Where did all these indians come from?, Native American Nation Options

[sabs]

Earth was a lost Colony of the Whale Species. Their colony ship crashlanded into the Oceon, accidentally wiping out Dinosaurs and creating an Ice Age. Sadly their terraforming equipment was destroyed and their massive frames could not be supported on dry land. They were forced to genetically modify themselves to live in the Oceans, which resulted in their loss of hands. Over the years their machinery all stopped working and they became incapable of defending themselves against these individually weak monkeys who had come to over populate the planet.

[Mordinvan]

If Bob also paid a visit to the Pentagon, to their deepset and safest command bunker, materialized and asked them if they really wanted an all out war? Don't you think that that would have made them stop and think, especially after it appeared that bullets could not hurt it, but it could definitely hurt them? There is a good possibility that an encounter like that would not be made public, for several reasons, including moral, fear for their lives, wanting time to find defences against this kind of "attack" before confronting those that have it the ability to do them.

And somehow cause all of canada to turn itself over the first nations despite not having done the whole land theft for oil companies in the first place, or being involved in any way in the lone eagle incident, or really having any reason for the concentration camps, or being significantly affected by the volcanoes....

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

And somehow cause all of canada to turn itself over the first nations despite not having done the whole land theft for oil companies in the first place, or being involved in any way in the lone eagle incident, or really having any reason for the concentration camps, or being significantly affected by the volcanoes....

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)
It is Canada, they are like the backyard of America...
*ducks and runs for cover*

[Mistwalker]

And somehow cause all of canada to turn itself over the first nations despite not having done the whole land theft for oil companies in the first place, or being involved in any way in the lone eagle incident, or really having any reason for the concentration camps, or being significantly affected by the volcanoes....

To my knowledge, it was never mentioned in either way, if Canada and Mexico followed in the US footsteps with regards to Natives. I don't think it really mattered either way. Howling Coyote's address was to all of North America, claiming it all back from the non-natives. At that point, I don't think they cared about if it was the US, Mexico or Canada.

The guerrilla war lasted years, from the start in 2014 (I think) and ending in 2017. They blew up a volcano in 2014 (which no one really believed was caused by Howling Coyote, despite his claims of doing so) and used weather to affect things for the next few years and only exploded 3 other volcanos when the US started a genocidal program to eliminate all native tribes.

Canada and Mexico didn't really need to have any mountains blow up for them to realize that Howling Coyote and the natives could really do it, so they sat down with the US and the natives and crafted the Treaty of Denver.

So, does that mean that you accept the rest of what I wrote?

[Mistwalker]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)
It is Canada, they are like the backyard of America...
*ducks and runs for cover*

Looks around for someone to start a ghost dance to explode Brazilian_Shinobi's head!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Acme]

Morindvan, just trying to see where you're coming from, and thus have just a few questions.

1) If the Native population were higher, or say the fiction flat out said that the Latinos joined them or a large group of sympathizer Anglos enough to build up more than "1% of the US population" would that be more plausible?

2) Or say, magic wasn't involved, that they'd managed to hijack or procure a lot of regular weaponry.

Would you be ok with it? I'm just trying to figure out what specifically makes you hate this idea so frothingly.

[Nath]

And somehow cause all of canada to turn itself over the first nations despite not having done the whole land theft for oil companies in the first place, or being involved in any way in the lone eagle incident, or really having any reason for the concentration camps, or being significantly affected by the volcanoes....

Native American Nations Volume 1, page 73
Under the pressure from the megacorporations, which had gained true extraterritoriality with the Shiawase Decision of 2001, both the United States and Canadian governments began invoking the right eminent domain and repossessing the lands granted to the native tribes only a decade or so before. Megacorporations and coalitions of (relatively) small companies such as National Oil were granted licenses to exploit the repossessed lands for their oil and mineral resources.
Needless to say, the native Americans to whom these lands belonged did not take kindly to this land grab, dubbed by the media "The Resource Rush." Angry and frustrated, the more radical elements founded the Sovereign American Indian Movement (SAIM). SAIM made their point by blockading important highways, a tactic also used by Canadian Amerindians in the early 1990s. The first blockade was negotiated to a peaceful settlement. When the tribes protested a second time with blockades, the Canadia and U.S. governments, backed by the security forces of various corporations, simply took them out in the most efficient manner possible (except in the confrontation discussed in the Sioux nation file), but the swift paramilitary response the leaders of SAIM an important message: the conflict has escalated.

Native American Nations Volume 1, page 97
The Mohawks lived quietly until Indian land claims became controversial again in the late 1980s and early 1990s. The Mohawks supported their land claim by blockading roads into a reservation just souh of the Canadian border. The blockades were quickly dismantled by the U.S. Army. Several months later, the Mohawks blockaded a bridge leading into Oka, Québec. This time their actions led to a week-long-stand-off tat was punctuated by violent clashes between Mohawk warriors and Canadian soldiers. Once again, the Mohawk warriors were forced to back down and the blockades were dismantled.
Almost a decade later, the Canadian Mohawks blocked roads leading into their reservation around Oka, Kahnawake, and Kanesatake in Québec. They declared themselves the Sovereign Mohawk Nation. While the world watched, the Canadian governmen hesitated. The total population of the "Nation" was no more than 5,000, and only 500 of those were actually Mohawk warriors. The tactical situation was more complex than it seemed, however.
After a four-week stand-off, the army made its move. Initial army losses were high. The first assault infantry was unable to disloge the Mohawks. The second assault included armor with air support. The Mohawk position was weakened, but the warriors still helf one well-fortified in Kahnawake. Before the third and final assault, the Canadian forces offered safe-conduct to noncombattants. Their offer was ignored. On the morning of October 3, 1999, precisely at local dawn, a perfect time-on-target salvo of Cataphract wire-guided missiles hit on the Kahnawake fortification. Mechanized infantry, an armored platoon, and several air car units moved in and the fighting was over by noon. The Sovereign Mohawk Nation was completely wiped out.

Native American Nations Volume 1, page 74
[...] there was a considerable fallout from the [Shiloh Launch facility] incident. When the North American public learned of the Lone Eagle crisis, the outcry was enormous. Goaded by corporate propagandists, the people began to blame SAIM, and by implication, all Native Americans. Lobby groups for the major corporations used the public outcry as a "grassroots support" for their proposals and pressured the U.S. government into passing the Re-Education and Relocation Act. (The Nepean Act, legitimizing similar camps, was signed into law in Canada on the same day.) These Acts called for anyone connected in any way to SAIM to be confined in so-called "re-education camps."

[CanadianWolverin...]

So you to have some reason to justify very nearly every NAN having awoken? Or is this just wishful thinking on your part?

Oy vey, I suspect you are being purposefully obtuse or experience cognitive breakdown, I pretty much spelled it out in the post you quoted but here, I'll narrow it down yet again to the part you are specifically addressing, in which I already addressed your point before you made it and then will attempt to further clarify.

So if any one asks, "Hey, are you saying NAN are all magic shamans and braves?" I say, perhaps not all, but certainly more than their fair share when compared to other regions in the world and with bunch of verifiable (in the fiction) magical active skills of significant Runner worthy ratings, especially their Prime Runner NPC Howling Coyote and his otherworldly help leading up to the events in the fiction. The power of the f... plot is strong with these ones (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

This isn't just wishful thinking here, lets run some math on the fictional numbers:
Total Population of The World: (lets make that fictional number) ~6 Billion / 6 000 000 000
1% of the Total Population of the World is the estimated number of people with a Magic rating: 60 000 000 / 60 Million
Total Population of the US according to here: (rounded down and made fictional) ~300 Million / 300 000 000

Now on a lark, lets say the US region got all the world's magicians, that would mean 20% of their population would be magical and yet, there would still be 1% of the world's population being magical.

Now, for the sake of these silly numbers, lets run with there only being 1% of the US identifying as NAN that would be:
~3 Million
Then you take the 1% / 60 Million of the world being magical, that would mean if all the NAN were magical, they would only make up 5% of the world's population that has a magic rating. That still leave 95% / 57 Million to be found in other regions of the world.

So, read my words again - no, I don't think every last single NAN citizen turned magical based on what was described in the fluff but if a significant portion of their total population turned out to be magical, it would not surprise me in the least. Even if there was a relatively even dispersion of magically rated characters in the SR world across all possible regions, smaller total populations have better chances of having higher percentages of their populations being magical, its just a ratio thing. For the sake of the proposition, let's call a fair share 1% of a local region's total population being magically active and anything above that would be more than its fair share.

Then, when I read the fluff combined with that knowledge of 1% of total recorded population from incomplete records due to records/data loss/social upheaval/disasters/VITAS, people who have a magic rating having basic need of survival met by not being recorded as such, and a sub culture that held on to or were taught by a mentor spirit/immortal/horror SR functional magically active skills and knowledge (and initiations), I see it as supporting that yes, NAN more than likely had more than its fair share of magically active population.

I don't know how else I could more clearly express this as being plausible within the framework laid out by the fiction.

[Mordinvan]

So, does that mean that you accept the rest of what I wrote?

No, not in the slightest. Sacrifice meta magic allows a spellcaster to use themselves, and if they are so inclined never harm another living thing. But big D will still pay a million bucks for you. Also not sure the dragons would approve of a single entity 'bob' messing with the balance of power like that, and I know the I.E.'s who've been active during this period of time, and have any holdings in north america would certainly intervene.

[kzt]

As far as I can tell, the whole Immortal Elf bs didn't exist in the minds of the SR1 developers/writers. At least, there was no indication in the discussion of the Tir that the 15 were all 15,000 years old (or whatever).

[Ascalaphus]

I thought the IEs were in on it? The US had to be broken before they had room to create their new feudal paradise and all?

[IKerensky]

No, not in the slightest. Sacrifice meta magic allows a spellcaster to use themselves, and if they are so inclined never harm another living thing. But big D will still pay a million bucks for you. Also not sure the dragons would approve of a single entity 'bob' messing with the balance of power like that, and I know the I.E.'s who've been active during this period of time, and have any holdings in north america would certainly intervene.

I am sure you are not inclined to take care of any arguments but :

GGD is sacrifice magic, yes. But it is not Blood Magic, it is what is called Life Magic, a subtle difference but a very fundamental one. In Blood Magic you sacrifice life essence of other(or yourself) to sustain magical device, in Life Magic you sacrifice your own essence.

Blood Magic is view as a perversion of the morally acceptable Life Magic (and what the Big D was using when he 'sacrificied' himself is Life Magic), even if both function basically the same. It's like white and black magic, same energy, same methods, different moral ground and use. the main difference is selfless versus selfish sacrifice.

Dragons were sleeping when the half-horror was actively teaching and setting things in motion, they were surprised, just as the active IE were. They were all expecting a slow build-up of magic over a longer time-frame. They weren't thinking the level of magic the SR world will know to be avaliable before more than a millenium. The GGD changed all that.

Even if Ehrand presence is attested after the NAN foundation, if am not certain that he is a force in the NAN creation and was partner of Coyote. This is even rendered more doubtfull by the presence of Aina's son (what was his name ?) around David Coyote.

Great Ghost Dance doesnt only take USA by surprise, it took every meta-organisation by surprise too. They had to act fast about it, and the IE involvement could be seen by their infiltration of NAN in the way of the Salish-Sidhe then the Tir.

[Mistwalker]

No, not in the slightest. Sacrifice meta magic allows a spellcaster to use themselves, and if they are so inclined never harm another living thing. But big D will still pay a million bucks for you. Also not sure the dragons would approve of a single entity 'bob' messing with the balance of power like that, and I know the I.E.'s who've been active during this period of time, and have any holdings in north america would certainly intervene.

As IKerensky pointed out, there is a difference between self-sacrifice and blood magic. Even Big D practiced self-sacrifice. Even if you are reluctant to accept that, the GGD happened decades before Big D's will put a price on blood mages.

And how would the dragons know about Bob? The great dragons had only been out for 3 years at the most. I doubt that they would have been able to setup an effective spy network in that time. Even if they did have an effective spy network, if Bob was discreet and only showed Howling Coyote or a couple more the rituals and had them teach the others, there is no way that the Dragons would have learned of Bob's actions.

As for the IEs, unless Bob taught one of them, there isn't much chance that they would learn of it. There aren't many of them to begin with and they did benefit from the creation of NAN. And I wonder how much power they actually had then? This was a time when people were abandoning their children if they suffered from UGE and turned into a dwarf or elf.

Could you provide details of the IEs that you know were active and why they would intervene?

[Shinobi Killfist]

Small note but why do people use the 1% figure for the early 6th world. It is 1% in 2050+, but that does not mean it started out that high. It might be something like 1% of 1% or even less when the GGD happened.

[Critias]

Small note but why do people use the 1% figure for the early 6th world. It is 1% in 2050+, but that does not mean it started out that high. It might be something like 1% of 1% or even less when the GGD happened.

Because it's convenient to their argument?

[CanadianWolverin...]

*shrug* If there are fewer people with a magic rating the farther you go back in the time line, that just makes the odds better that NAN has a bigger share of the available people with a magic rating (and magical types armed with the teachings).

Oddly enough, I could have sworn I have read posts by others on the forums familiar with past editions that the books used to say it was estimated 5% of the population in SR have a magic rating.

Ahh, here is the quote of where that idea got into my cranium (sorry, would have got the code linking to the post but not sure how to get that from a locked thread):

Ravor:

You don't have to look very deep at the fiction for the 1% number, just crack open any of the various sourcebooks dealing with magic and they seem to always place the number of Awakened at 1% of the population (I think one of the older ones said 5% but could be misremembering.). However, an interesting tidbit is that the 1% is stated to include everyone who is Awakened so the actual number of Mages/Adepts have actually decreased over time as more "minor talents" have been introduced into the ruleset.

And estimated 5% of the world's population being magical would actually hamper the NAN having the early magical dominance on the world scene, so I am all for a lower percentage than 1% earlier on in the SR time line.

SR4A pg 26:
December 24, 2011

...and the Native American prophet Daniel Howling Coyote leading his followers out of the Abilene Re-Education Center. Camp guards swore that no shot fired at Howling Coyote touched him; some sort of "glow" stopped them. Ignoring their captors, the Native Americans walked through the gates and out into the storm surrounding the camp, with no trace found the next morning to mark their passage.

That sounds pretty dominant for day one at in a lower mana situation and then they have 3 years of cold war and prep time. So, it would at least be safe to guess that DHC passed on the magically active skills and knowledge to his followers mentioned in that quote to pull off what he did walking out of the camp (and that in 3 years time they would have in turn passed that stuff along). But from what we know of many of the other details now, even in just how to play a magical character, the magical resources backing DHC and his followers does give them an advantage, especially against a foe who has next to none of that.

Lets say on a lark that the US does have a few military personnel or citizens who haven't been shunned after staring at goats didn't work out and they have a magic rating and actually admit that. Now how useful is that magic rating if they have no ranks in any of the magically active skills because they didn't have a teacher of some form or another? Does the character just hope they pop up as a Adept, rather than Magician or Mystic Adept, so they can just instinctively use the full potential of their magic rating? Even if they do, who will teach them how to initiate? Those teachings had to come from somewhere and in the SR timeline, one of the chief originators was DHC and his NAN followers. So even if the US or Canada had some magic, they couldn't default and more than likely that magic rated character would need to defect to the NAN to get magically trained.

Oh wait, that would promote immigration and improve their population numbers, wouldn't it?