Movement characeters and vehicles? Options

[yesferatu]

Hey guys, I'm having some movement rule issues.

1. How do the 10/25 stats work? Is that 10 normal movement and 25 if you take a complex action running?
2. Does the movement per combat turn (not initiative pass) make any sense?
If you have 3 initiative passes, your max distance is the same as someone with 1.
The book breaks it down as 25/3 = 8 per IP. A character with 1 IP moves at 25 an IP? Is that weird?

3. How does vehicle movement work? I had a player in a van 3 blocks away trying to outrun a patrol car.
The patrol car moves at 10/45 while the van is at 5/10.
Is it even possible for a van that speed to outrun a patrol car?

[Yerameyahu]

1. Yes, Walk/Run. Running is Free Action. Sprinting is a Simple Action, Running Test.

2. It's not really 'per IP'; it's that one person gets only 1 IP during the whole period of time (3 seconds), while another gets multiple IPs.

A character continues to move in the last mode he chose during passes in which he does not have an action. This means a character with only one action, for example, who chooses to walk or run in the first Initiative Pass will be walking or running the same throughout subsequent Initiative Passes. The movement mode can only be changed when the character acts again.

3. Those are Acceleration, not Speed. Walk/Run acceleration rates, and they can be exceeded with a Vehicle Test (as Sprinting).

[Summerstorm]

1: The first number is walking rate: That is when you just normaly move in combat. It just has small modifiers. The second is running, which takes your free action and gives you more modifiers for dodging and lowers your accuracy. THEN you can change it to a simple action to SPRINT (rolling your speed higher)

2: Movement is - and don't kill me, i do it this way... and people really SHOULD - somewhat abstract in SR. Just imagine it that way:

You are at your IP-phase and want to walk around a wall and shoot, then walk further and get into cover. While you MAY have enough movement rate for it (say it would take 5 meters), you will ONLY be in cover at the beginning at YOUR NEXT IP. You don't just teleport through the space.

That means: You walk across the opening, shoot your gun (with modifiers for walking). and be done. THE ENEMY now (if he has an IP to react) can shoot you, after you did, UNTIL your next IP.

To sum it up: You are at your destination AFTER you took your move and begun a new phase.

Of course this isn't really elegant either, for very small distances the system isn't very accurate, but it is for longer ones. And it also help with people "keeping at him", not like that weird movement system in D&D.

3: Vehicle Movement is... weirder. You have Acceleration AND speed. Better read all the rules yourself.

But to give a hint: for trying to outrun something there are chase rules. And yes it is easily possible to outrun something faster. (But the faster one will get positive modifiers of course, just look into your SR20A book: Page 169 (but read before that and after as well)

EDIT: Hm.. did it really take me 10 minutes to write this? Sigh... well, Yerameyahu was first *g*

[yesferatu]

"This rate is the distance the character moves by that method per Combat Turn (not per Initiative Pass)."

"Twitch the elf samurai is chasing down an opponent. He’s an elf, so his Running Rate
is 25 meters per Combat Turn. This particular Combat Turn is three Initiative Passes
long, so he moves (25 ÷ 3) 8 meters per pass. If Twitch stopped running for one pass
to help up somebody his opponent knocked over, then he would only be moving 16
meters that Combat Turn."

This example tells us how fast and how far "Twitch" is moving, but says nothing about the person he's chasing.
According to the above rule, wouldn't two elves both move a max of 25 meters (ignoring any springing actions)?
Does it make sense that a character that gets 3 actions a turn wouldn't run 3 times as fast too?

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, yes it does. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Initiative is reflexes, not movement speed. You get extra *actions*, because you're thinking/reacting faster.

The 3-IP elf could also outsprint the 1-IP one, because he's actively using his faster nervous system to (I dunno) pick better footfalls or something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Whatever the fluff is.

[yesferatu]

"Initiative is reflexes, not movement speed."
So when an adept is moving her arms and legs to hit someone 3 times a turn, it's "thinking/reacting faster" not moving her arms and legs faster?

[Yerameyahu]

Yup. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The body can move that fast, it's just that most people can't tell it to.

Your alternative is people running faster than cars, and cars with riggers/Pilots driving faster than airplanes, and airplanes with riggers/Pilots burning up in the atmosphere. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[yesferatu]

"Your alternative is people running faster than cars, and cars with riggers/Pilots driving faster than airplanes, and airplanes with riggers/Pilots burning up in the atmosphere."

I'm not sure that's such a bad thing.
A perfectly natural cheetah moves at what, like 70 miles an hour?
How fast should a troll with improved reaction, augmented muscles and a bunch of cyberware move?

[Yerameyahu]

The augmented muscles *do* give increased Sprint ability. There are also several mutation/augmentation options for increased movement rate, besides simply choosing to be a troll instead of a human. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The simple fact is that reaction and movement are distinct in SR4. You'll need to refactor everything to make this change. Taking a hit of Jazz will *double* your speed, even if you were Usain Bolt to begin with. Don't forget that all vehicles with a Pilot (i.e., all vehicles) get 3 IPs, as well.

The balance is non-trivial. Trolls are already 50% faster than humans, at 26 MPH before Sprinting. Wires 3 lets this Troll run 105 MPH, before factoring in Sprinting, Celerity, Raptor Legs, Cyberskates, etc.

[Summerstorm]

I think the fastest we got (without violating rules) was like 120 km/h.

And no, more IP don't make someone faster.

[ProfGast]

"Your alternative is people running faster than cars, and cars with riggers/Pilots driving faster than airplanes, and airplanes with riggers/Pilots burning up in the atmosphere."

I'm not sure that's such a bad thing.
A perfectly natural cheetah moves at what, like 70 miles an hour?
How fast should a troll with improved reaction, augmented muscles and a bunch of cyberware move?

Cheetahs can only attain those speeds for short bursts however... I think the number I got was like 31m/s as a measured high over the distance of about 460 meters? That's running for about 14 seconds granted but they don't zoom around at 70 mph constantly...

[yesferatu]

I suppose I can live with characters using extra simple actions to sprint faster than a normal character.
I don't believe a rigger with 3 IPS should be able to drive a patrol car at 540 miles an hour...

[Yerameyahu]

Sprinting is significant, too. Running + Strength with +2m per hit, and that DP can be boosted by a number of factors; even Running 3, Strength 3 can be expected to add 4m to a Human's 25m. That's 15% faster.

Now, I'm not *positive* that multiple Sprints should be allowed at all, because it's clearly under the Movement section, which stipulates the 'Divide by IPs' rule. Possibly, each Sprint test should also be divide (round up?). An expert runner (6+2) troll (strength 10+) could easily add 12m (33%) to his speed with just one Simple Action, after all.

[yesferatu]

Wouldn't it just be up to 2 sprint (simple) actions per ip?

[Yerameyahu]

See, my reading of the rules is that Sprint increases your Running Rate. Your Running Rate is what gets divided by total IPs. Sprint doesn't simply give you extra distance for Simple Actions. So, 1-IP troll gets 35m+(Sprint) for his whole Combat Turn. 2-IP Troll gets 35m+(Spring), half per IP.


What's *not* clear is whether you can make multiple Sprint tests, each adding successively to your Running Rate. Anyone? :/ I assume you can only make one test per Combat Turn, personally. I mis-spoke earlier when I said the 3-IP elf could out-Sprint the 1-IP. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[yesferatu]

So is there any way to increase the distance a character can run over one combat turn?

[Yerameyahu]

Sprint, Celerity, Raptor Legs, Skimmer Discs, Cyberskates…

[Dumori]

Sprint, Celerity, Raptor Legs, Skimmer Discs, Cyberskates…

Movement power.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, I thought about including that, but it's so crazy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[jakephillips]

Movement power.

Yep with a big movement power it is crazy.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Yep with a big movement power it is crazy.

But what kind of spirit would I need to increase running speed? It seems that it has to be an associated spirit, but what is associated with running?

[CeeJay]

But what kind of spirit would I need to increase running speed? It seems that it has to be an associated spirit, but what is associated with running?

Well, Air, Beast, Earth, Water, Guardian and Task Spirits have the Movement Power out of the box. Additionally, Spirits of Man and Plant Spirits can acquire Movement through an optional power.

But perhaps your question is referring to this little sentence?

The critter may increase or decrease the subject’s movement rate within the terrain it controls.

For me, this looks like a copy/paste leftover from 3rd. edition where most spirits that granted movement had a domain wherein they could act. You could say, that for instance a Water spirit's movement power only works when the subject is swimming, or flying in case of an Air Spirit. But don't aks me, what the terrain of a Guardian Spirit is...

-CJ

[RK5]

I'm still fuzzy on this.

If all characters are supposed to move the same speed (assuming a 3 IP player isnt making 3 sprint checks in a round) then what happens when a character moves their full movement rate in the first IP? Are they stuck standing still for their remaining IP?

[Summerstorm]

Only on a battlefield or while getting shot at *g* Hm... i miss domains.

EDIT: He can't move all in one IP. Only a fraction.

[CeeJay]

If all characters are supposed to move the same speed (assuming a 3 IP player isnt making 3 sprint checks in a round) then what happens when a character moves their full movement rate in the first IP? Are they stuck standing still for their remaining IP?

They don't move their full movement rate in the first IP. They will cover a distance equal to their movement rate in one combat turn. If that turn has 3 initiative passes, they will cover a third of that distance each pass even if they cannot act in all three passes.

Have a look at p. 148 SR4A. This is illustrated in the second paragraph of the movement chapter.

-CJ