Well, there's a difference between mentioning that rating 7+ programs exist but simply not giving any game rules for them, and explicitly in the rules saying, "Players can't have this".



-k

Perhaps, But I do not agree that Players should not have them...

Except for very rare and special circumstances, when they might get a single rating 7 after enormous directed effort.

If that is your style... It is not mine...

It's the book. In any case, we can certainly agree that 12 (!), let alone '12+', is ridiculous.

12+ is indeed ridiculous...

Unless you're an extremely submersed TM, at which point the things you can do are ridiculous and your GM probably needs to bring back Deus (or a very powerful free sprite, or something else) to remind you that you're still just a runner.....

I still think it's a terrible idea to allow TM's to up to double the rating of their programs compared to Hackers.

And given that ZO Terrestrial is listed as having program ratings of about 8. That's just beyond the pale. When TMs were an NPC type.. well okay .. but as PC's they overshadow Hackers/Riggers way too much.

Think about it. a TM with Command 12, and Drones. Not to mention Drones with Force 12 Sprites.

I STILL hate sprites and spirits in this game. Well... mostly for just ONE thing: Skills at rating and attributes at (mostly) rating. That automatically makes spirits and sprites better in raw application than any character, if they are just summoned at a high enough level.

In my game my mage and my technomancer both are VERY good at conjuring up some aid. The technomancer don't need that many complex form... he just need to go somewhere undetected... EVERYTHING else sprites can do for him. Hell sprites SOMEHOW MAGICALLY are not limited by system ressources... which isn't even beginning to make sense. (Lock a rating 10 sprite in a wireless...less toaster. And he still can outhink ANY AI.)

So... as the rules stand now a technomancer don't even have to thread some complex forms to 5 or so if he doesn't have them or add 5 to his existing ones... he can just conjure up a complete set of matching programs in spriteform. Yes, he still has to "waste" action on commanding and comunicating... but essentially he can just say to the hacker: "Oh you have a rating 6 suit and a rating 6 mook? Nice... let me get a better one for that. BANG here is my rating 10 sprite."

That is just not fair. Rating 12 and more should be possible for everyone. The hacker has to throw hundreds of thousand of nuyen at it, the technomancer has to take drain.

If we disallow high rating programs, technomancers need to have their rules rewritten.

I am for updating the fluff and the descriptions of the nodes in the world. High-security and high-ressource nodes should BEGIN at rating 6.

Also: MORE POWER to the AIs. The rules are just bad... but we can fix that easily.

On the topic of Technomancers: I should look over my proposed hacking rules and deal with sprites and threading.

Technomancers take 1 point of unhealable permanent physical damage everytime they use a CF?

That would be terrible.

Also, some CFs are passive (Stealth is a CF!)

It would only be terrible if you thought Technomancers weren't horrible

The problem is really that Threading is too cheap. There's really no reason why a TM should ever have less than the optimum amount of threading ("Oh, I didn't get four hits. I drop it and try again. It's a non-action to do so.")

[brainless double post]

Personally, I don't mind that it is a non-action, but I don't think you should be able to thread the same thing back to back. B-Bandit for example (a TM of mine) would thread 2-3 CFs per IP, but they were all different, allowing her to switch quickly from browsing the node for useful info to defensive mode, and then to offensive to attack and switch back to defensive. She risked alot of fading switching back and forth like that, but I think that should be an option, and seems to highlight the main difference between hackers and TMs which is that hackers are stuck with static abilities (in the timeframe of a hack) while a TM can customize their abilities on the fly.

One of the big things that people forget when complaining about TMs having access to rating 12 CFs (Besides ignoring the 6P stun against a pool on which it is hard to get more than 12 dice and needing 6 hits on a DP that is usually around 12 in the first place) is that Hackers have access to all kinds of boosting ware. Math SPU and Enchephalon and PuSHeD and Neocortical nanites. Between all those the average hacker has +6 dice or so that the TM doesn't have access to without burning precious resonance. So sure, a TM can get 6 extra dice from higher CF ratings (At the cost of huge fading) but the hacker can get those 6 extra dice from ware, which means they end up on nearly identical footing. And I guess we don't even need to get into the fact that a TM has 5 more stat requirements than a Hacker as well as 3+ skill requirements.

Also, for people complaining about sprites doing all a TMs work, well, to be perfectly honest, their DPs aren't that impressive, and most of them don't have stealth, which means that they will get instantly found out as soon as they enter the node, limiting their usefulness quite a bit.

Still, Threading as a Free Action would at least put things back into the action economy. If there isn't already one, add an Echo that gives extra Free actions just for Threading.

Even as a free action it would kind of suck for switching stuff out. And there are already so many desirable Echos out there that simply throwing an extra free action for threading hardly makes up for it.

Perhaps the easiest solution is whenever a TM tries re-threading the same CF because they didn't like the result they got, they get slapped with a penalty (Shaken confidence or however you want to explain it)

It's supposed to suck.

@Karoline

Do Neocortical nanites boost Matrix actions? I've been playing under the assumption that the bonus from neocortical nanites (and the encephelon boost) did not affect Matrix actions because you do not roll Logic, just skill and program. I know Encephelon 2 gives a +1 to Matrix actions but does the general bonus to logic skill rolls also apply?

On Technomancers, I haven't played them or with them but given how specialized they are I don't have a problem with them being stronger in the Matrix. They should be, especially since (per my understanding) a Technomancer is limited to the Matrix while a Hacker can also be a second string Street Samurai or Face.

PS. I don't have a problem with Technomancers being better in the Matrix than Hackers. I just want reasonable options for advancement as a Hacker beyond what I can get at character creation.

Yeah, they work because they provide a DP bonus to "any logic-linked skill". The fact that logic isn't actually used in the test is irrelevant, it is the fact that the skill is linked to logic which provides the bonus.

"When using Logic-connected skills, this implant increases the user’s dice pool by +1 per rating point". 'Logic-connected' is the classic hacker cheat, yes. See also PuSHeD.

I use the "Trying Again" modifier, a -2 per retry. The wording is "may attempt a task she has previously failed, but each successive attempt incurs a -2 dice pool modifier", I interpret "failed" as the TM did not get the result they intended to and are retrying the test. Well within RAW and using it on something like "re-threading to maximum" is exactly the RAI of this rule in the first place.

Seems quite reasonable to me.

ok Ive jumped into this thread very late and I have done a lot of research on programs lately


heres the issues

the best Comlink you can get is a Fairlight Caliban response 4 signal 5 (unless Im missing some somewhere)

you can apply a maximum of a +2 to any single attribute via a module

Modules are listed from rating 1-6

note that modules are limited to hardware alone

yes programs can be coded at any rating

threshold is Rating x2(or rating for common use) interval 1 month (1 week with an ARE and rushing)

Yes system can be coded at any rating

this one is Rating x2 6 month interval (1&1/2 months with ARE and rushing)

the problems come when you try to run a 7+ program on your commlink

Programs are limited by system ... which is then Limited by response

I can see only 1 reason to have a system 7 and Rating 7 programs .... and thats if your always running with your Reality Filter and ALWAYS winning that roll because you gain +1 response (total of 7)
NOTE: if your Reality filter looses your down to a 5 response ... and therefor everything drops to a 5

other than that there is no reason to have anything above a 7 because they simply cannot run

as for program options ... they do not raise the rating of the program

they only raise the availability of the program by +2R each

you can have 3 seperate options on a rating 6 program .... keep in mind that an option with no rating is considered a rating 3 for cost purposes (attack 6 Erganomic / Armor piercing 3 / targeting)


where ?
eratta is very difficult to sift through for specific things ... only reason I ask

You should read back through this (and other) threads, as part of your research. You're not quite right on how System and Response limit things, for one.

The Errata only says that self-coded programs don't degrade from 'planned obsolescence'. They should certainly still degrade from actual obsolescence.

actually I am correct on system and response

pg. 222 SR4A
System measures the power of the device’s operating system (OS)
sofware. Tis includes its stability, multitasking properties, ability to
control hardware, resources, and the general quality of its code. If the
System sofware ever crashes, the entire device crashes. System limits
the rating of programs running on the device, and sets the limit on most
devices for the number of programs that can be run without a Response
drop. The System program is limited by the base Response rating of the
device it is on: if the base Response rating of the device is lower than the
System rating, then the System rating is set to equal the Response rating.
System also sets the size of the Matrix Condition Monitor of persona
programs running on the device (Cybercombat, p. 236).

pg. 232 SR4A
In order to use a program, it must be running. A running program
is executed by the device on which your persona is running and
belongs to your persona; only you may use the program. The System
rating of the device limits the rating of the program. A program operates
at its own rating or the System of the device, whichever is lower.

if theres a page referance that shows how Response--> system ---> Programs is not the case please point it out .... and no I am not talking Techno's as they by default break 85% of the hacking rules ... Im talking Code and programs

I assume your talking about the reality filter and I'll admit Im wrong there after the quotes as the word "Base" is used

and yes I scoured through the thread before yo replied and it was a few replies later that I saw that

Yup. "Base" is a pretty important distinction. In addition, and as mentioned dozens of times in this thread: Optimization.

I'm not trying to rag on you, but it's important to read back to avoid the repetition.

I admit I have not Read that one in depth ...... but I will ....

I was talking base rules w/o optimization since thats what things looked like in the begining

Yeah, it's a pretty major change, and it throws the System limit out the window. :/

ok .... ya .... thats relativly sick

tho the wording is signifigantly different between the 2 editions of the core book ... unwired was linked to SR4 ... not SR4A

but ya .... it definatly changes the program/comlink hacker

but at the same time I see why it was done .... it puts them on par with the techno allbeit for MUCH less effort and cost (1275 for a Erg / opt 6 program pirated in roughly 10-12 hrs) with a week on the patch

tho a techno w/ a reso 12 (6 submersion grades) can still outclass them through threading (CF12 max thread to a 24)

and IMHO the clasic cyber hacker needed something .... with technos in 4th there was no reason to run any hacker other than a techno due to the pure superiority they held for a long time

24? with a 20 max die pool, what the hell.
Why do technos need that much /stuff/

noone gets to have a 'skill' over 7.. except mages with Magic.. but a 24?
That's ridiculous.

Mages are the same way though sabs, at Magic 12 they can overcast to force 24 (without the sustaining penalty). And think about trolls with good armor on their damage soak rolls, or full blown elf social adepts, or a human or pixie with a high edge, or any other example. There's lots of ways to get ridiculously high dice pools, and most people don't need to soak physical damage for them.

Indeed, getting a 24 CF (Ignoring the 285 karma for resonance, 123 karma for submersion, and 57 karma per CF) would require getting 12 hits on a software + resonance test. Even assuming 12 resonance, 7 software, and a paragon, you only have 21 dice to get 12 hits, and then you have to resist 12P fading with a (stat) + resonance test which is going to max out around 19. Even if you burn edge on both tests you're not very likely to get enough hits.

People really need to stop going "Holy crap, look at these things that could happen" with no consideration for it being possible but not probable. As I've said from the beginning, yes, a starting TM can get a 12 program in theory but it is exceptionally difficult and requires sacrifices. Comparing it to just coding up a rating 12 program is, frankly, stupid.

And once again, people have ignored the 6 points worth of bonuses that Hackers can easily get to all their matrix stuff, which evens out the bonus that TMs can get through threading, except the hacker doesn't have to worry about rolling good for the bonus, or taking damage for the bonus.

People who complain about TMs have obviously never played both a TM and a hacker, or they've made their hacker wrong.

hey I said Max ... as in absolute max ....

and yes I have played a techno

ans while theoretical and improbable.... Dice cap would be 24 + 6(7 with aptitude) x2 .... not 20 .... keep in mind Dicepool cap says skill + attribute (or in this case skill + program)x2 or 20 whichever is higher

I haven't actually heard 'skill + program' in the context of the dice cap.

I like this as well...

Took me a while to get back here .... but here is the quote for you

pg 226 SR4A Last paragraph

In Matrix tests, the attribute portion of the test is replaced with a
program or Matrix attribute. For example, rather than using Gunnery
+ Agility to fre from an assault drone, you would use Gunnery +
Command if you were fring a mounted medium machine. All rules
that apply to attributes apply to programs or Matrix attributes instead.

Yeah, but that's still basically attribute + skill.

Skills for Autonomous Mode are Autosofts and of course the driver's skill for AR and VR.

Vehicle attribute is mostly Pilot. AR attribute is mostly Command. VR Attribute is mostly Response.




-k

It says Matrix tests.
so really, Hacking+Exploit should work the same way.

the example is ... Gunnery (skill) + Command (program)
so by defaultt ... Hacking (skill) + Exploit (program)

forgive me for the next statment I just woke up and brain isnt in 100% Function mode yet

a Drone Firing a weapon uses Pilot + Clearsight I think ?

Gunnery + Command assumes your jumped into the drone thereby making it a matrix test

Gunnery+command is not jumped into, it is 'remote control'
jumped into would be sensors+gunnery

Just to make your life more hellish
A drone firing would use Pilot+targetting

Which is dumb.

Rigger with Gunnery: 5, Command 6
A Drone with response 3, sensors 2, Pilot 3, targetting 3

When shooting it's mounted weapon
Jumped in: 9 DP (includes +2 for VR)
remote controlled: 11 DP
Pilot: 6 DP

Those numbers seem very weird to me.

hey I dont claim to know Riggers very Well ....BUT ....Either way

Skill + Program (nod)

It's clearer to say Skill + Attribute.

Autosofts are programs, Pilot is a program, Command is a program. Some programs are Skill equivalents, some are Attribute equivalents. It gets confusing.

And sometimes it's Skill + Hardware. Response, Sensor, etc. Which is still Skill + Attribute.



-k

Yeah, that's why I asked. It really is messy.

Yeah, do a hack using skillwires and it's Program + Program.