Okay, I'm a hacker looking to boost some of my programs beyond rating 6. I want to make sure I understand what's involved. I'm primarily looking at the Optimization Code option from Unwired. As I understand it:
I have to code it myself (makes sense)
I can buy the option Optimization at rating 6 (it's described as an add-on) or any other option (like ergonomics) as long as it's not better than rating 6.
That means I can create up to a rating 12 program and then just add on the options that I bought.
I have to keep patching it myself or get someone I trust to do it.
Also:
I can code my own Firewall (I'm not sure what limit this obeys. I don't see it tied to Response or System, so can I upgrade it to whatever I can code, because I don't think I can optimize it)
I can code my own OS System but it's limited by Response so it'll max out at 6.
I can build my own Hardware beyond rating 6 but there's no cost listed so it's DM's call.
Thank you for your help.

Technically, you can write your own Nexus System, which isn't capped by the node's Response Rating. However there are no specific rules for doing so.

Understand that yes, you can do all those things.

But given the thresholds and intervals you're basically talking about dropping out of what ever game you're in for the foreseeable future.

Lets say you wanted to write a Nexus System 12

Your TN is going to be 24
Your Interval is going to be 6 months. (of 8 hours a day work)

Lets say you're a superhacker
Logic 11 (genetherapy for 7 Max natural, +4 from cyber augmentations)
Software 7
+6 Programing Suite

That's 24 Dice
We'll assume that you roll average across the board and buy our hits at 3:1
First Roll: 8 hits - 6 months pass
Second Roll: 23 Dice - 7 hits - 6 more months pass
Third Roll: 22 Dice - 7 Hits - 6 more months pass
4th Roll: 21 Dice - 7 hits - 6 more months pass.. you're done!

It just took you 2 years of 8 hours a day coding to write your system 12 program. Which, your GM should start degrading once a month.

And that's if you're a superhacker.

If you're a more realistic hacker and you've got
Logic 7, Software 5(6), and a programing suite of 4 it's going to take even longer.

Theoretically, you can halve that twice (Environment and Rushing), but the Environment costs money/effort to steal, and Rushing can causes bugs (which take more time to remove).

Do you really want to be using a SOtA self coded Rating 12 system that's been rushed and has unknown errors?

In terms of time:
Common Use programs will be Threshold 12, 1 month
Rolling about twenty die, I should get about six successes a month.
Using a home Nexi with Processor Limit of 10 and Persona Limit of 1 with maxed attributes (roughly $6,000 by my count) cuts that time in half.
So in one month I should be able to code some very useful programs, like Analyze and Browse.
Double that time for Hacking Programs.
Seems difficult but reasonable. The biggest problem seems to be patching 3-4 programs, running, and still finding the time to run.

If you were the super hacker, had an environment that halved the time, and spent edge to reroll failed dice, your first batch of successes would be 13. You would reach the threshold on the second roll and be done in six months.

Mesh

The degradation rules are stupid. That's why there's errata that says that self-coded programs don't degrade.

Also: System, Response, and Firewall never degrade anyway.

Perhaps it's because I never run a Hacker (and am too lazy to finish the one I started rolling), but why would I need a rating 12 Browse program?

uh you don't spend edge to reroll failed dice and keep the successes.
You reroll all the dice and hope for a better success. Now you could pre-emptively roll edge. But it would on average only give you an extra 3 or 4 hits.

in order to be done in 6 months, you would have to rush the job, and use a programing environment.

This causes your glitch dice to go from 1's to 1 and 2. This significantly increases your chances of glitching.

And then you still need to build your program options into it.

And that is why Fastjack is a matrix god .

Fastjack is known for having written (a few really awesome) programs of his own. Specifically his BlackHammer program.
It's not clear he wrote a full suite

The consensus is that Edge is 'reroll non-hit dice'.

The errata does not say that self-coded programs don't degrade. It says that they don't have planned-obsolescence degradation.

Obviously, there's no real reason to spend our time on System anyway. You want rating 12 Spoof or something useful.

While this is hardly the first time this has come up, can't we just be satisfied with rating 6? You already get huge DPs as a hacker essentially for free.

"You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit." -p74 SR4a

Yes, you do.

Mesh

It's cause technomancers can fairly easily get 12s

I admit if I was a hacker, the first one I'd try to code up would be stealth. Because it's mostly a TN for other people, it's really useful.

And if (generic) you wish to debate that particular rule any farther, you can go use an old thread on just that topic.

We'll just say that it's a rule that is defnitely up to GM interpretation and that many interpretations are valid :0

Its not immediately obviously possible, but a TM can make a a -really- good business making old-school code programs.

For a minimal investment in linking a machine sprite for a year, you can have it automatically turn out a good deal of code. Due to stability, it can rush job constantly and never glitch, and either make stuf on its own or help the technomancer's Software tests. Just give it the software autosoft, tell it to use diagnostics, and stick it in a nexus/software Shop, and you're good to go.

I dunno if I'd let a Sprite code *or* rush anyway, but Technomancers are crazy magic.

I'm pretty sure the shadowtalk in one book (Shadowtech, maybe) had him mentioning his custom built deck. It still had bits from an Apple IIc in it (running as some trivial sub-component that governed the power supply or some such). The original decking book (Virtual Realites, with the "House on the Edge of the Matrix" story in the back) had rules for non-portable cyberdecks- that's probab ly what he had, because they took less time (and used cheaper parts) to build and would fit the image of a custom built multi-component system.
Obviously, in an age when pretty much anything can run any OS, such rules aren't relevant... but Fastkjack probably has kept his system up to date, nyeh?

Think about it: Technomancers are backwards compatable. They have to be, to get on the matrix.
Sure, they may go about manipulating it a bit differently, but they can drop their Software dice on any software test just like any other user.

Otherwise, you're assuming that TM's -can't- access, manipulate and change 'plain' matrix systems. The entire core concept of a technomancer is to mess with computers with their mind, so....Saying they can't do stuff regular user can is like segregating them at the back of the bus.

A technomancer can code programs and they do work for other people. But any attempt to analyze their code is pointless as it looks like gibberish.

I think I said Sprites, with the Software autosoft. Let me check back.

What? No, either a TM can't make regular programs (Because their software skill is threading, not actual software) or their code is perfectly readable by anyone (Because there is nothing that says any different).

There is a single instance of the things that TMs make being different from anyone else's, and that is one particular paragon that specifically says that hardware they mess with operates on TM magic, and is thus difficult for anyone else to work with.

As for the OP, I've always thought it was beyond stupid to code programs beyond 6 like it is nothing. The core book only offers programs of rating up to 6 as existing. Unwired mentions that cutting edge military software that is monitored, encrypted, set up with viruses, etc is above rating 6. It mentions that obtaining this sort of software should be an entire adventure of its own. The idea that a single person, working on their own, can, in a few months, make something that is superior to the latest cutting edge software of corps that have billions invested in software development, is just absurd.

The argument "Well, TMs can do it 'easily'" also seems absurd to me. Yes, a TM can thread a CF up to rating 12, providing they have the CF at 6 in the first place (6 BP) and then can manage 6 hits on a Software + Resonance test, which is exceedingly high, as a TM will generally have around 10 dice for that roll. Even with an edge expenditure, it isn't a sure thing. And then they need to resist 6P drain with Willpower + Resonance, once again around 10 dice. And then they have a -2 sustaining penalty for everything that isn't that one particular CF. So, through excessive effort a TM can maybe get, for a few minutes or less most likely, a single CF at 12. Yes, the Hacker has to put in a fair bit of effort, but that is all front end, it has no disadvantages during the run. The Hacker doesn't risk damage, doesn't have to expend edge, and basically negates one of the only two advantages a TM has over a hacker, higher grade programs.

The other reason I feel the argument is silly, is that you are comparing the abilities of a hacker to those of a TM. That's like comparing a sammy to a mage, and saying "Well, a mage can cast a F12 powerbolt, so my sammy should be able to mod her pistol so that it fires 12P bullets."

If you have the dicepool to make them come up fairly rarely? Sure. For one thing, you can negate a glitch via Edge, so there's one down, and by the RAW your GM may simply use glitches to remove some hits from your pool rather than introduce weaknesses into the code. Besides, buggy 'ware builds character.

For such a task i would apply the -1 die per roll optional rule. To limit what people CAN do. (Otherwise there is NO limit whatsoever on some thing... doesn't feel right too). While i am against hard limits in all form, the success, pools, etc. should become more unlikely the higher they are.

Good thing to do before programming: Getting a team together and make it a teamwork-extended test. (You know, have them all roll and give your hits to the lead... after that drop them per roll).

This would also explain why even with whole buildings full of nexi, thousands of programmers and dozens of AI's, the big corps don't churn out a rating 50 program. Rating 20 or so REALLY is enough, i guess. *g*

It's actually not an Optional Rule since the Changes document, but that's neither here nor there.

The point is, like Karoline mentioned, you shouldn't have Rating 7+ programs (12+ is unspeakable). It breaks everything, and that's no fun.

Oh... i think you very much SHOULD have 7+ programs. The scale is a bit wrong in my opinion. 6 should be good... but nowhere near the limit. To make a hacker viable (in contrast to a technomancer) they need it.

I say: power to the hacker, finesse to the technomancer.

Then go change the book. If anything, the Technomancer should be toned down, not the hacker buffed up. And especially not via *programs*, which anyone can use without Logic or skill.

Really? Because my average DPs with a hacker tend to be quite a bit better than with a TM, not to mention having easy access to every single program at 6 as opposed to having to thread to get that normally, and better utility outside the matrix.

That specific paragon makes it so that things made by its followers are so different that even other TMs (excepting other followers of the paragon) have problems understanding it, that doesn't mean when a normal TM works things it's NOT unusual to an unemerged person (mundane or magical). It's a matter of interpretation, and really up to GM ruling, but it is a good way of explaining why TMs can learn the retro way of doing things everyone else does if they want to, but that the unemerged can't learn how a TM does things, even with the software and hardware skills. Again, there's nowhere saying a TM can't use their version of these skills to do everything an unemerged does with their version, just that the two ways are different and that it's like the whole backwards compatibility thing mentioned above. You can play X-Box (unemerged) games in the 360 (the TM), but you can't put the 360 games in the old X-Box and expect it to work. This is something that should have been explained in greater detail in Unwired but wasn't and so is still left to the GM to interpret.

And agreed with everyone else on the issue, the only time a runner should have 7+ in a program (if they're not a TM) is if it's something they "acquired" on a run.

Hehe, you and I will always butt heads on the 'what a TM's skills encompass' issue I think

You're right, it messes it up for TMs that aren't a follower as well, but my point stands that it is the only instance in the rules where it mentions the things that a TM makes being any different from what anyone else makes.

As for your X-Box example, it's like I've always said, the book never says specifically yes or no that a TM's computer skill allows them to pick up a commlink and use it. It does say they can't teach their skill to a non-TM because it is so different. I've always thought the TM's hacking skill of "I concentrate really hard on making the system's firewall let me through." doesn't exactly jive well with a hacker's hacking skill of "I run crack.exe and list.exe and sniffer.exe and...". Sure, a TM using their living persona can access computers and make them do what they want, but that is because they have powers in the matrix. Outside the matrix they're just people, and there is no reason to believe that without connecting through the matrix they would really have any idea how to even find the 'file' tab in the toolbar and hit 'print' to make something print out. They're used to just thinking "Okay, print this file" and it happens.

At least we agree on the programs Players forget that anything they can do, the corps can do 1000 times more. If getting a rating 12 program is really as easy as spending a couple months coding away by yourself, then the corps should have no problem getting a rating 30 program in less time by utilizing their thousands of computer R&D people. I figure if skills are limited to 6, with a very difficult 7, then programs should likely be limited to 6, with a very difficult 7.

The base concept is flawed, see Unwired Page 114 Heading Programing Options: you can only add up to 1/2 (round down) its rating in options. That means, it Maybe possible to creating up to rating 9. I don't think it is but I can see the argument. Its clear to me that option is intended to let you can run rating 6 programs on commlink with a rating 3 system.

Why you would ever want to do such a thing is well beyond my comprehension, but there it is.

Which is why I say it's left to GM interpretation. Some GM's believe as you do that a TM's hardware skill is the same as an unemerged hardware skill, the exact same skill and can be taught back and forth, but that the other skills do not translate over (i.e. software is only for threading, etc). Others interpret it as two seperate skills that do the same thing but do it differently (like my example in another thread about the urbanite and the native getting themselves unlost), and that the TM does not need to learn the retro versions to code, etc. There's nothing saying that a TM that does not follow that one Paragon codes, fixes drones, etc in a way that is unusual to the unemerged, but there's nothing saying that they don't either. All we have to go on is that one little paragraph stating that TM versions of the skills can't be taught to non-TMs, but that TMs can learn the more retro method of doing things if they want, and most wouldn't.

But the basic fact is, even non-hackers with no skill in data search, computer, etc can use a commlink unless they take the inept quality (or whichever one it is, AFB at work again). Sure, they're defaulting on the tasks, but that's good enough for them to get by with what they need - making calls, checking their nuyen balance, shopping (which is done pretty much automatically for them), etc. It's like with cell phones today, most people can use them, but only the people who use them obsessively (i.e. teens) to text, check email, browse the web, etc would be considered to have any ranks in the "cell phone" skill. So even without the mundane versions of the skill, a TM can pick up a link and run it for calls and the like, and they'll probably slave it to their bionode (which would require hacking if the GM deems the need, as you say) at which point all bets are off and they run it through their bionode, thus back to their own personal skills of thinking about it rather than relying on image link contacts or AR gloves, etc.

Also, there IS a slightly easier way for a TM to get a 12 rating in a CF than the one you described above, but it involves registering a rating 6 sprite with the CF (which is then a matter of taking fading twice, the second time potentially twice as much as the first, but only stun in that case if they already have resonance 6). But that takes at least 6 hours time, so again not something to do on the fly.

As for the whole "don't buff hackers, tone down TMs" thing, TMs are quite possibly the weakest characters right out of the gate. A starting unemerged hacker generally has higher rating programs, link, more programs, etc. TMs can still overshadow the whole group if they know what they're doing (machine sprites in well equipped doberman drones make for great combat partners, high charisma for biofeedback filter= decent for most face stuff, threading/sprites help counter the unemerged hacker's higher starting dice pools, etc), but mechanically they're easily some of the weakest starting characters around. But like mages, they grow exponentially more powerful than any mundane can hope to become. It's all a matter of what do you want? Easy, quick road to power (i.e. instant gratification), or starting small and building your way up?

Which ties back to this thread in this: if you're trying to get your hacker higher rating programs to compete with a TM, you're trying to take away what makes them unique. Except for a few skill points, a starting unemerged hacker is able to be at their hacking peak from creation, because it's mostly all about gear to them. Trying to up the ante should be something grueling, painful, and time consuming, either via "acquisition" during a run, or by taking the time away from running for a very long period of time to code/build it themselves. The unemerged hacker should try and branch out into other areas, like combat (become a good AR hacker with multiple IPs), rigging/driving, face, etc rather than trying (and failing) to get better code than the corps have.

In number of options, those individual options can have their own ratings. So it is possible for them to have rating 6 optimization 6.

And yet, there are examples of Programs (Actual Programs mind you) with ratings above 6 in teh Unwired Book...

Lets see...

Zurich Orbital Terrestrial Substation

Matrix Attributes:
System 8
Response 8
Firewall 9

Programs:
IC - Watanabe Electric Kitsune Rated 7
IC - Renraku Oniwaban Rated 8
IC - MCT Bloodhound Rated 8
Common - Analyze 8

We do not know the other Programs' ratings, because they are generally irrelevant for the writup... Notice, it is not even a MILITARY target, it is the equivalent of the NYSE...

It is VERY obvious that these programs exist in the game, and are available through industrial espionage or self-coding... Self Coding is a bit difficult if your dice pool is small (The whole reducing dice pool for extended tests, which I wholeheartedly support), but that is okay with me.

Believe me, it does not break the game if Programs reated higher than 6 exist... and in fact, enhances the game play, and, at the same time, sets a very definite limiter for what a hacker can co... If the hacker wants to penetrate the Zurich Orbital Terrestrial Station, he better be packing something better than a Rating 6 Stealth program, or he is going to pay the price for it. Of course, not every one wants to break into Zurich orbital, so it may never come up in a game. But here is the thing, if a BANK has that level of security, what do you think the security on a Super Secret, Zero-Zone, Corporate R&D site is going to be like?

Anyways...

"Credit fraud? My God, that's worse than murder!"






-k

Heheheh.... Indeed

Um. ZO is perhaps the hardest target in existence. That's only evidence that programs *slightly* above 6 exist for the very best security there is, not Joe Runner.

I would disagree... The stats I gave were for the Terrestrial Substation in New York, not Zurich Orbital itself (which would be even more secure in my opinion); it is a BANK, nothing more...

And banks are a big deal: And they've got ratings 7 and 8. Not 12, not 12+. It's the strongest Sample System in the whole book, and its much stronger than the Aztlan super-secret airbase: So, as I said.

Yes, Banks are a big deal, I never said that they were not.

What I said was that many MegaCorp R&D Facilities will be an even BIGGER Deal, and will have even Better Security Measures in Place than the Simple BANK...

As for the OPEN SECRET Military Base (Hell, we have a ton of those here in the US, some with Better Security than that, and some with less security than that)... it is not a True High Security Research Facility now is it? And as for the Ultraviolet Node, ALL ratings must be 10+ for that to actually function (See Unwired for the details), so your argument fails...

As for Ratings of 12+, theere is no real need for those in my opinion, but I could see Ratings up to 12...

Your argument is that UV nodes exist (although, only as a 'wild rumor' at Diez)? Runners should be further below UV nodes than babies are behind Einstein. They're legendarily crazy-powerful.

So, again: the ZO-NY isn't the most secure thing (I think the actual ZO probably is, after UVs), but it's plenty secure ("unimaginable amounts of transactions worth an indescribable amount of money"), and it's *only* got ratings 7-8. That's 1-2 better than the runner max of 6, not 6 better. Again, we're already talking about *mega*-corps here. Megacorps, vs. Joe Runner working alone. It's ridiculous to have the latter come *anywhere* even close.

And thus we encounter the issue with ratings 1-6:

Joe Runner with his Rating 6 software can hack the Zurich bank without being detected. Not often, but with reasonable frequency (the bank has a mere 2 dice lead).

I think you have to get through 16 layers, but yeah. Raise your hand if you expected coherence?

If you are actually trying to detect the intrusion, the System gets 17 Dice per Roll (Analyze + Firewall; Target your Stealth Rating) vs. your On the Fly Hacking attempt (Hacking + Exploit, Target 9 (Firewall) + Access Rights (I would say Security as a Minimum (+3) or Admin (+6) + VR Bonuses, if any)... so my 17 Dice to hit your Stealth of 6 vs. your Hacking Pool for Joe Average of 9-13 Dice (Skill (3) + Software (6) + VR Bonuses) in a race to the threshold (Mine is 6, yours is 12-15)... Who is going to win that race do you think?

For Slow Hacks, I will only get 1 Roll to detect you, but the odds are still in my favor with 17 Dice... I will still likely detect the intrusion...

Any Alert will raise this threshold by 4 for the System... good luck Joe Average.

Once you are in the system, the rolls for remaining stealthy are opposed (Hacking + Stealth vs. System/Firewall (Can't remember off hand) + Analyze) to detect Stealthing Characters. The system still has the advantage (IC can be set to Analyze each and every Round after all, and there can be multiple IC on a Node, as you can see from the ZO-TS Write-up)... I say that you will likely never get to this stage to begin with, because you will never penetrate the system as Joe Average, so it does not really matter...

Joe Average hacker will not have the dice pools to beat the ZO-TS in New York... Remember, the stats given (Skill 3) are for a Professional with SOTA software... so, I would expect him to lose... even a Legendary Hacker (Skill 7) with a Exploit of 6 and Stealth 6 with VR Bonuses is still 1 Dice down from the ZO-TS basic dice pool, and will STILL be detected in the most likely scenarions, all other things being equal.

Now, A Technomancer at Start can actually compete and often defeat the ZO-TS out of Chargen... If your Technomancer has a Resonance of 5, then he can generate a Stealth of 10, and an Exploit of 10... powerful indeed... Makes someone like Fastjack obsolete (if you just look at the basic mechnics of the game and not the fluff), and they only get better from there with Sprite useage and Echoes.

and Yerameyahu.... Ultraviolet Nodes DO exist, regardless of where they may be located, and the fact that they do requires Node stats of at least 10, with commensurate programming power to support it. That simple fact, and the hard text in Unwired proves that program ratings over 6 are a part of the world. You may not agree with it, but it is there. I have no problems with that. It is a goal for the future Fastjacks to aspire to. After all, I am sure that Fastjack has program ratings that the MegaCorps would drool over if only they could get their hands on them. It is possible for a single entity to have technology that surpases the masses, it just takes time and effort (and maybe a significant amount of money), and is generally a part of the plot in some way or fashion.

Our game has had the ability to surpass the Rating 6 threshold since the beginning, with the Character responsible for coding those programs themselves. Very few characters take the time to do so because it can be time intensive (And takes away from the Gameplay, or at least should unless other circumstances are in play), and can cost money for the Programming Environment access if you want the bonuses that the Environment provides.

Theory Crafting is one thing, and there are individuals on the boards that do nothing but that to see where the game breaks. But until you have played out that theory in a real game, you can never be sure that it will be a problem. I can tell you from experience in a Very Long game (Well over 2 years know), with decent levels of Karma (302 for my current Character), that Program ratings from 7-12 are not game breaking. I cannot comment on Ratings above 12 (the only one in our current game that has even close to that capability is the Technomancer, and he can Thread to 14) as I have yet to really see them in play long term. OurTechnomancer once threaded his rating 7 Stealth CF to 13 Once (and only once), and it was pretty impressive, but nothing all that spectacular, as the system he was on really required that level of Stealth, and even still, the opposed roll failed him and he was still discovered... the Dice are often Capricious that way, Regardless of Edge expenditures.

Anyways...

I have no idea who you're arguing against, Tymeaus, but I certainly never said programs above 6 don't exist. I never said the UV nodes don't exist. I said that UV nodes are vastly superior to runners, and that runners shouldn't make programs above 6, and that (as the book says) acquiring such a program is the stuff of an entire run (and then it vanishes because of all the protections and viruses anyway). I also said that the examples of ultra-secure systems have programs *barely* above 6, so there's no reason to expect Joe Runner to have that. Joe Runner is not FastJack.

As we know, your anecdotal evidence is worthless. I say this with all benevolence, but it just the truth. Your table never experiences any kind of imbalance at all, Tymeaus, so it's meaningless for you to say, 'it isn't a problem for us'.

Oh, I agree that Anecdotal evidence is just that... but it does show that (at least at one table) the cries of "Rating 7+ is unbalanced" are nothing but wind... And the fact that the "Imbalance Problem" you reference DOES NOT EXIST at one table, at a minimum, proves that the issue is a Table issue, not a rules issue. I thought that you already understood that.

Yes, UV nodes are vastly superior to Runners, never said they were not...

As for Program ratings above 6: Since they do exist, and since they give rules for programming software, expecting characters to not explore that possibility is a bit asinine. And Rating 8-9 is 33-50% higher than the baseline 6, which I would say is SIGNIFICANTLY higher, not just barely...

And again, we come back to the basic argument of whether 6 Dice is Significantor Insignificant... There are many who argue both positions; often in concert with the ratings of Skills and the Fluff, or in concert with Programs. It cannot be both.

Yes, Program Ratings above 6 should be significant in game, which is what they are in our game, but they are NOT forbidden, and are in fact fairly easy to keep SOTA once they are programmed, Just a matter of a few hours programming per month (If using the rules for degradation, because after all, there are NO limits to degradation on a Self-Coded Program, and those options are ultimately left in the hands of the GM)...

Anyways...

I think I said 7-8, actually. And again, your table is magic. Literally nothing has ever been a problem there, so it doesn't count.