Is a generalist build even viable? Options

[Teryon]

After taking in the advice(grateful btw) of the forums here, and playing around with the system a bit, Ive basically gotta ask: can a generalist survive this game? Can a character with points split between, say, face\street sam or an infiltrator\melee master or whatnot actually compete with the insane dice pools specialists can throw out(and as a consequence, the bar being set higher by the GM to compensate). Assume that yes, character will be teamed with more 'optimized' individuals.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Karmagen!!!

[Whipstitch]

After taking in the advice(grateful btw) of the forums here, and playing around with the system a bit, Ive basically gotta ask: can a generalist survive this game? Can a character with points split between, say, face\street sam or an infiltrator\melee master or whatnot actually compete with the insane dice pools specialists can throw out(and as a consequence, the bar being set higher by the GM to compensate). Assume that yes, character will be teamed with more 'optimized' individuals.

Depends by what you mean by "compete." Will they match up die for die? Of course not. But unless the specialists are doing absolutely everything they can to be top of the world in one niche, a character who splits dice between two niches can often come within 3 or 4 dice, which is more than enough to occasionally get lucky and pants the best of the best on occasion. Frankly though, if your GM's knee jerk reaction is to always raise the bar, then, well, you probably have either a GM who likes a bit of power gaming (which is fine) or a GM who doesn't really understand the concept of unintended consequences. Players learn from their environment-- spawning a world filled with Olympic or designated marksman level shooters may very well just teach the players that maxed out combat pools are necessary, which is frankly self-defeating behavior if your intention is to keep dice levels at a certain happy medium.

[Whipstitch]

Double post.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes.

[Mooncrow]

After taking in the advice(grateful btw) of the forums here, and playing around with the system a bit, Ive basically gotta ask: can a generalist survive this game? Can a character with points split between, say, face\street sam or an infiltrator\melee master or whatnot actually compete with the insane dice pools specialists can throw out(and as a consequence, the bar being set higher by the GM to compensate). Assume that yes, character will be teamed with more 'optimized' individuals.

The short answer is "it depends". Not all builds are equal, and some don't mesh very well. Melee, in particular, is a hefty point sink, and combining it with something else can be problematic. But, combining two complementary roles can end with both of them being very viable (charisma tradition mage/face, infiltrator/gun bunny, etc), or with some loss of breadth in each category, you can specialize in two categories pretty well (sniper/drone rigger, etc).

So, in short, it takes some juggling, but it can be done. I recently did a mystic adept face build that rolls 20 dice for social, 17 dice for automatics, 12 dice for spellcasting/summoning, and a few other skills for flavor. Now, in order to do that, he's a wet paper bag in combat and god help him if he has to sneak into a heavily warded building, but hey^^

edit: also, what Whipstitch said

[Neurosis]

In my campaign, yes.

I can't speak to other GMs and honestly it really varies.

But both my campaign and the characters I build emphasize being able to do a decent array of things competently (5-10 Dice) while being able to do a few things very well (10-15 Dice), as opposed to being able to do one thing SUPERLATIVELY (20+ Dice).

[Teryon]

In my campaign, yes.

I can't speak to other GMs and honestly it really varies.

But both my campaign and the characters I build emphasize being able to do a decent array of things competently (5-10 Dice) while being able to do a few things very well (10-15 Dice), as opposed to being able to do one thing SUPERLATIVELY (20+ Dice).

Thats generally how I prefer to build my characters in any system(not that Ive played a million of them, but I digress). I suppose I listened to the OTHER resident munchkin too much. I too have the munchkin mindset, but tempered with the understanding that

A. Its not quite as much fun
B. The GM is not incompetent and will go out of his way(more so than usual anyway) to bring the pain down upon me
C. Robert Heinlein was right: Specialization is for insects. A human should be able to do 100 things fairly well.

Interesting that you note 5-10 dice as competently. I presumed 15 dice was competence, like 8-10 dice was 'decent', and anything above 15 as 'able to do it well;.

[SleepIncarnate]

As everyone has already stated, it depends. If your team of runners is all generalists with a few areas they do well in, then yes a generalist can do well. If there's only one generalist amongst a lot of hyper specialists, it's going to be a lot less fun for the generalist player unless the GM finds ways to include tests for things the specialists forgot to take points in that the generalist did. I personally prefer karmagen (as has been pointed out) because it does build more well rounded "generalist" characters who still have a specialty without necessarily being the obscene levels of specialization people take in BP builds (20+ dice at creation). Even with like 500 BP builds, I'm often struggling to make those points work and have flavor in areas other than my freebie knowledge skills and still be good at my specialty (I often play characters who need multiple skill groups just for their core job, like hackers/TMs, infiltration, mages, etc).

[Teryon]

As everyone has already stated, it depends. If your team of runners is all generalists with a few areas they do well in, then yes a generalist can do well. If there's only one generalist amongst a lot of hyper specialists, it's going to be a lot less fun for the generalist player unless the GM finds ways to include tests for things the specialists forgot to take points in that the generalist did. I personally prefer karmagen (as has been pointed out) because it does build more well rounded "generalist" characters who still have a specialty without necessarily being the obscene levels of specialization people take in BP builds (20+ dice at creation). Even with like 500 BP builds, I'm often struggling to make those points work and have flavor in areas other than my freebie knowledge skills and still be good at my specialty (I often play characters who need multiple skill groups just for their core job, like hackers/TMs, infiltration, mages, etc).

*nod* Unfortunately for ease of simplicity the GM's decided to stick with vanilla 400 BP this time around. One guy stopped playing back when SR3 first came out, the GM and his friend havent played since SR2 I believe. Which leaves the two munchkins who've learned SR4 enough (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Honestly I feel your pain, Im trying to build a face\infiltrator(something of a not-so-nice private eye, easier to get info if you break into someone's home after all), and its quite difficult to get things working right even with going the adept route and a fist full of negative qualities. Id so much prefer a good 650pt karmagen setup. Ah, perhaps next game.

[Summerstorm]

I have in my group mostly normal character. (Like you say: Generalists.... well, in spirit)

I have:
Street Sam: Melee & Firepower + Support (Medicine, First Aid, Tactics etc.)
Bio-Fighter: Melee & Firepower, Electronics & Infiltration
Ki-Adept: Murdering Machine, but versatile, Infiltrator

AND i have a TOTALY insane Pixie-Mage, Summoning & Sorcery machine. Can not dodge, can not infiltrate (relies on concealment), can't to ANYTHING but negotiate (And there she is handicapped because... she is a PIXIE)

But in fights, or in normal utility she completely overshadows the team. She has as only character 4 IP, ALWAYS has a summoned F6 spirit with her (but managed till now to not piss them off). And has several others bound.

Since i play overall very realistically and she is potential one of the best mages (bar Dragons and spirits) in the world (A few points magic and a few initiations more and she is there) she walked over all opposition up to now pretty straight forward. There were a few tight spots... but nothing Edge 7 couldn't fix, but overall there isn't much which can't get engulfed by an air spirit, or stunned by a F8 Stunball with 8 successes.

And yeah, it takes a bit from the game. The mix of disgust and envy of the other players is visible sometimes, and even ingame they keep getting high-profile jobs because of HER. I do a lot to try and keep theminvolved and important. But that fails sometimes. And in my eyes they are the ones who did it all right. (I tried to talk the pixie-player down a bit, but i took the gm-position over and the pixie was approved and already ran in the campaign... can't just throw her out)

Oh and dice pools: 15 is VERY high, it means at least 6 Attribute, 6 Skill and good equipment/enhancements. 7 skill is WORLD BEST, 7 is the BEST HUMAN who has EVER LIVED (before ~2030).

[Whipstitch]

A lot of it REALLY depends on the levels of specialization we're talking about here and the kind of characters people are making. This stuff is all relative. For example, check out this old sheet:


Human Adept

Body: 3
Agility: 5
Reaction: 3
Strength: 3
Charisma: 5
Intuition: 3
Logic: 3
Willpower: 3

Edge: 2
Magic: 5
Essence: 6

Qualities:
Adept
Lost Loved One
SINner
Day Job (Small)
Fame (Local)
Mild Addiction: Novacoke
Mild Addiction: Deepweed

Contacts:
Coffin Club Owner: Loyalty 3, Connection 2
Fixer: Loyalty 2, Connection 3
Private Investigator: Loyalty 1, Connection 2

Throwing Weapons: 5
Gymnastics: 5
Blades: 4
Perception: 4
Stealth Group: 4
Influence Group: 4

Powers:
Missile Mastery
Power Throw: 3
Quick Draw
Nimble Fingers
Kinesics: 3
Enthralling Performance
Commanding Voice
Improved Ability (Gymnastics): 1

Free Knowledge Points

50k Nuyen worth of Lifestyle/Gear

This character performed at night clubs (usually of the coffin variety) as a day job and ran the shadows in part to follow up on a missing sibling. Now, I've ran groups where this character would definitely be considered weak sauce-- she's spending bp on attributes she doesn't really use, for one thing. Social Skills in particular can be boosted to the point that the Pornomancer sheet is a combination running joke/grim warning here on Dumpshock. 12 dice in your specialty isn't scaring a hardened min-maxer. But compared to say, the corebook example sheets? She kicks the crap out of the example Face and as long as she doesn't have to do any major athletic feats she should be able to sneak around pretty OK too. Oh, and she deals roughly heavy pistol grade damage while throwing a ballpoint, so she's never really unarmed. I've kinda gotten to the point as a GM where I consider it to be a table problem if this sort of sheet can't really contribute.

[Ascalaphus]

This/That builds are doable, although it's not always easy. You can try to pick "nearby" roles that use mostly the same stats(Face/Charisma Tradition), or synergy roles that enhance each other's potential (Sam/Infiltrator).

Getting the ultimate dice pool is often insanely expensive, by only going to about 12 instead of 16 you can save a lot of points. Diminishing returns hurt overspecialization. So a dual-specialized character can be more effective than an extreme single specialist.

But a true generalist? Some who does a bit of everything? I don't think anyone should want to; you hire shadowrunners because they're better at something.

[Teryon]

Ok, perhaps I should be more specific in phrasing, not quite 'generalist' but more 'dual build'. Though looking at your sheet there Whip, its pretty similar to what Ive got going, though I went for more stealth gear and just picked up some decent gun skills (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Perhaps I should try throwing weapons. The thought of injuring someone with a spork is...well, amusing

[Yerameyahu]

20 dice is simply not necessary. The GM fits the run to the characters. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You really *should* have at least two roles, or you're a boring one-trick pony.

[Neurosis]

Thats generally how I prefer to build my characters in any system(not that Ive played a million of them, but I digress). I suppose I listened to the OTHER resident munchkin too much. I too have the munchkin mindset, but tempered with the understanding that

A. Its not quite as much fun
B. The GM is not incompetent and will go out of his way(more so than usual anyway) to bring the pain down upon me
C. Robert Heinlein was right: Specialization is for insects. A human should be able to do 100 things fairly well.

Interesting that you note 5-10 dice as competently. I presumed 15 dice was competence, like 8-10 dice was 'decent', and anything above 15 as 'able to do it well;.

Well, I think it really comes down to terms.

By "competent" I meant "able to avoid embarassing yourself at a basic task under ordinary circumstances" which you might define as 'decent'. Six or seven dice in a pool is definitely on the low end of competent. Like I said, my players REALLY value roleplaying and REALLY undervalue and seem to kind of subconsciously frown-upon character optimization. YMMV. Heck, YMWV (Your Milage Will Vary).

[Whipstitch]

I think the best advice here would be to collaborate with your fellow players and ask your GM-- the game isn't class based, so it's not really enough to just say "Well, we got a cleric, a mage and a rogue so I guess Bob should play a pack mule, erm, I mean, a fighter." Check out what their sheets can do. If they're throwing gobs more dice then you may want to nick a few tricks off them here or there so you have enough dice to fit into the sort of game people are going for. For example, the sheet I listed above could easily have higher dice pools in Stealth and Social skills simply by ditching some of the thrown weapon powers and settling for a pistol and shunting Power Points into Improved Ability and/or burning a point of essence on some bioware. In other groups it might not really matter and it'll hit the sweet spot between raw dice and utility even without tweaking. It's tough to say without context. Being able to talk your way in and sneak your way out is a bit expensive because they use different primary attributes (Charisma and Agility respectively), but as Ascalphus pointed out some roles have enough synergy together that you can get away with having to stretch your points a bit thin here and there.

[Glyph]

It is quite possible to have two, or sometimes even three, things that you do pretty well.

The problem with a lot of generalist builds is that, quite frankly, they don't take advantage of the system's strengths - magic and technology. They create characters with average Attributes all over, and a bunch of skills in the 2-4 range. Obviously, such characters will not be all that great, purely looking at dice pools. But when you use 'ware or magic to boost up your Attributes and dice pools, you can not only have a higher dice pool in one or two specialties, but often have better dice pools at everything else, too.

For an example, here is a generic hitman build:

[ Spoiler ]

BREAKDOWN (400 Points)
Core Attributes: 200
Special Attributes: 10
Race (Human): 0
Active Skills: 134
Qualities: -10
Contacts: 6
Resources: 60

=Attributes=
Body: 4(5)
Agility: 4(9)
Reaction: 4(9)
Strength: 2(3)
Charisma: 2
Intuition: 5
Logic: 2(3)
Willpower: 5
Edge: 3

Essence: 0.30
Initiative: 14
Initiative Passes: 3
Physical Damage Track: 11
Stun Track: 11

Current Karma: 0
Total Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Noteriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0

=Qualities=
Born Rich
Compulsive (5) - Neat/clean freak
Nano-Intolerance
Records on File
Restricted Gear (x 3)
Vindictive
Weak Immune System

=Active Skills=
Dodge/Ranged: 4(6)/+2
Etiquette: 1
Intimidation: 1
Long Arms/Sniping Rifles: 4/+2
Monofilament Whip: 4(5)
Perception/Visual: 4/+2
Pistols/Semi-Automatic: 6(7)/+2
Stealth Skill Group: 3

=Knowledge Skills=
Languages>
English: N
Japanese: 4

Other>
Guerrilla Combat Tactics: 5
Paranormal Critters: 2
Psychology: 4
Safe Houses: 3
Seattle Black Market: 3

=Cyberware=
Attention Coprocessor: 3
Cyberears I with:
>Damper
>Increased Sensitivity
>Select Sound Filter: 2
Cybereyes II with:
>Flare Compensation
>Low-Light Vision
>Protective Covers (1-way reflective)
>Smartlink
>Vision Magnification
Fingertip Compartment with:
>Monofilament Whip
Internal Air Tank
Move-by-Wire: 2
Radar Sensor: 4
Skillwire Expert System

=Bioware=
Cerebral Booster: 1
Muscle Toner: 4
Reflex Recorders
>Monofilament Whip
>Pistols
Suprathyroid Gland

=Transgenics=
Reakt

=Contacts=
Fixer (Connection: 4/Loyalty: 2)

=Lifestyle=
Low (1 Month prepaid at 2,200/Month)
Starting Money: 3d6 x 50 Nuyen

=Equipment=
ID/Credsticks:
Fake ID (Rating: 4); Fake Gun Registration, Pistol (Rating: 4); Fake Concealed Carry Permit (Rating: 4); Fake Bioware Registration (Rating: 4); Fake Cyberware Registration (Rating: 4) x 2; 4 Certified Credsticks.

DocWagon Contract:
Basic (1 Year).

Weapons:
>Walther Secura Kompakt (smartlinked version) with skinlink, concealable holster, silencer, 90 normal rounds and 90 gel rounds of ammo, 6 spare clips.
>Walther MA 2100 Sniper Rifle with skinlink, silencer, trombone carrying case (100 Nuyen), 100 regular rounds of ammo, 3 spare clips.

Armor/Clothing:
Armor Jacket, FFBA half suit, PPP (forearm guards and shin guards - discrete protection version), Chameleon Suit with Thermal Dampening: 6; 2,250 Nuyen worth of assorted clothing.

Commlink/Software/Simsense:
Sony Emperor Commlink with Renraku Ichi OS, skinlink, sim module, trodes, and subvocal mic; Utilities (Browse: 2, Command: 2, Edit: 2, and Encrypt: 2); Linguisofts (Korean: 4 and Spanish: 4); Mapsoft (Seattle metroplex, Rating: 6), Datasoft (Sun Tzu's 'The Art of War' annotated version with commentaries, Rating: 6), Virtual Surround Music, Electronic Paper.

Other:
Military-surplus duffel bag (100 Nuyen cost), Survival Kit, Medkit (Rating: 6) with 5 refills, Tag Eraser, Metal Restraints, Operations Cleanup Toolkit.

Now, this guy is good in a fight - high dice pools to attack (at close, medium, and long range combat) and dodge, decent damage soaking, very good initiative, and multiple initiative passes. But he is also really good at sneaking, with dice pools in the 8-12 range for the stealth skill group, and he has very good perception, too. And after the game starts, he only needs some pirated skillsofts to be even more versatile.

[Cain]

I'm going to be the voice of dissent and say "No". Trying to be decent at everything leaves you good for nothing.

Now, a dual build can be viable-- focusing on two things to be good at without being crippled in other areas. Sometimes they can even be complimentary: there's lots of archetypes that could benefit from a high Charisma, so a face/mage, face/otaku, or even a face/sammie are viable builds. Decker/Rigger combinations can be viable as well.

The best bet is to see what your team needs, and building around that. You'll guarantee yourself lots more spotlight time that way, filling the roles that they lack.

[Triggvi]

There are more as to sneak than stealth. A good face can bluff or disguise there way past guards or both. Adepts are great at disguise. face sculpt+voice control + melonin control and the social skills to back it up.

[Neurosis]

It is quite possible to have two, or sometimes even three, things that you do pretty well.

The problem with a lot of generalist builds is that, quite frankly, they don't take advantage of the system's strengths - magic and technology. They create characters with average Attributes all over, and a bunch of skills in the 2-4 range. Obviously, such characters will not be all that great, purely looking at dice pools. But when you use 'ware or magic to boost up your Attributes and dice pools, you can not only have a higher dice pool in one or two specialties, but often have better dice pools at everything else, too.

For an example, here is a generic hitman build:

[ Spoiler ]

BREAKDOWN (400 Points)
Core Attributes: 200
Special Attributes: 10
Race (Human): 0
Active Skills: 134
Qualities: -10
Contacts: 6
Resources: 60

=Attributes=
Body: 4(5)
Agility: 4(9)
Reaction: 4(9)
Strength: 2(3)
Charisma: 2
Intuition: 5
Logic: 2(3)
Willpower: 5
Edge: 3

Essence: 0.30
Initiative: 14
Initiative Passes: 3
Physical Damage Track: 11
Stun Track: 11

Current Karma: 0
Total Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Noteriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0

=Qualities=
Born Rich
Compulsive (5) - Neat/clean freak
Nano-Intolerance
Records on File
Restricted Gear (x 3)
Vindictive
Weak Immune System

=Active Skills=
Dodge/Ranged: 4(6)/+2
Etiquette: 1
Intimidation: 1
Long Arms/Sniping Rifles: 4/+2
Monofilament Whip: 4(5)
Perception/Visual: 4/+2
Pistols/Semi-Automatic: 6(7)/+2
Stealth Skill Group: 3

=Knowledge Skills=
Languages>
English: N
Japanese: 4

Other>
Guerrilla Combat Tactics: 5
Paranormal Critters: 2
Psychology: 4
Safe Houses: 3
Seattle Black Market: 3

=Cyberware=
Attention Coprocessor: 3
Cyberears I with:
>Damper
>Increased Sensitivity
>Select Sound Filter: 2
Cybereyes II with:
>Flare Compensation
>Low-Light Vision
>Protective Covers (1-way reflective)
>Smartlink
>Vision Magnification
Fingertip Compartment with:
>Monofilament Whip
Internal Air Tank
Move-by-Wire: 2
Radar Sensor: 4
Skillwire Expert System

=Bioware=
Cerebral Booster: 1
Muscle Toner: 4
Reflex Recorders
>Monofilament Whip
>Pistols
Suprathyroid Gland

=Transgenics=
Reakt

=Contacts=
Fixer (Connection: 4/Loyalty: 2)

=Lifestyle=
Low (1 Month prepaid at 2,200/Month)
Starting Money: 3d6 x 50 Nuyen

=Equipment=
ID/Credsticks:
Fake ID (Rating: 4); Fake Gun Registration, Pistol (Rating: 4); Fake Concealed Carry Permit (Rating: 4); Fake Bioware Registration (Rating: 4); Fake Cyberware Registration (Rating: 4) x 2; 4 Certified Credsticks.

DocWagon Contract:
Basic (1 Year).

Weapons:
>Walther Secura Kompakt (smartlinked version) with skinlink, concealable holster, silencer, 90 normal rounds and 90 gel rounds of ammo, 6 spare clips.
>Walther MA 2100 Sniper Rifle with skinlink, silencer, trombone carrying case (100 Nuyen), 100 regular rounds of ammo, 3 spare clips.

Armor/Clothing:
Armor Jacket, FFBA half suit, PPP (forearm guards and shin guards - discrete protection version), Chameleon Suit with Thermal Dampening: 6; 2,250 Nuyen worth of assorted clothing.

Commlink/Software/Simsense:
Sony Emperor Commlink with Renraku Ichi OS, skinlink, sim module, trodes, and subvocal mic; Utilities (Browse: 2, Command: 2, Edit: 2, and Encrypt: 2); Linguisofts (Korean: 4 and Spanish: 4); Mapsoft (Seattle metroplex, Rating: 6), Datasoft (Sun Tzu's 'The Art of War' annotated version with commentaries, Rating: 6), Virtual Surround Music, Electronic Paper.

Other:
Military-surplus duffel bag (100 Nuyen cost), Survival Kit, Medkit (Rating: 6) with 5 refills, Tag Eraser, Metal Restraints, Operations Cleanup Toolkit.

Now, this guy is good in a fight - high dice pools to attack (at close, medium, and long range combat) and dodge, decent damage soaking, very good initiative, and multiple initiative passes. But he is also really good at sneaking, with dice pools in the 8-12 range for the stealth skill group, and he has very good perception, too. And after the game starts, he only needs some pirated skillsofts to be even more versatile.

I am not sure if this is a derail or not but I believe that a related topic is that there is a huge difference between groups that believe that a 6 in an attribute is really good and that a 9 in an attribute is really good.

To be optimized, everyone needs high attributes...ESPECIALLY generalists.

[toturi]

I think it is alright to build a generalist who is alright at those skills which are primarily not used in opposed tests. Or the intended use by the character is not in opposed tests.

For example, some players simply want to make sure that their characters do not miss the obvious clues, so they take a little Perception to make that Threshold 1 or 2. Other players want their characters to be able to spot that extremely well-hidden sniper despite their characters getting a lot of negative dice.

You need to decide what level of competence you want your generalist to be. But unless your game has a very small number of players (1 or 2), you might be better served by specialising in one or 2 areas.

[Triggvi]

I think it is alright to build a generalist who is alright at those skills which are primarily not used in opposed tests. Or the intended use by the character is not in opposed tests.

For example, some players simply want to make sure that their characters do not miss the obvious clues, so they take a little Perception to make that Threshold 1 or 2. Other players want their characters to be able to spot that extremely well-hidden sniper despite their characters getting a lot of negative dice.

You need to decide what level of competence you want your generalist to be. But unless your game has a very small number of players (1 or 2), you might be better served by specialising in one or 2 areas.

I tend to create more generalist characters covering 2 or 3 areas. How you play the character more often than not determines his or her success. Having a character go toe to toe with specialized sam or hacker or anything other specialist is not always a good idea, but out smarting him and defeating him with skills he doesn't have ,because he is so limited, is more fun.

[toturi]

I tend to create more generalist characters covering 2 or 3 areas. How you play the character more often than not determines his or her success. Having a character go toe to toe with specialized sam or hacker or anything other specialist is not always a good idea, but out smarting him and defeating him with skills he doesn't have ,because he is so limited, is more fun.

That would depend. Having a character go toe to toe against another in an area where he is at a disadvantage is not a good idea, but the other guy will be trying to force someone weaker to face him in the area where he is stronger. So the specialist will want to force you to face him in his speciality while the generalist will be trying to avoid that speciality. How do you make it such that you will face the other in a contest of your choosing is the key. Sometimes the initiative isn't on your side or you are simply not that much smarter than him and you have to face the specialist in his speciality.

[Teryon]

Depends on what you're going for. If your specialty is more social, you'd not want to be in a situation where you face the combat oriented at ALL. Failing that of course there's being tricky and hoping for the best.