feel like somebody punched you in the nugget for a while.

And yet there are fluff references that you can go TO THE MALL on your luch hour to have this cyber surgery performed... 4th edition is close to 10 years past the capabilities of "Man and Machine" after all... it has not been trivialized, in my opinion, just advanced beyond what you apparently find comfortable. And NDWaD is set in 2050, which makes it even older than "Man and Machine." I mean really, Augmentation and medical technology have advanced FAR beyond what was available in 2050... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Personally, I like the way that Augmentations have advanced since the game began...

[Kruger]

Except that the idea of nanite and laser surgery dates back to Shadowtech, which is 1e and 2052. Not to mention various arthroscopic technologies that exist today, etc. The human skull and brain, however are still in their latest versions. A datajack is still a hole in your head and wired up to your cortex. And the chips and microboards for the headware deck or implanted commlink still have to get in there somehow. The nanites aren't just fabricating them inside your head. They can't do that, lol. Especially on your lunch hour.

Like I've told other people, if you want to run fast and loose with common sense, be my guest. If your level of knowledge on human physiology tells you that lunchtime brain surgery is cool because the SR4 rules tell you that anything with .2 Essence or less is a superficial procedure, go ahead. It's your game.

I'm just here to offer the voice of reason to those looking for a little more plausibility. Not sure why you seem to take these sorts of things so personally, but this is the second thread where you've attempted to argue a non-point to death.

[Kruger]

The forum realized my point was so solid it posted it twice.

[KarmaInferno]

The problem is, your idea of "common sense"? Even if it's reasonable?

The game doesn't agree with it. The game has datajacks being installed in malls, as stated, like they were an ear piercing.

You have an opinion, fine, but really, people are NOT "wrong" to follow what the game has established as canon.




-k

[Kruger]

I never said he was wrong so you can leave your CapsLock out of your future posts. I said I didn't think it was very believable. Some of you seem to not pick this up. I'm not talking about my idea being RAW. I'm saying the RAW doesn't make sense and even contradicts established 4e canon, which in turn contradicts itself.

[Teryon]

Final thing: a low logic score(2 in this case); actively mean anything detrimental or just that said character isnt much on structured(or 'book') learning?

[KarmaInferno]

I never said he was wrong so you can leave your CapsLock out of your future posts. I said I didn't think it was very believable. Some of you seem to not pick this up. I'm not talking about my idea being RAW. I'm saying the RAW doesn't make sense and even contradicts established 4e canon, which in turn contradicts itself.

Um, wow.

I'm not attacking you. Merely putting emphasis on a point. One word. I could have used bold or italics instead, I suppose, text does not convey very well a mildly emphasized word.

I can understand if I was capitalizing a whole sentence, but yeesh.

We get it. You think the casual surgery idea is stupid. People were just pointing out that it is, in fact, canon.

No need to get hostile about it.

I will go out on a limb and say I haven't observed direct personal attacks on you from man folks in general, not just this thread, so I'm not certain where the harsh is coming from. I'm not sure you intend to come off as such, but you seem, well, kinda angry a lot.



-k

[Kruger]

If "we" got it, then people like Tymea wouldn't argue to the death over it, now would he? He obviously doesn't get it. Whether or not it is canon is irrelevant.

No offense man, but you come off pretty snotty. And since I seem to take the blame if I respond in kind with sarcasm like I would normally do, I just choose to point out where I see you doing it. Maybe you don't mean it, maybe you're just a very poor writer, but I don't buy that. But if I'm wrong, in the future when you respond you should word more carefully and read your posts to see how they look. Don't preface an idea with a reference to my opinion, and then finish it with something that is not my opinion. You inferred that I said he was wrong, and that's not true. I don't like liars, so don't present yourself as one.

[Glyph]

Final thing: a low logic score(2 in this case); actively mean anything detrimental or just that said character isnt much on structured(or 'book') learning?

No, that's what a score of one could mean. Two is just low-average. Note in one of the examples: "Brian doesn't think his character is either antisocial or stupid, so he puts in the minimal 10 BP each to raise them both to 2." The thing to remember about a one or two is that it is just a few karma points away from being a three, so unless you actually plan on leaving a stat low, you don't need to make it a fundamental part of the character.

A character's stats are only a portrait of the character at one moment in time. His physical Attributes might be low because he just recovered from a long illness, or his mental Attributes might be low because his previous life was more sheltered, and he didn't have to think for himself that much. A lot of GMs get up in arms about any Attribute of one, and think that they make the character developmentally disabled. But you actually need to add disadvantages such as infirm or uncouth if you want a character who is that weak in an area. A one is merely the lowest functional Attribute.

[Saint Sithney]

What a low-end logic attribute means for your character is little in the way of academic/technical knowledge, and a less than prodigious memory.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I never said he was wrong so you can leave your CapsLock out of your future posts. I said I didn't think it was very believable. Some of you seem to not pick this up. I'm not talking about my idea being RAW. I'm saying the RAW doesn't make sense and even contradicts established 4e canon, which in turn contradicts itself.

But here is the Thing, Kruger... That is your OPINION... The game world has already established it AS FACT... even if you do not think it is believable, your opinion does not matter to the Structural Reality of the Game World as it is written. As has been pointed out, you are free to have that opinion, but it directly conflicts with the facts of the world as already established...

What more need be said? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Oh, and I DO get it, I just do not have many issues with the Fluff of the Game... so much for your observations there Kruger... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Kruger]

I always, from the beginning, presented it as my opinion. Never anything else. This is why you're foolish for arguing a non-point and you obviously don't get it. But you're absolutely right, nothing more needed to be said. That's why I can't figure out why you didn't stop posting about it on page 2. Well, strike that, I know exactly why you kept posting, lol.

[KarmaInferno]

That's why I can't figure out why you didn't stop posting about it on page 2.

Pot, kettle, black.





-k

[sabs]

I have to admit, implanting a datajack in your lunch hour seems crazy.

[Thanee]

Because you're doing cartwheels and flips and tumbles to get out of the way of bullets and knives and axes?
Dodge is "bob and weave'

So? And why would the one be penalized over the other? Except if the GM arbitrarily wants to penalize it (because he does not like it or whatever)?

Bye
Thanee

[Summerstorm]

It isn't arbitary: Gymnastic dodge is taken under the assumption that it IS more limited than straight dodge, and can be disallowed in MANY circumstances.

[sabs]

Gymnastics Dodge is also much easier to get to really high levels (except of course for MBW giving you that huge +3 dodge bonus).

neo-epo
synthcardium r3
Those give you +4 to your athletics rolls (ie Gymnastics Dodge)

Which you normally cannot get for Dodge (MBW being an extreme exception)

[Yerameyahu]

Not MANY; possibly some.

[Thanee]

It isn't arbitary: Gymnastic dodge is taken under the assumption that it IS more limited than straight dodge, and can be disallowed in MANY circumstances.

And this 'assumption' is stated where in the rules exactly?

There are no requirements to use it (other than obviously being able to move, but that is a requirement for dodging in general).

Disallowing it (and not disallowing Dodge the same) is completely arbitrary.

Besides, while Gymnastics is usually the easier choice (Athletics Group for one, and also has a general use), Dodge is superior in some ways (i.e. you can specialize Dodge against melee or ranged attacks, or you can use it instead of a close combat skill to defend against melee attacks without using Total Defense at all).

@sabs: Synthacardium doesn't improve your chances to dodge attacks in any way. Not sure what "neo-epo" is, but it probably doesn't help either.

Bye
Thanee

[Yerameyahu]

Why not, Thanee?

[Thanee]

The synthacardium adds its rating as a dice pool modifier on all Athletics Tests.

Bye
Thanee

[Yerameyahu]

So? What's an Athletics Test if not a Test that involves an Athletics skill?

And Neo-EPO actually avoids even that: "all tests made with skills from the Athletics skill group".

[sabs]

Wouldn't Gymnastics.. being an Athletics Skill.. I dunno.. qualify?

Neo-EPO is a genetic therapy that improves all tests made with skills from the Athletics skill group by 1.
As Yerameyahu was nice enough to point out.

How exactly does Synthcardium and Neo-EPO not raise your gymnastics dodge?

[Thanee]

When you use Total Defense you do not make a skill test, you roll your defense dice pool with Gymnastics skill added to the total.

Your Gymnastics skill is not modified by those items, so the bonus is not applicable.

When you make a Gymnastics Test you use them, not when you make a Defense Test.

You also do not add your Agility to the roll. If it was a Gymnastics Test, you would.

What does help, for example, is a Reflex Recorder, because it modifies the skill rating directly.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. Ah, I see; havn't read through all that genetech stuff yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

If it were a simple Gymnastics Test, then you would (probably) add Agility, yes. However, there're are plenty of places where you don't roll the Attribute. Mechanically, there's no reason it's not a Defense Test; the book refers to it in that exact language, as you say. It is a Test that includes an Athletics skill, period. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I guess your GM could determine that it's abusive to stack Gymnastics that high and disallow it.