Hey guys, I'm having some movement rule issues.

1. How do the 10/25 stats work? Is that 10 normal movement and 25 if you take a complex action running?
2. Does the movement per combat turn (not initiative pass) make any sense?
If you have 3 initiative passes, your max distance is the same as someone with 1.
The book breaks it down as 25/3 = 8 per IP. A character with 1 IP moves at 25 an IP? Is that weird?

3. How does vehicle movement work? I had a player in a van 3 blocks away trying to outrun a patrol car.
The patrol car moves at 10/45 while the van is at 5/10.
Is it even possible for a van that speed to outrun a patrol car?

1. Yes, Walk/Run. Running is Free Action. Sprinting is a Simple Action, Running Test.

2. It's not really 'per IP'; it's that one person gets only 1 IP during the whole period of time (3 seconds), while another gets multiple IPs.
3. Those are Acceleration, not Speed. Walk/Run acceleration rates, and they can be exceeded with a Vehicle Test (as Sprinting).

1: The first number is walking rate: That is when you just normaly move in combat. It just has small modifiers. The second is running, which takes your free action and gives you more modifiers for dodging and lowers your accuracy. THEN you can change it to a simple action to SPRINT (rolling your speed higher)

2: Movement is - and don't kill me, i do it this way... and people really SHOULD - somewhat abstract in SR. Just imagine it that way:

You are at your IP-phase and want to walk around a wall and shoot, then walk further and get into cover. While you MAY have enough movement rate for it (say it would take 5 meters), you will ONLY be in cover at the beginning at YOUR NEXT IP. You don't just teleport through the space.

That means: You walk across the opening, shoot your gun (with modifiers for walking). and be done. THE ENEMY now (if he has an IP to react) can shoot you, after you did, UNTIL your next IP.

To sum it up: You are at your destination AFTER you took your move and begun a new phase.

Of course this isn't really elegant either, for very small distances the system isn't very accurate, but it is for longer ones. And it also help with people "keeping at him", not like that weird movement system in D&D.

3: Vehicle Movement is... weirder. You have Acceleration AND speed. Better read all the rules yourself.

But to give a hint: for trying to outrun something there are chase rules. And yes it is easily possible to outrun something faster. (But the faster one will get positive modifiers of course, just look into your SR20A book: Page 169 (but read before that and after as well)

EDIT: Hm.. did it really take me 10 minutes to write this? Sigh... well, Yerameyahu was first *g*

"This rate is the distance the character moves by that method per Combat Turn (not per Initiative Pass)."

"Twitch the elf samurai is chasing down an opponent. He’s an elf, so his Running Rate
is 25 meters per Combat Turn. This particular Combat Turn is three Initiative Passes
long, so he moves (25 ÷ 3) 8 meters per pass. If Twitch stopped running for one pass
to help up somebody his opponent knocked over, then he would only be moving 16
meters that Combat Turn."

This example tells us how fast and how far "Twitch" is moving, but says nothing about the person he's chasing.
According to the above rule, wouldn't two elves both move a max of 25 meters (ignoring any springing actions)?
Does it make sense that a character that gets 3 actions a turn wouldn't run 3 times as fast too?

Yes, yes it does. Initiative is reflexes, not movement speed. You get extra *actions*, because you're thinking/reacting faster.

The 3-IP elf could also outsprint the 1-IP one, because he's actively using his faster nervous system to (I dunno) pick better footfalls or something. Whatever the fluff is.

"Initiative is reflexes, not movement speed."
So when an adept is moving her arms and legs to hit someone 3 times a turn, it's "thinking/reacting faster" not moving her arms and legs faster?

Yup. The body can move that fast, it's just that most people can't tell it to.

Your alternative is people running faster than cars, and cars with riggers/Pilots driving faster than airplanes, and airplanes with riggers/Pilots burning up in the atmosphere.

"Your alternative is people running faster than cars, and cars with riggers/Pilots driving faster than airplanes, and airplanes with riggers/Pilots burning up in the atmosphere."

I'm not sure that's such a bad thing.
A perfectly natural cheetah moves at what, like 70 miles an hour?
How fast should a troll with improved reaction, augmented muscles and a bunch of cyberware move?

The augmented muscles *do* give increased Sprint ability. There are also several mutation/augmentation options for increased movement rate, besides simply choosing to be a troll instead of a human.

The simple fact is that reaction and movement are distinct in SR4. You'll need to refactor everything to make this change. Taking a hit of Jazz will *double* your speed, even if you were Usain Bolt to begin with. Don't forget that all vehicles with a Pilot (i.e., all vehicles) get 3 IPs, as well.

The balance is non-trivial. Trolls are already 50% faster than humans, at 26 MPH before Sprinting. Wires 3 lets this Troll run 105 MPH, before factoring in Sprinting, Celerity, Raptor Legs, Cyberskates, etc.

I think the fastest we got (without violating rules) was like 120 km/h.

And no, more IP don't make someone faster.

Cheetahs can only attain those speeds for short bursts however... I think the number I got was like 31m/s as a measured high over the distance of about 460 meters? That's running for about 14 seconds granted but they don't zoom around at 70 mph constantly...

I suppose I can live with characters using extra simple actions to sprint faster than a normal character.
I don't believe a rigger with 3 IPS should be able to drive a patrol car at 540 miles an hour...

Sprinting is significant, too. Running + Strength with +2m per hit, and that DP can be boosted by a number of factors; even Running 3, Strength 3 can be expected to add 4m to a Human's 25m. That's 15% faster.

Now, I'm not *positive* that multiple Sprints should be allowed at all, because it's clearly under the Movement section, which stipulates the 'Divide by IPs' rule. Possibly, each Sprint test should also be divide (round up?). An expert runner (6+2) troll (strength 10+) could easily add 12m (33%) to his speed with just one Simple Action, after all.

Wouldn't it just be up to 2 sprint (simple) actions per ip?

See, my reading of the rules is that Sprint increases your Running Rate. Your Running Rate is what gets divided by total IPs. Sprint doesn't simply give you extra distance for Simple Actions. So, 1-IP troll gets 35m+(Sprint) for his whole Combat Turn. 2-IP Troll gets 35m+(Spring), half per IP.


What's *not* clear is whether you can make multiple Sprint tests, each adding successively to your Running Rate. Anyone? :/ I assume you can only make one test per Combat Turn, personally. I mis-spoke earlier when I said the 3-IP elf could out-Sprint the 1-IP.

So is there any way to increase the distance a character can run over one combat turn?

Sprint, Celerity, Raptor Legs, Skimmer Discs, Cyberskates…

Movement power.

Yeah, I thought about including that, but it's so crazy.

Yep with a big movement power it is crazy.

But what kind of spirit would I need to increase running speed? It seems that it has to be an associated spirit, but what is associated with running?

Well, Air, Beast, Earth, Water, Guardian and Task Spirits have the Movement Power out of the box. Additionally, Spirits of Man and Plant Spirits can acquire Movement through an optional power.

But perhaps your question is referring to this little sentence?

For me, this looks like a copy/paste leftover from 3rd. edition where most spirits that granted movement had a domain wherein they could act. You could say, that for instance a Water spirit's movement power only works when the subject is swimming, or flying in case of an Air Spirit. But don't aks me, what the terrain of a Guardian Spirit is...

-CJ

I'm still fuzzy on this.

If all characters are supposed to move the same speed (assuming a 3 IP player isnt making 3 sprint checks in a round) then what happens when a character moves their full movement rate in the first IP? Are they stuck standing still for their remaining IP?

Only on a battlefield or while getting shot at *g* Hm... i miss domains.

EDIT: He can't move all in one IP. Only a fraction.

They don't move their full movement rate in the first IP. They will cover a distance equal to their movement rate in one combat turn. If that turn has 3 initiative passes, they will cover a third of that distance each pass even if they cannot act in all three passes.

Have a look at p. 148 SR4A. This is illustrated in the second paragraph of the movement chapter.

-CJ

"If that turn has 3 initiative passes, they will cover a third of that distance each pass even if they cannot act in all three passes."
This is sort of the reason I started this thread.

After reading that rule, I got the impression that someone with 3 IPs is actually moving at 1/3 the speed of someone with 1 IP.
If a character has 1 IP, they move their full movement on that IP.
At the end of their first action, they have moved 10 yards.

If a character has 3 IP, they move 1/3 their movement each IP.
At the end of their first action, they have moved 3 yards.

That just seems wrong.

That's because it's not what happens. They move their full Movement over the course of the Combat Turn; their 1 IP is merely when they choose that movement. For cases when it matters, a character has not moved their full distance at their end of their *action*.

Obviously, this can get messy in certain situations, because the initiative system is a little abstract with regard to timing (just ask about Suppressive Fire, etc.). If you're in a situation where it *matters*, go ahead and divide everyone's movement out into IPs (that is, divide into the largest IP total of everyone present). See, if there's a 1-IP and a 3-IP guy running together, then the whole Combat Turn can be said to have 3 IPs; Mr. One can only act on the first one, but he's still there for 2 and 3. Both guys move 1/3 at each of the 3 IPs (whether or not they get an *action* then).

Nononono... They don't move all there movement at their IP.

They WILL HAVE moved all their move at the beginning at their NEXT IP.

EDIT: DAMN you Yaremeyahu.. always faster.

That is messy.
You don't divide up single IP character movement by the fastest character's IPs.

If you get 1 IP and declare movement, you move during your turn.
If all characters had 1 IP, they'd all move on their initiative during that action phase, they wouldn't take their action and then move at the end of the phase.

Still wonky.

They move during their Turn; their Combat Turn. A Combat Turn is all the IPs of everyone in the combat. Read the rules.
I suggested that, if you require that level of accuracy, you divide everyone up. In fact, that is what's happening regardless (see above), but we mostly ignore the math.

yesferatu, you're *right*: things that are wonky are wrong. Stop assuming that the rules are supposed to be stupid, hehe.

Well I know...
It came up in a session last week and I had a really hard time explaining why a PC with 3 IPs couldn't outrun a corp guard with 1.

He could, if he used some of his actions to do a sprint (run test)

Hehe. Yeah, your player was confused. Console him with the fact that he gets to shoot him 4 more times, or punch him twice more, or do anything that a combination of 2 Free and 4 Simple extra actions can accomplish. Greedy player.

Well, like I said earlier, it's still not clear if multiple Sprint action in the same Turn keep adding. I mean, can you Sprint twice in one IP? The answer may well be yes; Usain Bolt's sprint speed is a SR4 Movement of 36 (=Troll Run), which is Human 25+11 (~6 hits on Strength + Athletics), which is two Sprint tests of DP 9 (pretty low, actually, but he's unaugmented). The problem is allowing up to 8 Sprint Tests for a 4-IP guy; you can easily hit 70 mph *without* any of the numerous DP and speed boosters we mentioned earlier.

Just yet it slip. SR is always insane with physics I mean you need to be super-troll to pull some of the lifts humans can do by RAW.

Although, what's the difference between 2 simple action sprints and a full run complex action?
Other than the stuff below I mean...

Humans, Elves, Orks 10/ 25
Dwarfs 8/ 20
Trolls 15/ 35

What Complex Action run?

How about -2 per addition Sprint test? That might serve to curb the potential and desire of using more than 2.

Wait, is there no such thing as a full run "I'm not doing anything thing else" action?

We covered that in the first post.AFAIK, there's nothing else.

Nope
Free Action to Run
Simple action to Sprint

2 meters per Net Hit on a Running + strength test.
Which.. wow my Troll is fast
4 running
10 strength
1 Neo-EPO
1 SynthCardium
1 Skill Recorder group Athletics

17 dice: 4-6 net hits on average.
so his sprinting rate is 43 to 47 Meters per 3 seconds.

That means he's sprinting at 56 Km/Hr
Though I guess if he got lucky he could get as fast as 69 Meters per 3 seconds or 82 Km/Hour

And that's with just 1 IP
if You let me do 8 running tests
even a conservative 5 hits mean an extra 80 meters, so 115 meters per turn.
138 Km/hr
That's pretty crazy

Exactly. 1 or even 2 Sprint tests is basically acceptable (although things get broken with optimized DPs and endurance checks), but it quickly gets silly beyond that. Allowing a single Sprint per Turn is probably the safest route; it allows an optimized character to go *very* fast, but not absurd. In that case, having extra IPs means that you're wasting relatively fewer of your precious actions on Sprinting.

Then, +50% for cyberskates, Raptor legs, Celerity, Satyr Legs (even with the bonus only on the *base* rate; doesn't multiply Sprint bonuses), or +100% for skimmers (technically, it may not be possible to Sprint with skimmers). Because those +50% are for the base, you're 'only' getting an extra 17 Movement for a Troll (+12 MPH).

I'd be inclined to allow multiple tests, but only have the BEST result apply. As such, sprinting would add directly to your movement rate- not your sprint-boosted movement rate.

However, there is the quandry of what happens if you have, say 4 IPs. If you sprint in IP 1, it boosts your movment rate for the whole turn, right? So you get +2m per success added to movement (an extra .5m per IP). But if you wait until IP 4 to sprint, you only get to use your improved movment rate in 1 IP, meaning you only get .5m per success. Since the effect of sprinting doesn't carry over to the next turn, sprinting is thus more or less effective depending on when in the turn you use it- which makes no sense.
This paradox leads me to think it really is intended that every time you roll a sprint test, you straight up get to move 2m per success. Simple math, and it avoids the weirdness where independent actions give different results depending on the order you perform them in.

It depends if you're tracking distance discretely over the course of the IP. If you're not, then Sprinting at any IP simply increases your Turn total.

If you *are*, then it's perfectly reasonable for the Sprint test to only help the fraction of the turn that you spent Sprinting. After all, earlier actions are 'worth more', because you can affect people before they get a chance to act again. If you save your Sprint until the 4th IP, then you may just be using a 'leftover' Simple Action. It does make sense, because you're literally Sprinting for less time.

The problem with making the Sprint test straight up +2m/hit (during that IP) *and* allowing multiple Sprints per Turn is shown above in the math, though.

Here's a thought... How about something like subtracting the total number of hits you've gotten from your Str+Athletics pool for any subsequent sprint tests? That way there's a sort of cap on how many hits they can add on sprint tests based on their aptitude, there's diminishing returns when you try to gun it even more, plus the chance if you're already pushed near your limit that you'll glitch and mess up!

Hehe, interesting. I suggested a -2/roll as a possible option, but yours does scale against 'your limit'.

I still think the best (=simplest) solution is probably fiat '1 Sprint per Turn', but it is sometimes nice to avoid that recourse.

This whole conversation really messes with a charge attack (melee option).

Let’s take a human (10/25 movement, 1IP)…
Combat has 1IP, so the human can charge and attack someone that is up to 25m away.
Combat has 2IP, human can charge someone that is 13m away (25m/2IP).
Combat has 3IP, human can charge someone that is 8m away (25m/3IP).
Combat has 4IP, human can charge someone that is 6m away (25m/4IP).

And heaven forbid a Technomancer or Rigger is involved…
Combat has 5IP, human can charge someone that is 5m away (25m/5IP).

If a melee specialist wants to charge attack someone outside those limits (s)he will waste precious IP running towards their target, however withholding does span IP so a 1IP human could charge someone that is 25m away even in a 5IP combat, but they won’t arrive at their target until IP5. Of course by then the target may not be there anymore, or may have already killed the attacker or been killed by someone else.

Gawd I love ShadowRun physics!

-D

This is why I alow up to max movement per IP. While In reality evry one moves the same faction per IP it is messy to lookat ect if every one moves 5m ever IP even if they have no actions as long as they said they where moveign this turn can work it is still messy. So abstart it and just let people move up the their max each turn.

Well, I don't see a problem with not being to charge attack someone on your first IP if you have 3 more. You *shouldn't* be able to move that far and then unleash your 4 IPs of actions. There's also nothing wrong with your target getting shot while you're rushing him, and there's not really a danger of the target 'not being there'; your movement goes to them, assuming you have enough movement. If they're running away from you, then it makes sense for a charge to possibly fail.

I agree that there's a coordination problem there, though. Not like one specific *melee* option is very important, but it's clearly a messy situation, requiring you to basically declare the charge on the first IP, and then actually 'use' it on a later IP. Workable, but not ideal.

Dumori, that's how it normally works. The only time you divide it all out is if the exact distances matter; usually, they don't.