Programs past 12 Options

[Yerameyahu]

You should read back through this (and other) threads, as part of your research. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You're not quite right on how System and Response limit things, for one.

The Errata only says that self-coded programs don't degrade from 'planned obsolescence'. They should certainly still degrade from actual obsolescence.

[Wraith235]

actually I am correct on system and response

pg. 222 SR4A
System measures the power of the device’s operating system (OS)
sofware. Tis includes its stability, multitasking properties, ability to
control hardware, resources, and the general quality of its code. If the
System sofware ever crashes, the entire device crashes. System limits
the rating of programs running on the device, and sets the limit on most
devices for the number of programs that can be run without a Response
drop. The System program is limited by the base Response rating of the
device it is on: if the base Response rating of the device is lower than the
System rating, then the System rating is set to equal the Response rating.
System also sets the size of the Matrix Condition Monitor of persona
programs running on the device (Cybercombat, p. 236).

pg. 232 SR4A
In order to use a program, it must be running. A running program
is executed by the device on which your persona is running and
belongs to your persona; only you may use the program. The System
rating of the device limits the rating of the program. A program operates
at its own rating or the System of the device, whichever is lower.

if theres a page referance that shows how Response--> system ---> Programs is not the case please point it out .... and no I am not talking Techno's as they by default break 85% of the hacking rules ... Im talking Code and programs

I assume your talking about the reality filter and I'll admit Im wrong there after the quotes as the word "Base" is used

and yes I scoured through the thread before yo replied and it was a few replies later that I saw that

[Yerameyahu]

Yup. "Base" is a pretty important distinction. In addition, and as mentioned dozens of times in this thread: Optimization.

I'm not trying to rag on you, but it's important to read back to avoid the repetition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wraith235]

I admit I have not Read that one in depth ...... but I will ....

I was talking base rules w/o optimization since thats what things looked like in the begining

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, it's a pretty major change, and it throws the System limit out the window. :/

[Wraith235]

ok .... ya .... thats relativly sick

tho the wording is signifigantly different between the 2 editions of the core book ... unwired was linked to SR4 ... not SR4A

but ya .... it definatly changes the program/comlink hacker

but at the same time I see why it was done .... it puts them on par with the techno allbeit for MUCH less effort and cost (1275 for a Erg / opt 6 program pirated in roughly 10-12 hrs) with a week on the patch

tho a techno w/ a reso 12 (6 submersion grades) can still outclass them through threading (CF12 max thread to a 24)

and IMHO the clasic cyber hacker needed something .... with technos in 4th there was no reason to run any hacker other than a techno due to the pure superiority they held for a long time

[sabs]

24? with a 20 max die pool, what the hell.
Why do technos need that much /stuff/

noone gets to have a 'skill' over 7.. except mages with Magic.. but a 24?
That's ridiculous.

[SleepIncarnate]

Mages are the same way though sabs, at Magic 12 they can overcast to force 24 (without the sustaining penalty). And think about trolls with good armor on their damage soak rolls, or full blown elf social adepts, or a human or pixie with a high edge, or any other example. There's lots of ways to get ridiculously high dice pools, and most people don't need to soak physical damage for them.

[Karoline]

Indeed, getting a 24 CF (Ignoring the 285 karma for resonance, 123 karma for submersion, and 57 karma per CF) would require getting 12 hits on a software + resonance test. Even assuming 12 resonance, 7 software, and a paragon, you only have 21 dice to get 12 hits, and then you have to resist 12P fading with a (stat) + resonance test which is going to max out around 19. Even if you burn edge on both tests you're not very likely to get enough hits.

People really need to stop going "Holy crap, look at these things that could happen" with no consideration for it being possible but not probable. As I've said from the beginning, yes, a starting TM can get a 12 program in theory but it is exceptionally difficult and requires sacrifices. Comparing it to just coding up a rating 12 program is, frankly, stupid.

And once again, people have ignored the 6 points worth of bonuses that Hackers can easily get to all their matrix stuff, which evens out the bonus that TMs can get through threading, except the hacker doesn't have to worry about rolling good for the bonus, or taking damage for the bonus.

People who complain about TMs have obviously never played both a TM and a hacker, or they've made their hacker wrong.

[Wraith235]

hey I said Max ... as in absolute max ....

and yes I have played a techno

ans while theoretical and improbable.... Dice cap would be 24 + 6(7 with aptitude) x2 .... not 20 .... keep in mind Dicepool cap says skill + attribute (or in this case skill + program)x2 or 20 whichever is higher

[Yerameyahu]

I haven't actually heard 'skill + program' in the context of the dice cap.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I use the "Trying Again" modifier, a -2 per retry. The wording is "may attempt a task she has previously failed, but each successive attempt incurs a -2 dice pool modifier", I interpret "failed" as the TM did not get the result they intended to and are retrying the test. Well within RAW and using it on something like "re-threading to maximum" is exactly the RAI of this rule in the first place.

I like this as well... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Wraith235]

I haven't actually heard 'skill + program' in the context of the dice cap.

Took me a while to get back here .... but here is the quote for you

pg 226 SR4A Last paragraph

In Matrix tests, the attribute portion of the test is replaced with a
program or Matrix attribute. For example, rather than using Gunnery
+ Agility to fre from an assault drone, you would use Gunnery +
Command if you were fring a mounted medium machine. All rules
that apply to attributes apply to programs or Matrix attributes instead.

[KarmaInferno]

Yeah, but that's still basically attribute + skill.

Skills for Autonomous Mode are Autosofts and of course the driver's skill for AR and VR.

Vehicle attribute is mostly Pilot. AR attribute is mostly Command. VR Attribute is mostly Response.




-k

[sabs]

It says Matrix tests.
so really, Hacking+Exploit should work the same way.

[Wraith235]

the example is ... Gunnery (skill) + Command (program)
so by defaultt ... Hacking (skill) + Exploit (program)

forgive me for the next statment I just woke up and brain isnt in 100% Function mode yet

a Drone Firing a weapon uses Pilot + Clearsight I think ?

Gunnery + Command assumes your jumped into the drone thereby making it a matrix test

[sabs]

Gunnery+command is not jumped into, it is 'remote control'
jumped into would be sensors+gunnery

Just to make your life more hellish (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
A drone firing would use Pilot+targetting

Which is dumb.

Rigger with Gunnery: 5, Command 6
A Drone with response 3, sensors 2, Pilot 3, targetting 3

When shooting it's mounted weapon
Jumped in: 9 DP (includes +2 for VR)
remote controlled: 11 DP
Pilot: 6 DP

Those numbers seem very weird to me.

[Wraith235]

hey I dont claim to know Riggers very Well ....BUT ....Either way

Skill + Program (nod)

[KarmaInferno]

It's clearer to say Skill + Attribute.

Autosofts are programs, Pilot is a program, Command is a program. Some programs are Skill equivalents, some are Attribute equivalents. It gets confusing.

And sometimes it's Skill + Hardware. Response, Sensor, etc. Which is still Skill + Attribute.



-k

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, that's why I asked. It really is messy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[tagz]

Yeah, do a hack using skillwires and it's Program + Program.