Abstracting Ammo, or details, details, details.... Options

[capt.pantsless]

In the interest of fun and keeping the game running quickly, in my campaigns, I usually don't make the PCs buy ammo. Sure, they need to keep track of how many rounds are left in the magazine, and how many mags they brought with them, but once they get back to home-base, (or the ubiquitous van) I usually hand-wave the whole re-buying ammo thing. Nothing annoys me more than having all the players spend 15 minutes making the appropriate Negotiation or fake-SIN rolls to buy regular 'old ammo. Not to mention math-challenged players trying to figure-out how much 5 mags worth of ammo for their Ares Predator will cost them if the price is listed in 100 round blocks. The good ammo (APDS, Assault Cannon, Explosive, anything over 4R) still needs to be roleplayed-out, but I don't find basic re-stocking to be a fun way to spend the limited table-time that we have.

I call this the 'Ammo of the Day Club' and it comes free with Low lifestyle or higher.

Does anyone else run this way?

[Semerkhet]

In the interest of fun and keeping the game running quickly, in my campaigns, I usually don't make the PCs buy ammo. Sure, they need to keep track of how many rounds are left in the magazine, and how many mags they brought with them, but once they get back to home-base, (or the ubiquitous van) I usually hand-wave the whole re-buying ammo thing. Nothing annoys me more than having all the players spend 15 minutes making the appropriate Negotiation or fake-SIN rolls to buy regular 'old ammo. Not to mention math-challenged players trying to figure-out how much 5 mags worth of ammo for their Ares Predator will cost them if the price is listed in 100 round blocks. The good ammo (APDS, Assault Cannon, Explosive, anything over 4R) still needs to be roleplayed-out, but I don't find basic re-stocking to be a fun way to spend the limited table-time that we have.

I call this the 'Ammo of the Day Club' and it comes free with Low lifestyle or higher.

Does anyone else run this way?

If the group has regular Contacts that supply them with ammunition, why not waive the 15 minutes of Negotiation and fake-SIN rolls and just charge them the appropriately marked-up (or down) prices for the ammo and be done with it. I have a hard time believing that Low lifestyle comes with a couple of clips of APDS along with the roaches.

If you're going to abstract, why not go all the way and abstract ammo usage as well? No fight in my game has ever lasted long enough for someone to expend an entire clip of ammunition, so I could abstract the whole thing without there being a single change to the way the game runs.

[sabs]

Well I could see just using the advanced lifestyle and putting in a 1 point bump for "access to ammo"

[BRodda]

In the interest of fun and keeping the game running quickly, in my campaigns, I usually don't make the PCs buy ammo. Sure, they need to keep track of how many rounds are left in the magazine, and how many mags they brought with them, but once they get back to home-base, (or the ubiquitous van) I usually hand-wave the whole re-buying ammo thing. Nothing annoys me more than having all the players spend 15 minutes making the appropriate Negotiation or fake-SIN rolls to buy regular 'old ammo. Not to mention math-challenged players trying to figure-out how much 5 mags worth of ammo for their Ares Predator will cost them if the price is listed in 100 round blocks. The good ammo (APDS, Assault Cannon, Explosive, anything over 4R) still needs to be roleplayed-out, but I don't find basic re-stocking to be a fun way to spend the limited table-time that we have.

I call this the 'Ammo of the Day Club' and it comes free with Low lifestyle or higher.

Does anyone else run this way?

Uhhh... No.

I'll make that a HELL NO.

Sorry it changes the look and feel of the game WAY to much. Ammo takes up space and it takes time to get it. Ammo conservation should be a decent part of the game. Do you expend a clip and 1/2 on that troll? or think of some other way in case there is something else you'll need it for latter on. I guess part of it is that most of the runs in my game don't end when the Johnson pays them. You could have to go underground for a while and have your supply lines cut off. You could be in a foreign area and not know how to get more supplies. Bullets are also a major component of the Barren's economy in my game.

Of course I tend to run games that are more Resident Evil than, dare I say it "ShadowRun for PC".

[Yerameyahu]

Shadowrun is meant to have ammo tracking. It should be gritty, and you should have to find a fixer (or take it from people, if it matches).

If the actual buying of Regular Ammo is too much of a pain, it's fine to simply say 'you find a fixer'. Whatever works for your table. I think you'd be missing out on another piece of the immersion, though.

[KarmaInferno]

I don't find that ammo usually becomes an issue at all in most games.

Most players I encounter seem to purchase enough ammo for their characters to last months anyhow. I don't have a problem with them just off-screen replacing used regular ammo between runs, just deduct the cost from their nuyen.

Any specialty ammo, though, gets roleplayed normally.

Players should, however, have noted how much ammo they have ON them at any given time.

And that I think is the real issue with folks who are concerned about a "gritty" game - let's face it, the mundane tasks of going to a fixer and buying regular ammo (or, really, any mundane housekeeping type stuff) is boring.

The REAL concern is how much of the stuff a runner might have on him when caught by an unexpected firefight or perhaps stuck without re-supply for an extended period. It's not HOW mechanically a character obtains his ammo stock that's important, it their access to that stock that matters.



-k

[Ascalaphus]

I've shot through the ammo in my Ruger (6) before; not all guns have such large ammo capacities. That said, sometimes I do wish it could be less of a hassle.

What about this: you pick up skittles equal to your ammo, and eat them when you shoot. Also, have a handy reference chart to see how much ammo you gain and lose.

[Draco18s]

Most players I encounter seem to purchase enough ammo for their characters to last months anyhow.

Every SR game I've ever played I bought 300 rounds of standard and 300 rounds of gel rounds per gun I owned at chargen. I generally didn't need special ammo and 300 rounds was cheap enough that it took almost no BP and was plenty enough to last me the campaign.

(My last character didn't even bother changing clips between runs...sometime around session #6 he had 10 bullets left in a clip* and swapped out)

*In one of the TWO clips in the gun, no less. Of course, the other clip was full of (lesser used) gel rounds...

[BRodda]

Every SR game I've ever played I bought 300 rounds of standard and 300 rounds of gel rounds per gun I owned at chargen. I generally didn't need special ammo and 300 rounds was cheap enough that it took almost no BP and was plenty enough to last me the campaign.

(My last character didn't even bother changing clips between runs...sometime around session #6 he had 10 bullets left in a clip* and swapped out)

*In one of the TWO clips in the gun, no less. Of course, the other clip was full of (lesser used) gel rounds...

And how many clips did you take on you for each run? And if it isn't everything where did you store the rest?

[KarmaInferno]

And how many clips did you take on you for each run? And if it isn't everything where did you store the rest?

The OP isn't discussing "how much ammo do you have on you".

He's discussing "how did you buy your ammo":

Sure, they need to keep track of how many rounds are left in the magazine, and how many mags they brought with them, but once they get back to home-base, (or the ubiquitous van) I usually hand-wave the whole re-buying ammo thing.

Two separate issues.




-k

[Draco18s]

And how many clips did you take on you for each run? And if it isn't everything where did you store the rest?

See KarmaInferno's reply. But on a run he carried two spare clips (one standard, one gel, or two standard, depending on what I figured I needed).

But the point is: I never had to BUY more ammo, which is what the OP is talking about. At some point, yes, someone went out for AV rounds and I pitched in to get a clip or two, but I never used them.

[BRodda]

The OP isn't discussing "how much ammo do you have on you".

He's discussing "how did you buy your ammo":

Two separate issues.

-k

My question had very little to do with the OP. I was just curious. Sounds like you use very little ammo on a run and I was wondering if that was becasue you didn't carry a lot or if your group was more stealthy.

Sorry for not being more clear.

[Kruger]

If your table time is limited, it seems like a reasonable thing to cut out. Unless ammunition was a real issue in terms of availability (which it probably wouldn't be in Shadowrun), players should be trustworthy enough to handle their mundane expenditures on their own. And if they aren't going apeshit with the full auto, they probably won't be using all that much. RPGs typically make gunfire absurdly accurate, because players don't like to fail even in a small way, so unless they are constantly laying down lead streams, I can't see it being an issue of "running out". I can't even remember the last time I had a character run out of ammunition in any game.

Then again, I guess it depends how your game is.

[capt.pantsless]

If the group has regular Contacts that supply them with ammunition, why not waive the 15 minutes of Negotian and fake-SIN rolls and just charge them the appropriately marked-up (or down) prices for the ammo and be done with it. I have a hard time believing that Low lifestyle comes with a couple of clips of APDS along with the roaches.

If you're going to abstract, why not go all the way and abstract ammo usage as well? No fight in my game has ever lasted long enough for someone to expend an entire clip of ammunition, so I could abstract the whole thing without there being a single change to the way the game runs.

Like I said in the first post, the GOOD ammo needs to be bought per RAW, its just the regular/gel rounds that come automatically for free. Usually the amount of cash that I dole-out makes the 20:nuyen: per 100 rounds more-or-less free anyway, this just makes for one less bit of subtraction/accounting for the PCs.

And for the record, I too have only needed to reload once, aside from when using single-shot break-action weapons. That said, I still think tracking how many mags you have on your person (and how much those might weigh) is a good thing to track.

[KarmaInferno]

There's a reason my rigger opts for the extra ammo bins in her drones.

Running out of ammo in a firefight sucks.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Typically for personal firearms my characters carry 2-5 clips on them depending on the type of weapon and the situation.

The rigger is a special case - she rarely carries ANY weapons or ammo on her*, because she has drones and a battle van. One of the drones carries an extra machine gun gecko-gripped to it's butt if she needs it.



-k

* - "on her" meaning on her drone "human suit", she being a pixie. She can't really actually carry ANY firearms without the suit - heck, even a light pistol is like a panther cannon for her size. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Draco18s]

My question had very little to do with the OP. I was just curious. Sounds like you use very little ammo on a run and I was wondering if that was becasue you didn't carry a lot or if your group was more stealthy.

I mis-spoke, my LAST character didn't use a gun, it was the one prior to that.

In either case: neither. I used very little ammo because I knew that anything stronger than a long burst would miss (so I did one long wide, one short narrow in a pass). The rest of the group was so pink mohawk* that I rarely got to shoot my gun more than once before everything was a twitching puddle of red goo.

*Ok, maybe not that excessive, but in comparison to my character they were pretty violent.

[Yerameyahu]

It does depend on how much combat, of course. Shadowrun isn't necessarily a non-stop infantry war, so there may only be a couple fights in a run. Still, and especially with the proliferation of Burst weapons, I find that ammo tracking (in combat and between combat) adds a little to the experience. Buying the ammo is not a huge deal, it's true, but how often do you even do that? Per some of the above posters, not often.

[BRodda]

If your table time is limited, it seems like a reasonable thing to cut out. Unless ammunition was a real issue in terms of availability (which it probably wouldn't be in Shadowrun), players should be trustworthy enough to handle their mundane expenditures on their own. And if they aren't going apeshit with the full auto, they probably won't be using all that much. RPGs typically make gunfire absurdly accurate, because players don't like to fail even in a small way, so unless they are constantly laying down lead streams, I can't see it being an issue of "running out". I can't even remember the last time I had a character run out of ammunition in any game.

Then again, I guess it depends how your game is.

*sigh* I guess it does break down to GM preference. I tend to run a hyper-realistic game. It is VERY hard to be a runner, but it pays better.

A few notes on bullets in my game.
1) Standard off the shelf bullets are cheap and easy to get. You just have to have the right license and pass a level 3 SIN check. However each bullet has a large number of micro-serial numbers etched into the sides of the cases and in the bullet it self. Forensic teams can match any bullet to the SIN that purchased it.

2) Black Market bullets are reloads. They either have been reloaded from expended rounds or are produced SINless. Black ops and other wetwork teams have these made for them as well as making up the bulk of business from the small time armorers in the Barrens. They cost 2-3 times as much (reloads cost less then SINless). It is also why making sure you know where you brass falls is a big deal in my games as you can get a SIN burned if someone resells your brass and it is used in a homicide.


I guess not everyone plays like this and I have to keep it in mind.

[Doc Chase]

*sigh* I guess it does break down to GM preference. I tend to run a hyper-realistic game. It is VERY hard to be a runner, but it pays better.

A few notes on bullets in my game.
1) Standard off the shelf bullets are cheap and easy to get. You just have to have the right license and pass a level 3 SIN check. However each bullet has a large number of micro-serial numbers etched into the sides of the cases and in the bullet it self. Forensic teams can match any bullet to the SIN that purchased it.

2) Black Market bullets are reloads. They either have been reloaded from expended rounds or are produced SINless. Black ops and other wetwork teams have these made for them as well as making up the bulk of business from the small time armorers in the Barrens. They cost 2-3 times as much (reloads cost less then SINless). It is also why making sure you know where you brass falls is a big deal in my games as you can get a SIN burned if someone resells your brass and it is used in a homicide.


I guess not everyone plays like this and I have to keep it in mind.

I always ran non shotgun/non revovler ammo as caseless. With the millions upon millions of rounds being produced, etching a tracking number on each is far beyond overkill when one can just track the barrels they were fired through.

[Semerkhet]

*sigh* I guess it does break down to GM preference. I tend to run a hyper-realistic game. It is VERY hard to be a runner, but it pays better.

A few notes on bullets in my game.
1) Standard off the shelf bullets are cheap and easy to get. You just have to have the right license and pass a level 3 SIN check. However each bullet has a large number of micro-serial numbers etched into the sides of the cases and in the bullet it self. Forensic teams can match any bullet to the SIN that purchased it.

2) Black Market bullets are reloads. They either have been reloaded from expended rounds or are produced SINless. Black ops and other wetwork teams have these made for them as well as making up the bulk of business from the small time armorers in the Barrens. They cost 2-3 times as much (reloads cost less then SINless). It is also why making sure you know where you brass falls is a big deal in my games as you can get a SIN burned if someone resells your brass and it is used in a homicide.


I guess not everyone plays like this and I have to keep it in mind.

Obviously you are running a very gritty 'street' game that pays homage more to Mad Max than to Ronin. That's fabulous and sounds like fun but it is not necessarily the default SR campaign style. My game tends more to professional black ops. As such, they have access to suppliers that can get top quality merchandise to 'fall off trucks' when needed. It's all a question of style.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Going from all my SR experience, most of which is SR3, I have to say that standard ammo was only ever purchased once, in huge amounts at chargen. And then we used to pick up ammo (and guns) from downed enemies.

Only XX or higher got tracked. Critically running out of ammo usually happened with APDS or AV rounds. That being said, you COULD burn through a ton of ammo in SR3, doing three passes of full-auto every turn. I still have some character sheets with a ton of ammo counting present, with records of lots and lots of rounds fired. But even then, baseline ammo was XX, usually. (Apart from the default loadout on an automatic weapon, which was always Gel). Only machineguns were usually used with standard. In any other full-auto gun I would use XX mixed with Incendiary tracers. (But then my groups tended to play without the glitch rules, at the time, so no exploding explosive bullets.)

I haven't yet played a character using a bullet hose gun in SR4, so I can't really say. I know I usually bought a ton of ammo, too, at chargen, though. I'm assuming standard ammo is readily available, too. So no real reason to pay too much attention to it. Especially as it often isn't even getting used much.

[BRodda]

I always ran non shotgun/non revovler ammo as caseless. With the millions upon millions of rounds being produced, etching a tracking number on each is far beyond overkill when one can just track the barrels they were fired through.

I'm a manufacturing engineer and I currently micro-etch stuff that is nowhere near as dangerous as ammo. As volume increases the cost of applying a materiel to a unit decreases.

Also you build to the harshest specification. I can see that some places would require micro-etching as part of their gun control laws. So you build every piece of ammo to be able to be sold in all locations rather than having a separate product line to supply someplace like the UK.

But again I run with pretty tight gun control laws too.

[Doc Chase]

I'm a manufacturing engineer and I currently micro-etch stuff that is nowhere near as dangerous as ammo. As volume increases the cost of applying a materiel to a unit decreases.

Also you build to the harshest specification. I can see that some places would require micro-etching as part of their gun control laws. So you build every piece of ammo to be able to be sold in all locations rather than having a separate product line to supply someplace like the UK.

But again I run with pretty tight gun control laws too.

What's the bulk you're etching at? I realize that the cost isn't high, but the volumes we're talking might make retaining the tracking data a rather large PITA.

If one place has draconian gun control laws, I would wonder if the company would find it feasible to just run one line for that place, and go with the next baseline. Then again, we're talking SR where 'gun control' is installing a smartlink. They may not need that kind of tracking.

[BRodda]

Obviously you are running a very gritty 'street' game that pays homage more to Mad Max than to Ronin. That's fabulous and sounds like fun but it is not necessarily the default SR campaign style. My game tends more to professional black ops. As such, they have access to suppliers that can get top quality merchandise to 'fall off trucks' when needed. It's all a question of style.

It is a matter of style, but I would say it is more "Ocean's-11" or "Lock-Stock and Two Smoking Barrels" than "Mad Max". I do love my street level games though.

I would say that the default "campaign style" is do illegal stuff and don't get caught or killed. To make the game more challenging you can make it easier to get killed (which is how most people do it) or easier to get caught (which is how I do it).

[Nifft]

Like I said in the first post, the GOOD ammo needs to be bought per RAW, its just the regular/gel rounds that come automatically for free. Usually the amount of cash that I dole-out makes the 20:nuyen: per 100 rounds more-or-less free anyway, this just makes for one less bit of subtraction/accounting for the PCs.

This is what I do as well. Regular & Gel rounds are free (up to some reasonable amount, like 1-3 reloads worth).

And for the record, I too have only needed to reload once, aside from when using single-shot break-action weapons. That said, I still think tracking how many mags you have on your person (and how much those might weigh) is a good thing to track.

I've seen reloads when characters use suppressive fire, and also when they use shotguns.