Is a generalist build even viable? Options

[Whipstitch]

It's not hard at all if you have either a high Agility or are counting Athletics pools, which have tons of situational modifiers and the almost absurdly good Synthacardium. Likewise social skill tests are easily bloated, but that's kind of a red herring since those are always opposed tests and so dicepool sizes are pretty relative. That's part of why that social dice software is so often disparaged here on dumpshock-- the minimal cost smacks more of power creep than alternate character advancement. If everyone has an extra handful of dice than really all that happens is you'll see less glitches.

[KarmaInferno]

You mind giving us a rundown of those numbers? Especially how you get your attributes up like that?

Relevant natural attributes maxed out or nearly maxed out.

Mystic Adept with multiple Improved Ability adept powers and Kinesics.

A couple of foci-sustained attribute-boosting spells.

Maxed out commlink/drone ratings - when rigging or hacking, the equipment ratings replace many of your attribute ratings for skill tests.

Specifically:

Negotiate: base 3, Improved Ability 2, Charisma 5, Kinesics 2, Chatty quality (+2), Empathy software 6, specialization in Bargaining (+2) = 22 dice, capped at 20. Street Cred is currently 5 but has no effect due to cap.

Gunnery: base 2, Improved Ability 1, Command 6, Optimization (Command, +1), Specialization (Ballistics, +2), TacNet 3, Smartlink (+2) = 17 dice.

Note that this particular character cannot use any sort of cyberware or bioware.

Most of that was gained at character creation. She's also pretty good at hacking and investigative skills, and her other social skills all hover around 14-16 dice.

[edit] corrected numbers


-k

[Whipstitch]

Well, breaking the Improved Ability rules sure explains a lot.

[KarmaInferno]

Well, breaking the Improved Ability rules sure explains a lot.

Ah, yeah, right, sorry. Was misremembering my sheet - I've boosted the Negotiate and Gunnery skills in game play since the numbers above, which is why my mental math was off. Corrected.

That only drops the dice pools by a few points, though.



-k

[Whipstitch]

Except it's not so rosy as all that. For one thing, you had to go over 1 or 2 skill ranks so you could round up to Improved Ability 2. Empathy Software shouldn't be super common by fluff, but that depends somewhat on how you interpret the emotitoy's capabilities. In any case it's a pretty safe to say that a Fixer or Johnson will have made the investment and can match up with you pretty well on that end. That's effectively like an 8 point swing against what you listed earlier. Which, hey, is fine. I'm not of the opinion that you gotta be a pornomancer to be a half decent Face. But in any case, having 14-16 dice after Empathy software in the other Social Skills on an Adept with 5 Charisma and Kinesics is pretty meh. You'll get past situations in which your opposition doesn't have Empathy Software very easily, but that says more about the power of Empathy software than it does about the cost effectiveness of avoiding a default.

As far as the Gunnery thing goes, well, you paid 10 bps to beat Pilot+Targeting by 6 dice. That's a fairly tough call between cost effectiveness vs. Murphy's Law. It's not a bad choice, but I usually go all-in with that area or make do with a pirated Pilot 6 myself. With the way drones stomp all over recoil I usually cheerfully wide full auto my way past li'l concerns like accuracy anyway.

[KarmaInferno]

Well, as I pointed out, the character in question cannot use implants at all.

Someone who can is likely to be able to boost their dice further.



-k

[Neurosis]

Before I posted on Dumpshock, I hadn't noticed that Emotitoys exist.

After posting on Dumpshock, I'm going to continue pretending that Emotitoys don't exist. : )

[Whipstitch]

Well, as I pointed out, the character in question cannot use implants at all.

Someone who can is likely to be able to boost their dice further.



-k

That's kind of my point though. There's so many high grade dice pool modifiers in this game that 2 dice for 4 build points is a bit mediocre for something you can get for karma a run later. Off the top of my head you can build an ork Mystic Adept that fraggin' defaults to 9 dice with no situational modifiers on any social test and hits 11 dice after 10 karma. That's what inspired the KarmaGen comment earlier-- my stance is less about case-by-case effectiveness and more about mid-term opportunity costs. I would say that it's less relevant for Awakened and Technomancers in general though. They have enough juicy options for their karma that simply backfilling dump stats and buying up low rank skills and specializations often ends up taking a backseat to hitting higher grades and buying spells, foci and complex forms. On the other hand, Samurai can really thrive by becoming renaissance men in play.

This post has been edited by Whipstitch: Oct 1 2010, 05:32 PM

[KarmaInferno]

Before I posted on Dumpshock, I hadn't noticed that Emotitoys exist.

After posting on Dumpshock, I'm going to continue pretending that Emotitoys don't exist. : )

Hey, I refuse to use Emotitoys!

...I use Empathy software. All the cheese, none of the social drawbacks.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)



-k

[StealthSigma]

Keep in mind that a professional person who does a task for a living is likely to have 3-4 in the skill and 4 in the linked attribute. Once you add in a specialization you are looking at 9-10 dice for someone who does that particular thing for a living. If you can build a character who can perform at that level in 4-5 areas, you are a true generalist.

How do you define area? Without specialization, my character has a 10+ in every combat dice pool he has just 1 rank in. Would that quantify as three areas? Close combat, firearms, heavy weapons?

[Whipstitch]

I would say no. Those are all basically Agility+Skill To Hurt People. The game isn't terribly granular so there's obviously a lot of overlap between any given two ranged weapon skills. Close Combat is a bit of a special case given that one of its useful functions-- as a melee defense pool-- actually relies on Reaction as opposed to Agility. So unless you also have Dodge or Gymnastics, you might be able to dish it out some with 10 or so dice but that's not enough to take your own medicine on its own. The silver lining here, I guess, is that you must be talking about a character with tweaked Agility so at least you can sneak around some.

[Yerameyahu]

There are no social drawbacks to Emotitoys unless your vindictive GM invents them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Agreed: AGI 7+ on anyone basically lets them able to handle combat, infiltration, etc. It's one of the easier 'multirole' areas, and appropriately common.

[StealthSigma]

I would say no. Those are all basically Agility+Skill To Hurt People. The game isn't terribly granular so there's obviously a lot of overlap between any given two ranged weapon skills. Close Combat is a bit of a special case given that one of its useful functions-- as a melee defense pool-- actually relies on Reaction as opposed to Agility. So unless you also have Dodge or Gymnastics, you might be able to dish it out some with 10 or so dice but that's not enough to take your own medicine on its own. The silver lining here, I guess, is that you must be talking about a character with tweaked Agility so at least you can sneak around some.

The reason I ask.... 4-5 is about the number of role areas that are present in Shadowrun. I would be expecting someone that can throw 10+ dice on every check. That is excessive. 4-5 areas of general function would imply that there's closer to 10-12 areas of expertise total, and I think that using average skill level for a skill groups as a base is a pretty good idea.

So for instance, if I have 9 agility, with 2 blade, 2 unarmed, and 0 club. My close combat proficiency would be (11+11+(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) /3 or 10. My athletics skill group would be (8+8+8+11)/4 or 8.75.

But then that doesn't help you assess skills that don't fall in skill groups.

[Teryon]

There are no social drawbacks to Emotitoys unless your vindictive GM invents them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Agreed: AGI 7+ on anyone basically lets them able to handle combat, infiltration, etc. It's one of the easier 'multirole' areas, and appropriately common.

I think most GM's who've heard of the things are vindictive towards them. Mine is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Neurosis]

Fortunately, it is very easy to house-rule out. Just mentally delete the last sentence of the page on p. 60 of Arsenal.

Empathy Software/EmoToys helping out with Judge Intentions tests is fine. Having them give six dice on all social tests for a lousy 600 Nuyen and availability -- is pure, rancid, horrible cheese.

I have no idea why it made it into the rules to begin with.

[Teryon]

Fortunately, it is very easy to house-rule out. Just mentally delete the last sentence of the page on p. 60 of Arsenal.

Empathy Software/EmoToys helping out with Judge Intentions tests is fine. Having them give six dice on all social tests for a lousy 600 Nuyen and availability -- is pure, rancid, horrible cheese.

I have no idea why it made it into the rules to begin with.

Because of similar software being developed in RL combined with helping the troll gun-nut not bash his face in when talking to someone? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I admit Im cheating a bit with empathy software but at least I have to pay for it, have to have a commlink that supports it, and deal with the 'Oh we`ll just take that' situations where Id like to have a social bonus. Plus, considering Im playing an ork, I can use the bonus until the karma starts flowing.

[Kruger]

I have no idea why it made it into the rules to begin with.

Have you read the rest of 4th Edition? lol

[Triggvi]

the empathy software uses biological sensor data to read some one. Adept could negate that with kinesic power and or cool resolve. I agree is is a poorly written program. A comlink would now have the sensors to use the program, a drone would.

[Yerameyahu]

Agreed, Neurosis: the fundamental problem with Emotitoys is how huge their bonus is, and how small the price is. They should be limited to Rating 3, for starters, if the bonus is a straight-up DP boost. Most other Sensor Software is limited, and Empathy should match that.

There should also be rules, as Triggvi mentions, for reducing their effectiveness: wearing a mask, special powers/Qualities, etc.

There's no reason you can't connect that commlink to the necessary sensors, though. The Emotitoy simply has them built-in (and again, should cost more because of it).

[Teryon]

Agreed, Neurosis: the fundamental problem with Emotitoys is how huge their bonus is, and how small the price is. They should be limited to Rating 3, for starters, if the bonus is a straight-up DP boost. Most other Sensor Software is limited, and Empathy should match that.

There should also be rules, as Triggvi mentions, for reducing their effectiveness: wearing a mask, special powers/Qualities, etc.

There's no reason you can't connect that commlink to the necessary sensors, though. The Emotitoy simply has them built-in (and again, should cost more because of it).

*nod* I always rather figured the mounting dice to the opposing pool would negate the bonus in those kind of situations. As for linking the commlink to sensors, thats what I thought you had to do anyway. Dosent make sense any other way, but then again RAI vs RAW here. Id think simply knowing the emotitoy was *around* would negate some of its effectiveness as the Johnson or whomever would be going out of there way to fake it out, mess with it via drugs\augments\powers. Its harder to tell if someone's got contact lenses with the right enhancements skinlinked to a commlink running Empware rating 6.

[Yerameyahu]

It *is* what you have to do, unless you use the Emotitoy, which has its own sensors and node.

[Whipstitch]

the empathy software uses biological sensor data to read some one. Adept could negate that with kinesic power and or cool resolve. I agree is is a poorly written program. A comlink would now have the sensors to use the program, a drone would.

There's a limit to how much it really offsets things though. Fluff wise, the description of Kinesics says you have complete control over subconscious nonverbal communication. Mechanically, however, it's not really so complete, apparently, since, for one thing, there's different ranks of Kinesics. It also says straight up in the rules that it offers a die per level vs. tests to determine someone's emotional state even vs. technological and magical means. So, mechanically speaking, Kinesics offsets rather than negates. It kinda sucks, but there it is. I guess the best reaching-for-straws explanation is that there's a difference between being able to control some of your subconscious tics and being able to control them in an artful, natural manner that puts people at ease. Being able to smile convincingly isn't a particularly useful trick if you don't know when to deploy it. In that sense I guess Kinesics is as much about reading your mark as it is controlling yourself.

[Teryon]

Id think the ranks were more about the level of skill with the control. After all, technically I have complete control over the muscles in my body, but Im sure as hell not going to be fencing or playing NBA basketball or other such things without alot of training.

[Triggvi]

There's a limit to how much it really offsets things though. Fluff wise, the description of Kinesics says you have complete control over subconscious nonverbal communication. Mechanically, however, it's not really so complete, apparently, since, for one thing, there's different ranks of Kinesics. It also says straight up in the rules that it offers a die per level vs. tests to determine someone's emotional state. So, mechanically speaking, Kinesics offsets rather than negates. It kinda sucks, but there it is. I guess the best reaching-for-straws explanation is that there's a difference between being able to control some of your subconscious tics and being able to control them in an artful, natural manner that puts people at ease. Being able to smile convincingly isn't a particularly useful trick if you don't know when to deploy it. In that sense I guess Kinesics is as much about reading your mark as it is controlling yourself.

mechanically you are right. cool resolve would add bonus dice against the program because it is an opposed test.

[Triggvi]

Common sense wise.

You would need a full sensor suite to use an empathy program. Pheromone sniffers (biochemical changes), thermal imagining, multiple cameras getting 3d facial and body position data, micro phones (vocal analysis). In reality you would have to have a secondary sensor suite somewhere linked to the comlink.