Biowire and the Skillwire Expert System, Why Writers need to cross check. Options

[Yerameyahu]

That still doesn't make sense…

[sabs]

Okay, I'll bite
What doesn't make sense?

CF's have the same karma cost as knowledge skills from what I can tell.
So think of them as knowledge skills for buying with karma.

[Yerameyahu]

Ah, program options count exactly as an entire extra level? I didn't think that was true:

Complex Forms and Program Options: Options for complex forms must be purchased at a cost of 2 Karma per program option or program option rating (1 BP per option or point at character creation).

Now, that means that Rating 4 (11 Karma) + your 5 option-levels (10 Karma) = 21 Karma (not 46). However, this may also be relevant to us:

A complex form can be equipped with a number of options equal to half its rating. For threading of program options, see p. 148. Once an option is purchased, the technomancer can choose whether or not to use that option each time he uses the complex form.

Does this mean options, or option-levels? I assume the former; still, that means you can't have Personalized, DIMAP, *and* Pluscode without a rating 6 CF. You'll need to Thread them:

If the Threading Test is successful, all hits can be distributed among program ratings, program options, and program option ratings. Note that a complex form can only be equipped with a number of options equal to half its rating.

That last sentence implies that you can thread more Options onto a CF if its Rating is also increased by the Threading; however, a non-Threaded CF can't have more Options than half-Rating, even if the options are Threaded on.

[sabs]

Except that the BIOWIRE infor says somethign slightly different.
OOOh I miss read (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) the emulation section:

Emulation
Technomancers with the Biowire echo can use threading to
convert skillsofts (in storage accessible to the technomancer) into complex
forms that their neuromuscular system can process. To set up the
emulator, the technomancer makes a Threading (skillsoft rating) Test.
If the program contains other program ratings, raise the threshold by
the number of program options or rating points. If he succeeds, he has
converted the program into a complex form. He can now either sustain
the program as a normal threaded complex form of the same rating
or memorize the skillsoft as a complex form by paying an amount of
Karma equal to the rating (+1 for any program option or program
option rating).

Bolded for emphasis.

So,couple of points
It looks like I can put as many Program options into a skillsoft as I want, unlike other CF's
I was completely off about the cost it would only cost 9 Karma to get a Rating 4 skillsoft with all those options.

It's possible the rules for threading CF's apply, but there are definitely alternate rules for creating a Skillsoft CF compared to other CFs

[Yerameyahu]

So we were both wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) That's kinda stupid, though: Options should still cost 2/point, not 1, and I'm not sure the RAW even says that you can exceed the general half-Rating Options limit. If so, you shouldn't be able to. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Another issue that's been raised before is whether you can Thread CF'd Activesofts higher. By the general rules, yes. However, the fact that the Threading test to emulate doesn't do that implies that you can't (and we know that Activesofts are intended to be limited). Another place where the book is a little mismatched and unclear. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

you cant' get Skillsofts over rating 4 though.

and yes we were both wrong :grin:

and Emulation CF's are clearly different.
I don't know how I feel about it.
On one hand, It makes biowires so much cooler than skillwires.
On the other, biowires require you to be Initiate rating 5, have spent at least 1 echo on it
Find these skillsofts and then spend karma to thread them up and learn them.

Still, spending 9 karma for a rating 5 skill
that's pretty cool, being able to have 10 of those running at once.
That's amazing.

[Yerameyahu]

I agree that this isn't for free: you have to have the super-Biowires in the first place, and then you have to at least buy the pirated version of each 'soft you want to emulate (and save), as you said. Note, also, that you're not *adding* Options beyond the base 'soft being copied (which is max 2 for Rating 4).

I'm still not positive about some things:
1. Whether or not you can *later* Thread your CF'd 'softs higher than 4,
2. Whether they can have more than 2 Options (Rating/2, if you *can* Thread them above 4),
3. Whether they can be improved with Karma as normal CFs (expensive, of course),
4. Whether (houserule) it shouldn't be 2 Karma per Option-Level.

[sabs]

Can't i legally buy the skillsoft with all those options already built in?
Forget pirating it.
Just freaking buy it straight up from the Corps.

How do you handle emulating the skillsuites?

[Yerameyahu]

You can only buy the 'soft with Rating/2 Options already in, is my point. And buying it 'straight up' is ungodly expensive, and a waste: you're going to CF-ize it anyway, right?

[sabs]

You're a technomancer what are you using money on anyways?
It's not like you pay for your lifestyle (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I suppose that limit of rating/2 makes my equivalent hacker character look a bit better.

he gets 10 rating 5 skills for straight up nuyen, no karma needed.

[Dumori]

You're a technomancer what are you using money on anyways?
It's not like you pay for your lifestyle (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I suppose that limit of rating/2 makes my equivalent hacker character look a bit better.

he gets 10 rating 5 skills for straight up nuyen, no karma needed.

how are you going to load it on to your biowires with you dont emulate it any way?

[Sixgun_Sage]

Even better is when you buy the skillchip and then return it next week for a refund or store credit.

[sabs]

I did say /hacker/ character.

My hacker character with skillwires 5, and wired reflexes I

as opposed to a technomancer.

[Dumori]

I did say /hacker/ character.

Where?

[sabs]

You're a technomancer what are you using money on anyways?
It's not like you pay for your lifestyle (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I suppose that limit of rating/2 makes my equivalent hacker character look a bit better.

he gets 10 rating 5 skills for straight up nuyen, no karma needed.

Right here Dumori ^^^^^

[Yerameyahu]

No clue, because the limit is Rating/2 and Rating 4 for everyone. Let's focus, people. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[sabs]

It is?
I must reread Unwired

So it does.
Well, I'd skip DIMAP then (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) PlusCode is much more useful.

I see now, page 114 of Unwired.

[Yerameyahu]

It's the general Option rule. Yeah, DIMAP sucks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

Well it sucks for mundanes who can get expert skill wire systems.

it's potentially cool for a Technomancer who cant.

One of my favorite characters has:

skillwire 5
expert skillwire system
wired reflexes I
encephalon 2
PuSHeD
The neocortial nanites

electronics 4
cracking 4
Data Search 6

Knowledge skills:
Data Havens
Warez Sites

Black Market Pipeline: software
Contact: Pirate VPN

He's great fun, when ever the team needs a skill, he just slots it. It's a weakish build at the beginning, but after a few sessions/missions it really starts to get fun.

[Marcus]

I agree that this isn't for free: you have to have the super-Biowires in the first place, and then you have to at least buy the pirated version of each 'soft you want to emulate (and save), as you said. Note, also, that you're not *adding* Options beyond the base 'soft being copied (which is max 2 for Rating 4).

I'm still not positive about some things:
1. Whether or not you can *later* Thread your CF'd 'softs higher than 4,

Based upon the wording of Emulation I would say no.

2. Whether they can have more than 2 Options (Rating/2, if you *can* Thread them above 4),

The issue here is once the damn thing is a complex from can you thread it?
I don't think the intent was to let it be threaded, but given the wording I can't prove anything. It says memorize the skillsoft as a complex form. I don't see them wanting to let TM start running around with activesofts at 12s, but the real issue is the hard cap on skill soft can't be 4, (b/c the cyborg rules specifically talk about rating 5 skillsofts) so there needs to be clarification here what if any is max of skillsofts? Are they in fact threadable?

3. Whether they can be improved with Karma as normal CFs (expensive, of course),

No. Emulation does not discuss raising them. But i'd probably house rule that if it ever came up and just charge the difference in the two ratings. (Which is really just me saying Yes, but more round about.)

4. Whether (houserule) it shouldn't be 2 Karma per Option-Level.

Eh. I don't really have a problem with the cost in general, especially if the hard cap is in fact 4. Any Karma they aren't spending on raising resonance is adding breadth to the character imo.

[Yerameyahu]

Mhm. Well, cyborgs could be a special exception, but good point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You're right that it depends on the interplay of factors: *if* you can raise them (Karma or Threading), *then* the initial Karma cost being so cheap is an issue. And so on; it depends on how these various things work together, which is kind of what the OP asked, 'did the writers talk?'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Udoshi]

You're right that it depends on the interplay of factors: *if* you can raise them (Karma or Threading),

You can't raise it, actually. The unwired errata puts the foot down on buying up learned CFs with karma, or threading them up.
Sprite assistance is the only method left of boosting biowire cfs, and that's short term.
The fact that its a complex form, however, opens up some interesting options with lifestyles - if you have a resonance well or In-Tune, you can claim the +dice on resonancey-stuff with your emulated CF's while at home. This has some nice implicatons for technical skills.

That being said, on the ops question, I do think biowires and skillwire expert systems are compatable.
Why?
Because the FAQ says a technomancer can benefit from a Simsense Booster cyberware, gaining an extra pass with their bionode, which means that tech and resonance actually -can- play well together. This should satisfy any out-of-rules/background fluff/'it doesn't work like that!" issues.
Then there's the rules:
A biowire says this:" In game terms, it operates with a rating equal to the submersion grade of a the technomancer. in all other regards, it follows the basic rules for a skillwire system."
An Expert system says this: "This implant allows a character with a skillwire system to use edge to reroll a failed test when using skillsofts"
does an expert system fall under other "all other regards?" Yes.
Problem solved.

[Yerameyahu]

Interesting!

[DMiller]

The FAQ does say that you can't thread-up a skillsoft that has been converted to a CF. Sorry I don't know how to link the exact post, but it is in the official FAQ.

Sorry for the thread hijack.

-D

[Dumori]

The FAQ does say that you can't thread-up a skillsoft that has been converted to a CF. Sorry I don't know how to link the exact post, but it is in the official FAQ.

Sorry for the thread hijack.

-D

Official FAQ is BS it contradicts RAW and such in places. In some it can be read as self contradictory. It's hardly gospal its more like surgested house rules that soem people involved with CGL had.