I miss the old feeling.. Options

[silva]

I miss the pink mohicans.

I miss the badass attitude of the "suck cheese shark face" street sam by bradstreet.

I miss the feeling of chaos from 1st and 2nd editions art, like that gang riding the car with a lone star cop.. on the outside and upside down.

I miss the "techno-tribal" aesthetics that mixed chrome, feathers and maya symbols.

I miss the logo with a skull and scroll on a chipboard.

I miss the Rocker archetype.

I miss the shadowtalk.

I miss cyberdecks.

I miss Fuchi.



So, who else think that with each new edition, SR got more and more sanitized, with too much cyber and too little punk ?

[Tanegar]

I definitely miss shadowtalk. IMO, that was the most entertaining part of the old sourcebooks, runners nattering about bits of gear and goings-on in the world. I kind of think cyberdecks were doomed from the get-go, even though nobody could reasonably have predicted the advent of wireless networking back then. I miss the multitude of spirit types that shamans could conjure. I miss hermetics having to bind elementals before they could give them orders. I definitely think Shadowrun has gotten blander over time, but I also continue to find it more interesting than most other games and settings.

[Yerameyahu]

I think all of those, except cyberdecks, are still there. It's just fluff, so you're responsible.

[Kruger]

Don't miss the Rocker by any means. Rocker was stupid.

Do prefer pretty much everything else from 2e and 3e. Eliminating decking and cyberdecks from the game forcibly yanked an integral part of the universe out of Shadowrun. Everything about hacking on the fly via steroidal smartphones and Nintendo Power Gloves is wrong for the game. Miss the high tech, low life feeling. Miss when Magic had balance to it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think all of those, except cyberdecks, are still there. It's just fluff, so you're responsible.

I agree except for the Cyberdecks... Nexi are the new Cyberdecks in my opinion... or at least they can be anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Don't miss the Rocker by any means. Rocker was stupid.

Do prefer pretty much everything else from 2e and 3e. Eliminating decking and cyberdecks from the game forcibly yanked an integral part of the universe out of Shadowrun. Everything about hacking on the fly via steroidal smartphones and Nintendo Power Gloves is wrong for the game. Miss the high tech, low life feeling. Miss when Magic had balance to it.

Loved the Rocker... have one even now... awesome character... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)
Loved the change to the Matrix Rules, at least they are useable now...
High Tech, Low Life Feeling is Setting Fluff, that is your responsibility to highlight as a Player or GM... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
Magic is unbalanced? Huh...

[Kagetenshi]

I think all of those, except cyberdecks, are still there. It's just fluff, so you're responsible.

This results in a bland universe populated only by what the GM can introduce while performing all of the other tasks of GMing. The strength of a detailed world is that players can discover it without the GM needing to be involved at all.

~J

[Yerameyahu]

Huh? What do you want them to do, read SR novels? Or is the OP arguing that the presets are 'blander' than they used to be? Fluff goes in them, after all.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This results in a bland universe populated only by what the GM can introduce while performing all of the other tasks of GMing. The strength of a detailed world is that players can discover it without the GM needing to be involved at all.

~J

Isn't that the GM's Responsibility though? And should not some of that responsibility rest upon the Players as well?
Does at our table... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[hobgoblin]

Don't miss the Rocker by any means. Rocker was stupid.

Do prefer pretty much everything else from 2e and 3e. Eliminating decking and cyberdecks from the game forcibly yanked an integral part of the universe out of Shadowrun. Everything about hacking on the fly via steroidal smartphones and Nintendo Power Gloves is wrong for the game. Miss the high tech, low life feeling. Miss when Magic had balance to it.

Problem was that sticking with the decks made the game look more and more dated for each year that passed. Hell, there was even a large errata at the end of SR3s print life where they finally modernized the weight of various pieces of gear (1kg "handset" mobile, anyone?). For a game that maintained internal clock of sorts, and was about the ongoing supersonic rollercoaster that was tech, maintaining such a static gear list will inevitably become its own caricature.

As for the shadowtalk, its still there. The main set of books had to forgo it tho to cram as much as possible inside their covers. If not, people would inevitably complain that fanpro/CGL was milking the fans.

Consider this, we are currently 3 years away from cyberpunk 2013, 10 from 2020, and 40 years away from the in game time of SR1. Yet some of the stuff that was supposedly high tech in those books are already old news.

[Critias]

The strength of a detailed world is that players can discover it without the GM needing to be involved at all.

What's kind of ironic about this sort of thing, to me at least, is that it seems to be the detailed world that some people take issue with. The more detailed it's gotten, the more some players insist the flavor is being leeched out, or that GM options are being limited.

[Yerameyahu]

Besides, the difference between a player and a GM is who runs the NPCs. They should *both* know about the setting, and they should both contribute elements. Don't blame the *rule*books for player failure. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Now, I never read pre-mades or fluff documents, so I can't say if *those* are getting 'blander', whatever that means. Those kinds of books *should* have tons of setting details.

[Kruger]

Problem was that sticking with the decks made the game look more and more dated for each year that passed. Hell, there was even a large errata at the end of SR3s print life where they finally modernized the weight of various pieces of gear (1kg "handset" mobile, anyone?). For a game that maintained internal clock of sorts, and was about the ongoing supersonic rollercoaster that was tech, maintaining such a static gear list will inevitably become its own caricature.

Well, the problem is, instead of advancing the Matrix and decking to mirror the advances in the real world, they simply massively retconned the entire idea of the Matrix into something that didn't even remotely resemble what it was before. Shadowrun needed a lot of retconning, but decking was not one of the places.

See, the cyberdeck never became "old tech" or "obsolete" because it is technology that still doesn't exist. The canon of Shadowrun told us that by directly interfacing the mind with the Matrix via a datajack, a hacker could become blindingly fast and able to defeat complex programs. There's no such direct neural interfaces yet, and we can't say how cyberdecks would function or what they would be like using modern tech because no modern tech mimics their function. Phasing the background tech into SR3 and SR4 was important. Those were tiny details that increased immersion by removing things that were no longer believable. But believing in Decking, Hacking and the matrix involved immediately accepting technology that isn't possible (yet?). There are good things about SR4. Giving a better idea and more believable face for the way the average person interacts with the Matrix. Massive wireless connectivity for mundane, day to day tasks and diversions like shopping and social networking make sense. Introducing common wireless wasn't the problem with SR4. It was the abandonment of everything that Shadowrun had ever said prior to that point. The game always made very sure to describe just how much slower and clumsier someone was who used a "turtle" like a workstation, or even electrodes over using a cyberdeck and a datajack for DNI with the Matrix. Taking that away took a very core element of Shadowrun and made it boring and bland. Deckers were the console cowboys, the guy who were shit hot and unstoppable in the Matrix and only with their tools and skills could they penetrate the rock solid defenses of the most secure networks. Now they're just random scrubs and data security is a joke.

What should have been done was a way to bring the canon into line with a more "believable" future. What was actually done was just to erase the game's past and construct an entirely new game universe in its place as an impostor. That's why I tend to agree to an extent with the people who claim there is no Shadowrun 4th Edition, and just FanProRun First Edition.

[hobgoblin]

except that SR is also a game, and i wonder how many times i read that a group would basically forgo having PC deckers, unless some player insisted and both him and the gm had basically memorized the rules, because the VR rules basically ended up splitting the team the moment the decker jacked in (there was some cludes for improving decker to team communications, but overall there was little to bridge the gap).

With AR, the "decker" is instead free to move with the team rather then get dumped into some broom closet the moment they are inside the building.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, the problem is, instead of advancing the Matrix and decking to mirror the advances in the real world, they simply massively retconned the entire idea of the Matrix into something that didn't even remotely resemble what it was before. Shadowrun needed a lot of retconning, but decking was not one of the places.

See, the cyberdeck never became "old tech" or "obsolete" because it is technology that still doesn't exist. The canon of Shadowrun told us that by directly interfacing the mind with the Matrix via a datajack, a hacker could become blindingly fast and able to defeat complex programs. There's no such direct neural interfaces yet, and we can't say how cyberdecks would function or what they would be like using modern tech because no modern tech mimics their function. Phasing the background tech into SR3 and SR4 was important. Those were tiny details that increased immersion by removing things that were no longer believable. But believing in Decking, Hacking and the matrix involved immediately accepting technology that isn't possible (yet?). There are good things about SR4. Giving a better idea and more believable face for the way the average person interacts with the Matrix. Massive wireless connectivity for mundane, day to day tasks and diversions like shopping and social networking make sense. Introducing common wireless wasn't the problem with SR4. It was the abandonment of everything that Shadowrun had ever said prior to that point. The game always made very sure to describe just how much slower and clumsier someone was who used a "turtle" like a workstation, or even electrodes over using a cyberdeck and a datajack for DNI with the Matrix. Taking that away took a very core element of Shadowrun and made it boring and bland. Deckers were the console cowboys, the guy who were shit hot and unstoppable in the Matrix and only with their tools and skills could they penetrate the rock solid defenses of the most secure networks. Now they're just random scrubs and data security is a joke.

What should have been done was a way to bring the canon into line with a more "believable" future. What was actually done was just to erase the game's past and construct an entirely new game universe in its place as an impostor. That's why I tend to agree to an extent with the people who claim there is no Shadowrun 4th Edition, and just FanProRun First Edition.

But I disagree that that is what happened... "Deckers" are still the console cowboys (We just call them "Hackers" now instead), and the fluff is not gone, it has just been re-skinned a bit... it is still up to the GM and the Players to bring the setting alive. Just because "Decks" are not there does not mean that you hack any differently, in fact, the Original hacking is still there (Slow Hacks)... they are just very time consumming and leave out a lot of the FUN elements of hacking, which is why that is now in the forefront rather than non-existent. If you want to use the Old paradigms, just use Slow Hacks exclusively... problem solved... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[WyldKnight]

I think it's also an attempt to keep up to pace with the current market/this generation of tabletop gamers. I know I would never played SR if you had shown me one of the older books. I want to play a magical mercenary not David Bowie....though the two could technically mix I would rather not go down that path.

[Yerameyahu]

Obviously, because David Bowie is a magical *supervillain*. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Kruger]

except that SR is also a game, and i wonder how many times i read that a group would basically forgo having PC deckers, unless some player insisted and both him and the gm had basically memorized the rules, because the VR rules basically ended up splitting the team the moment the decker jacked in (there was some cludes for improving decker to team communications, but overall there was little to bridge the gap).

With AR, the "decker" is instead free to move with the team rather then get dumped into some broom closet the moment they are inside the building.

I still maintain that even though the old system was a little slow and clumsy for decking, it was mostly the product of poor GMs and whiny ADD ridden player that cause most peoples' issues with the old Matrix rules. We played SR1-3 with PC deckers quite a bit, and rarely had any of the issues with people becoming bored and feeling uninvolved with the game. The Matrix was quintessential to the way the runs were conducted, and a decker "shoved in a closet" was still as active in the concurrent game as the characters whose meat bodies were doing the work instead of their minds. As far as having to "memorize the rules" I kinda thought knowing the rules for a game was somewhat quintessential to playing it, and not some kind of hardship, lol.

Of course, with the current generation being raised on video games and television that force feed the brain instead of utilizing the imagination, I can see where the problems could crop up. Mileage, as always, varies. But taking the decks out of the game changed the feel of the world radically. There's no "fun" in hacking now. It's just a glossed over mechanic instead of a colorful part of the game environment.

[WyldKnight]

Why didn't I think of making a David Bowie villain earlier....

Of course, with the current generation being raised on video games and television that force feed the brain instead of utilizing the imagination, I can see where the problems could crop up. Mileage, as always, varies. But taking the decks out of the game changed the feel of the world radically. There's no "fun" in hacking now. It's just a glossed over mechanic instead of a colorful part of the game environment.

That is where I politely disagree. Decks are just flavor, they don't affect the rules in anyway. In fact one player had his link hidden in an old school deck for that "retro" fashion that was coming back while we were playing. Hacking gives a whole new world to players and if it's not fun then someone isn't taking advantage of what it can do. Ripping into enemy tacnets and filling it with porn ads, taking a politicians AR feed at his massive speech and broadcasting a recording of his affair, heck just plain turning the enemies security drones on them. I don't see how any of that is bland.

[Kruger]

They could most of that before. And much of what they couldn't, I don't think added to the game. 4e made hacking vanilla and commonplace. That's not special, it's just silly. And why there are endless threadw on this forum about how to avoid "Stupid Hacker Tricks" in the game.

Plus, what I think you're missing is not that I'm saying that in all cases 1-3>4, but that the transition to 4 was poorly constructed. Wireless is not bad. Even hacking on the fly isn't "Bad". What was bad was completely deconstructing the nature of the Matrix and Decking to accommodate some kind of ADD, "Everybody Gets a Trophy" for every facet of the game style of play. If you don't miss the old feeling of the game, then perhaps this is not the ideal thread for you.

[WyldKnight]

Ahhhhh I see where your coming from. Least I think I do. Are you saying they made it so everybody and their grandma can rule on the matrix?

As for the transition part yes, I think they could have done that a bit more....fluidly and I didn't even play the older additions.

[Yerameyahu]

You seem to be projecting a lot of emotion onto this 'ADD' issue, but what exactly are you talking about? No more system maps?

[Snow_Fox]

-sigh- those were the good ol' days

[Kruger]

The cyberdeck was special because it was this piece of state of the art, cutting edge piece of tech that could turn an expert user into a manipulator of the Matrix. That was always the background the Decker character. The smartphones and commlinks and all of that always existed in Shadowrun. Perhaps they weren't as fleshed out until 4th Ed because back in the late 80s and early 90s there just wasn't the kind of vision of the modern Internet, but it was always there. Pocket Secretaries go back to 1E, and in all fluff descriptions, were the 4th Ed commlink in all but name. They just weren't as heavily focused on because the concept of a wireless Matrix didn't exist yet. But the canon would tell you quite plainly that even if they were wireless Matrix capable, a commlink/pocket secretary would make you a turtle compared to a cyberdeck user because they lacked the DNI. Wireless, brainless, complexityless hacking did indeed take the hacker out of hacking.

Introducing the commlink and the 4th edition idea of the Wireless Matrix isn't a bad thing in and of itself. It would have been very cool forhte design team to finally show us "how" everyone interacts with the Matrix on an everyday basis instead of back in 1-3 where they just told us that because they really couldn't imagine how it would be done yet, only that it would be. So in that respect, I do like 4e. It gives a lot of good background fluff that was needed to bring the game "up to date" with the changes we've seen in the 12 years since 3rd Edition. However, what I didn't like was taking one of the core "truths" out of the game.

To be honest, I never even had a problem with the proliferation of NPC deckers. It seems that for many game types, a decker was better suited to be an NPC anyway.

[silva]

I agree that the loss of cyberdecks made the SR setting much more bland, matrix-wise.

---

Some years ago I got totally disgusted by the fact shadowrun got obsolete tech-wise, because then I wanted it to be a projection of the future from the present day. I abandoned completely the setting, refused to play it for almost a decade, even began to sold some of my books.

When 4th edition anniversary came out, I got thrilled for seeing the setting was "updated". Then I got back to playing it, as excited as ever!

And then, last year, while cleaning my room, I stumbled with my old copy of SR 2nd edition, decided to flip some pages and.. it *clicked*. For the first time in years I managed to look at it from a different angle, one that showed me Shadowrun never needed to update itself. The cause I was hooked to the setting in first place, in my teens, was not for it being a mix of Sci-fi + D&D, it was the mix of Cyberpunk + D&D. It was the image of a badass looking Dwarf in dirty leather jacket with a sub-machinegun running through dark (and always raining) city streets. It had more to do with style and atmosphere, than with advanced tech.

So, in a way, I came to appreciate SR not as a "sci-fi" setting, but as its own thing (even if this "thing" is more correctly classified as retro/anachronist, than sci-fi).