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capt.pantsless

In the interest of fun and keeping the game running quickly, in my campaigns, I usually don't make the PCs buy ammo. Sure, they need to keep track of how many rounds are left in the magazine, and how many mags they brought with them, but once they get back to home-base, (or the ubiquitous van) I usually hand-wave the whole re-buying ammo thing. Nothing annoys me more than having all the players spend 15 minutes making the appropriate Negotiation or fake-SIN rolls to buy regular 'old ammo. Not to mention math-challenged players trying to figure-out how much 5 mags worth of ammo for their Ares Predator will cost them if the price is listed in 100 round blocks. The good ammo (APDS, Assault Cannon, Explosive, anything over 4R) still needs to be roleplayed-out, but I don't find basic re-stocking to be a fun way to spend the limited table-time that we have.

I call this the 'Ammo of the Day Club' and it comes free with Low lifestyle or higher.

Does anyone else run this way?
Semerkhet
QUOTE (capt.pantsless @ Oct 12 2010, 09:09 AM) *
In the interest of fun and keeping the game running quickly, in my campaigns, I usually don't make the PCs buy ammo. Sure, they need to keep track of how many rounds are left in the magazine, and how many mags they brought with them, but once they get back to home-base, (or the ubiquitous van) I usually hand-wave the whole re-buying ammo thing. Nothing annoys me more than having all the players spend 15 minutes making the appropriate Negotiation or fake-SIN rolls to buy regular 'old ammo. Not to mention math-challenged players trying to figure-out how much 5 mags worth of ammo for their Ares Predator will cost them if the price is listed in 100 round blocks. The good ammo (APDS, Assault Cannon, Explosive, anything over 4R) still needs to be roleplayed-out, but I don't find basic re-stocking to be a fun way to spend the limited table-time that we have.

I call this the 'Ammo of the Day Club' and it comes free with Low lifestyle or higher.

Does anyone else run this way?

If the group has regular Contacts that supply them with ammunition, why not waive the 15 minutes of Negotiation and fake-SIN rolls and just charge them the appropriately marked-up (or down) prices for the ammo and be done with it. I have a hard time believing that Low lifestyle comes with a couple of clips of APDS along with the roaches.

If you're going to abstract, why not go all the way and abstract ammo usage as well? No fight in my game has ever lasted long enough for someone to expend an entire clip of ammunition, so I could abstract the whole thing without there being a single change to the way the game runs.
sabs
Well I could see just using the advanced lifestyle and putting in a 1 point bump for "access to ammo"
BRodda
QUOTE (capt.pantsless @ Oct 12 2010, 10:09 AM) *
In the interest of fun and keeping the game running quickly, in my campaigns, I usually don't make the PCs buy ammo. Sure, they need to keep track of how many rounds are left in the magazine, and how many mags they brought with them, but once they get back to home-base, (or the ubiquitous van) I usually hand-wave the whole re-buying ammo thing. Nothing annoys me more than having all the players spend 15 minutes making the appropriate Negotiation or fake-SIN rolls to buy regular 'old ammo. Not to mention math-challenged players trying to figure-out how much 5 mags worth of ammo for their Ares Predator will cost them if the price is listed in 100 round blocks. The good ammo (APDS, Assault Cannon, Explosive, anything over 4R) still needs to be roleplayed-out, but I don't find basic re-stocking to be a fun way to spend the limited table-time that we have.

I call this the 'Ammo of the Day Club' and it comes free with Low lifestyle or higher.

Does anyone else run this way?



Uhhh... No.

I'll make that a HELL NO.

Sorry it changes the look and feel of the game WAY to much. Ammo takes up space and it takes time to get it. Ammo conservation should be a decent part of the game. Do you expend a clip and 1/2 on that troll? or think of some other way in case there is something else you'll need it for latter on. I guess part of it is that most of the runs in my game don't end when the Johnson pays them. You could have to go underground for a while and have your supply lines cut off. You could be in a foreign area and not know how to get more supplies. Bullets are also a major component of the Barren's economy in my game.

Of course I tend to run games that are more Resident Evil than, dare I say it "ShadowRun for PC".
Yerameyahu
Shadowrun is meant to have ammo tracking. It should be gritty, and you should have to find a fixer (or take it from people, if it matches).

If the actual buying of Regular Ammo is too much of a pain, it's fine to simply say 'you find a fixer'. Whatever works for your table. I think you'd be missing out on another piece of the immersion, though.
KarmaInferno
I don't find that ammo usually becomes an issue at all in most games.

Most players I encounter seem to purchase enough ammo for their characters to last months anyhow. I don't have a problem with them just off-screen replacing used regular ammo between runs, just deduct the cost from their nuyen.

Any specialty ammo, though, gets roleplayed normally.

Players should, however, have noted how much ammo they have ON them at any given time.

And that I think is the real issue with folks who are concerned about a "gritty" game - let's face it, the mundane tasks of going to a fixer and buying regular ammo (or, really, any mundane housekeeping type stuff) is boring.

The REAL concern is how much of the stuff a runner might have on him when caught by an unexpected firefight or perhaps stuck without re-supply for an extended period. It's not HOW mechanically a character obtains his ammo stock that's important, it their access to that stock that matters.



-k
Ascalaphus
I've shot through the ammo in my Ruger (6) before; not all guns have such large ammo capacities. That said, sometimes I do wish it could be less of a hassle.

What about this: you pick up skittles equal to your ammo, and eat them when you shoot. Also, have a handy reference chart to see how much ammo you gain and lose.
Draco18s
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Oct 12 2010, 10:32 AM) *
Most players I encounter seem to purchase enough ammo for their characters to last months anyhow.


Every SR game I've ever played I bought 300 rounds of standard and 300 rounds of gel rounds per gun I owned at chargen. I generally didn't need special ammo and 300 rounds was cheap enough that it took almost no BP and was plenty enough to last me the campaign.

(My last character didn't even bother changing clips between runs...sometime around session #6 he had 10 bullets left in a clip* and swapped out)

*In one of the TWO clips in the gun, no less. Of course, the other clip was full of (lesser used) gel rounds...
BRodda
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Oct 12 2010, 10:36 AM) *
Every SR game I've ever played I bought 300 rounds of standard and 300 rounds of gel rounds per gun I owned at chargen. I generally didn't need special ammo and 300 rounds was cheap enough that it took almost no BP and was plenty enough to last me the campaign.

(My last character didn't even bother changing clips between runs...sometime around session #6 he had 10 bullets left in a clip* and swapped out)

*In one of the TWO clips in the gun, no less. Of course, the other clip was full of (lesser used) gel rounds...


And how many clips did you take on you for each run? And if it isn't everything where did you store the rest?
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (BRodda @ Oct 12 2010, 11:37 AM) *
And how many clips did you take on you for each run? And if it isn't everything where did you store the rest?


The OP isn't discussing "how much ammo do you have on you".

He's discussing "how did you buy your ammo":
QUOTE (capt.pantsless @ Oct 12 2010, 11:09 AM) *
Sure, they need to keep track of how many rounds are left in the magazine, and how many mags they brought with them, but once they get back to home-base, (or the ubiquitous van) I usually hand-wave the whole re-buying ammo thing.


Two separate issues.




-k
Draco18s
QUOTE (BRodda @ Oct 12 2010, 10:37 AM) *
And how many clips did you take on you for each run? And if it isn't everything where did you store the rest?


See KarmaInferno's reply. But on a run he carried two spare clips (one standard, one gel, or two standard, depending on what I figured I needed).

But the point is: I never had to BUY more ammo, which is what the OP is talking about. At some point, yes, someone went out for AV rounds and I pitched in to get a clip or two, but I never used them.
BRodda
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Oct 12 2010, 10:38 AM) *
The OP isn't discussing "how much ammo do you have on you".

He's discussing "how did you buy your ammo":

Two separate issues.

-k

My question had very little to do with the OP. I was just curious. Sounds like you use very little ammo on a run and I was wondering if that was becasue you didn't carry a lot or if your group was more stealthy.

Sorry for not being more clear.
Kruger
If your table time is limited, it seems like a reasonable thing to cut out. Unless ammunition was a real issue in terms of availability (which it probably wouldn't be in Shadowrun), players should be trustworthy enough to handle their mundane expenditures on their own. And if they aren't going apeshit with the full auto, they probably won't be using all that much. RPGs typically make gunfire absurdly accurate, because players don't like to fail even in a small way, so unless they are constantly laying down lead streams, I can't see it being an issue of "running out". I can't even remember the last time I had a character run out of ammunition in any game.

Then again, I guess it depends how your game is.
capt.pantsless
QUOTE (Semerkhet @ Oct 12 2010, 09:14 AM) *
If the group has regular Contacts that supply them with ammunition, why not waive the 15 minutes of Negotian and fake-SIN rolls and just charge them the appropriately marked-up (or down) prices for the ammo and be done with it. I have a hard time believing that Low lifestyle comes with a couple of clips of APDS along with the roaches.

If you're going to abstract, why not go all the way and abstract ammo usage as well? No fight in my game has ever lasted long enough for someone to expend an entire clip of ammunition, so I could abstract the whole thing without there being a single change to the way the game runs.



Like I said in the first post, the GOOD ammo needs to be bought per RAW, its just the regular/gel rounds that come automatically for free. Usually the amount of cash that I dole-out makes the 20:nuyen: per 100 rounds more-or-less free anyway, this just makes for one less bit of subtraction/accounting for the PCs.

And for the record, I too have only needed to reload once, aside from when using single-shot break-action weapons. That said, I still think tracking how many mags you have on your person (and how much those might weigh) is a good thing to track.
KarmaInferno
There's a reason my rigger opts for the extra ammo bins in her drones.

Running out of ammo in a firefight sucks.

smile.gif

Typically for personal firearms my characters carry 2-5 clips on them depending on the type of weapon and the situation.

The rigger is a special case - she rarely carries ANY weapons or ammo on her*, because she has drones and a battle van. One of the drones carries an extra machine gun gecko-gripped to it's butt if she needs it.



-k

* - "on her" meaning on her drone "human suit", she being a pixie. She can't really actually carry ANY firearms without the suit - heck, even a light pistol is like a panther cannon for her size. smile.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (BRodda @ Oct 12 2010, 10:45 AM) *
My question had very little to do with the OP. I was just curious. Sounds like you use very little ammo on a run and I was wondering if that was becasue you didn't carry a lot or if your group was more stealthy.


I mis-spoke, my LAST character didn't use a gun, it was the one prior to that.

In either case: neither. I used very little ammo because I knew that anything stronger than a long burst would miss (so I did one long wide, one short narrow in a pass). The rest of the group was so pink mohawk* that I rarely got to shoot my gun more than once before everything was a twitching puddle of red goo.

*Ok, maybe not that excessive, but in comparison to my character they were pretty violent.
Yerameyahu
It does depend on how much combat, of course. Shadowrun isn't necessarily a non-stop infantry war, so there may only be a couple fights in a run. Still, and especially with the proliferation of Burst weapons, I find that ammo tracking (in combat and between combat) adds a little to the experience. Buying the ammo is not a huge deal, it's true, but how often do you even do that? Per some of the above posters, not often.
BRodda
QUOTE (Kruger @ Oct 12 2010, 10:45 AM) *
If your table time is limited, it seems like a reasonable thing to cut out. Unless ammunition was a real issue in terms of availability (which it probably wouldn't be in Shadowrun), players should be trustworthy enough to handle their mundane expenditures on their own. And if they aren't going apeshit with the full auto, they probably won't be using all that much. RPGs typically make gunfire absurdly accurate, because players don't like to fail even in a small way, so unless they are constantly laying down lead streams, I can't see it being an issue of "running out". I can't even remember the last time I had a character run out of ammunition in any game.

Then again, I guess it depends how your game is.


*sigh* I guess it does break down to GM preference. I tend to run a hyper-realistic game. It is VERY hard to be a runner, but it pays better.

A few notes on bullets in my game.
1) Standard off the shelf bullets are cheap and easy to get. You just have to have the right license and pass a level 3 SIN check. However each bullet has a large number of micro-serial numbers etched into the sides of the cases and in the bullet it self. Forensic teams can match any bullet to the SIN that purchased it.

2) Black Market bullets are reloads. They either have been reloaded from expended rounds or are produced SINless. Black ops and other wetwork teams have these made for them as well as making up the bulk of business from the small time armorers in the Barrens. They cost 2-3 times as much (reloads cost less then SINless). It is also why making sure you know where you brass falls is a big deal in my games as you can get a SIN burned if someone resells your brass and it is used in a homicide.


I guess not everyone plays like this and I have to keep it in mind.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (BRodda @ Oct 12 2010, 03:57 PM) *
*sigh* I guess it does break down to GM preference. I tend to run a hyper-realistic game. It is VERY hard to be a runner, but it pays better.

A few notes on bullets in my game.
1) Standard off the shelf bullets are cheap and easy to get. You just have to have the right license and pass a level 3 SIN check. However each bullet has a large number of micro-serial numbers etched into the sides of the cases and in the bullet it self. Forensic teams can match any bullet to the SIN that purchased it.

2) Black Market bullets are reloads. They either have been reloaded from expended rounds or are produced SINless. Black ops and other wetwork teams have these made for them as well as making up the bulk of business from the small time armorers in the Barrens. They cost 2-3 times as much (reloads cost less then SINless). It is also why making sure you know where you brass falls is a big deal in my games as you can get a SIN burned if someone resells your brass and it is used in a homicide.


I guess not everyone plays like this and I have to keep it in mind.


I always ran non shotgun/non revovler ammo as caseless. With the millions upon millions of rounds being produced, etching a tracking number on each is far beyond overkill when one can just track the barrels they were fired through.
Semerkhet
QUOTE (BRodda @ Oct 12 2010, 09:57 AM) *
*sigh* I guess it does break down to GM preference. I tend to run a hyper-realistic game. It is VERY hard to be a runner, but it pays better.

A few notes on bullets in my game.
1) Standard off the shelf bullets are cheap and easy to get. You just have to have the right license and pass a level 3 SIN check. However each bullet has a large number of micro-serial numbers etched into the sides of the cases and in the bullet it self. Forensic teams can match any bullet to the SIN that purchased it.

2) Black Market bullets are reloads. They either have been reloaded from expended rounds or are produced SINless. Black ops and other wetwork teams have these made for them as well as making up the bulk of business from the small time armorers in the Barrens. They cost 2-3 times as much (reloads cost less then SINless). It is also why making sure you know where you brass falls is a big deal in my games as you can get a SIN burned if someone resells your brass and it is used in a homicide.


I guess not everyone plays like this and I have to keep it in mind.


Obviously you are running a very gritty 'street' game that pays homage more to Mad Max than to Ronin. That's fabulous and sounds like fun but it is not necessarily the default SR campaign style. My game tends more to professional black ops. As such, they have access to suppliers that can get top quality merchandise to 'fall off trucks' when needed. It's all a question of style.
Brainpiercing7.62mm
Going from all my SR experience, most of which is SR3, I have to say that standard ammo was only ever purchased once, in huge amounts at chargen. And then we used to pick up ammo (and guns) from downed enemies.

Only XX or higher got tracked. Critically running out of ammo usually happened with APDS or AV rounds. That being said, you COULD burn through a ton of ammo in SR3, doing three passes of full-auto every turn. I still have some character sheets with a ton of ammo counting present, with records of lots and lots of rounds fired. But even then, baseline ammo was XX, usually. (Apart from the default loadout on an automatic weapon, which was always Gel). Only machineguns were usually used with standard. In any other full-auto gun I would use XX mixed with Incendiary tracers. (But then my groups tended to play without the glitch rules, at the time, so no exploding explosive bullets.)

I haven't yet played a character using a bullet hose gun in SR4, so I can't really say. I know I usually bought a ton of ammo, too, at chargen, though. I'm assuming standard ammo is readily available, too. So no real reason to pay too much attention to it. Especially as it often isn't even getting used much.
BRodda
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Oct 12 2010, 11:02 AM) *
I always ran non shotgun/non revovler ammo as caseless. With the millions upon millions of rounds being produced, etching a tracking number on each is far beyond overkill when one can just track the barrels they were fired through.


I'm a manufacturing engineer and I currently micro-etch stuff that is nowhere near as dangerous as ammo. As volume increases the cost of applying a materiel to a unit decreases.

Also you build to the harshest specification. I can see that some places would require micro-etching as part of their gun control laws. So you build every piece of ammo to be able to be sold in all locations rather than having a separate product line to supply someplace like the UK.

But again I run with pretty tight gun control laws too.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (BRodda @ Oct 12 2010, 04:11 PM) *
I'm a manufacturing engineer and I currently micro-etch stuff that is nowhere near as dangerous as ammo. As volume increases the cost of applying a materiel to a unit decreases.

Also you build to the harshest specification. I can see that some places would require micro-etching as part of their gun control laws. So you build every piece of ammo to be able to be sold in all locations rather than having a separate product line to supply someplace like the UK.

But again I run with pretty tight gun control laws too.


What's the bulk you're etching at? I realize that the cost isn't high, but the volumes we're talking might make retaining the tracking data a rather large PITA.

If one place has draconian gun control laws, I would wonder if the company would find it feasible to just run one line for that place, and go with the next baseline. Then again, we're talking SR where 'gun control' is installing a smartlink. They may not need that kind of tracking.
BRodda
QUOTE (Semerkhet @ Oct 12 2010, 11:06 AM) *
Obviously you are running a very gritty 'street' game that pays homage more to Mad Max than to Ronin. That's fabulous and sounds like fun but it is not necessarily the default SR campaign style. My game tends more to professional black ops. As such, they have access to suppliers that can get top quality merchandise to 'fall off trucks' when needed. It's all a question of style.


It is a matter of style, but I would say it is more "Ocean's-11" or "Lock-Stock and Two Smoking Barrels" than "Mad Max". I do love my street level games though.

I would say that the default "campaign style" is do illegal stuff and don't get caught or killed. To make the game more challenging you can make it easier to get killed (which is how most people do it) or easier to get caught (which is how I do it).
Nifft
QUOTE (capt.pantsless @ Oct 12 2010, 11:47 AM) *
Like I said in the first post, the GOOD ammo needs to be bought per RAW, its just the regular/gel rounds that come automatically for free. Usually the amount of cash that I dole-out makes the 20:nuyen: per 100 rounds more-or-less free anyway, this just makes for one less bit of subtraction/accounting for the PCs.
This is what I do as well. Regular & Gel rounds are free (up to some reasonable amount, like 1-3 reloads worth).
QUOTE (capt.pantsless @ Oct 12 2010, 11:47 AM) *
And for the record, I too have only needed to reload once, aside from when using single-shot break-action weapons. That said, I still think tracking how many mags you have on your person (and how much those might weigh) is a good thing to track.
I've seen reloads when characters use suppressive fire, and also when they use shotguns.

KarmaInferno
QUOTE (BRodda @ Oct 12 2010, 12:11 PM) *
I'm a manufacturing engineer and I currently micro-etch stuff that is nowhere near as dangerous as ammo. As volume increases the cost of applying a materiel to a unit decreases.

Also you build to the harshest specification. I can see that some places would require micro-etching as part of their gun control laws. So you build every piece of ammo to be able to be sold in all locations rather than having a separate product line to supply someplace like the UK.

But again I run with pretty tight gun control laws too.


I'd point out that it is in the megacorp interest to maintain a significant supply of non-tracable ammo.

They WANT their shadowrunners to succeed in their missions, after all. Usually.



-k
Draco18s
Actually, success of a mission isn't controlled by the tracability of ammo. It's whether or not the team survives to run again (which megacorps don't really care about).
BRodda
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Oct 12 2010, 11:15 AM) *
What's the bulk you're etching at? I realize that the cost isn't high, but the volumes we're talking might make retaining the tracking data a rather large PITA.

If one place has draconian gun control laws, I would wonder if the company would find it feasible to just run one line for that place, and go with the next baseline. Then again, we're talking SR where 'gun control' is installing a smartlink. They may not need that kind of tracking.


The bulk is screws. Not tiny ones, (4-40 x 0.19 Machine Screw, Pan Head, Phillips if you speak the lingo). Its more for manufacturing control for if something breaks or there is a issue you have traceability.

As for tracking data, were talking about full automation so the database is next to nothing. When you can store the current Library of Congress on someones comlink it doesn't become an issue. Almost everything in today's society has a serial number and is traceable, down to the components in your cellphone. Manufacturer's require it no a days.

Again it does boil down to gun control laws in your game. It only made sense that in an age where there are great hordes of the unwashed in slums not 10 miles from the gleaming center of the city and gangs prowl the streets at night that the citizens would want strict gun control laws in an attempt to curb violence. Of course try enforcing them in the Barrens, but that's what the Barrens are there for. rotate.gif
KarmaInferno
True, but the ability of your mission target to backtrace the 'runners, which may eventually lead back to you, IS impacted by the ammo's traceability.

Even if it's purchased through fake SINs and the like, it's more info for the target to go on, info they wouldn't have at all with unmarked ammo.



-k
Draco18s
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Oct 12 2010, 11:24 AM) *
True, but the ability of your mission target to backtrace the 'runners, which may eventually lead back to you, IS impacted by the ammo's traceability.


Spent rounds -> runners -> "Some guy we met in a bar named Johnson" -> Runners go to jail -> cops never find Mr. Johnson.

I fail to connect the dots.
BRodda
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Oct 12 2010, 11:20 AM) *
I'd point out that it is in the megacorp interest to maintain a significant supply of non-tracable ammo.

They WANT their shadowrunners to succeed in their missions, after all. Usually.

-k


It is in their best self interest to make sure that THEIR shadow teams have a significant supply of non-traceable ammo.

They sure as hell want to trace the guys that just made off with 2 years of marketing data and shot Bob in accounting in the head.
Yerameyahu
Nevermind etched, everything in SR4 is *made* of nano-RFID tags. frown.gif The biggest trick (or ignore-it problem) is dealing with a world with ubiquitous surveillance, microscopic sensors, and nano-wireless-tagged everything.

Just make big purchases with your fake ID, and then change addresses. smile.gif
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Oct 12 2010, 04:26 PM) *
Spent rounds -> runners -> "Some guy we met in a bar named Johnson" -> Runners go to jail -> cops never find Mr. Johnson.

I fail to connect the dots.


The rounds would be tracked to the manufacturer to get the records, not necessarily the runners.

edit: EVERYBODY wants untraceable ammo. If it was traceable, hackles get raised every time Ares ammo casings show up in a Mitsuhama facility.

And AZT has everyone's rounds in their walls. nyahnyah.gif
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (BRodda @ Oct 12 2010, 11:27 AM) *
It is in their best self interest to make sure that THEIR shadow teams have a significant supply of non-traceable ammo.

They sure as hell want to trace the guys that just made off with 2 years of marketing data and shot Bob in accounting in the head.

True.

I suppose in your game, it would not be unreasonable to see runners negotiating non-traceable ammo as part of payments.




-k
BRodda
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Oct 12 2010, 11:26 AM) *
Spent rounds -> runners -> "Some guy we met in a bar named Johnson" -> Runners go to jail -> cops never find Mr. Johnson.

I fail to connect the dots.


As far as the players are concerned the trail goes:
Spent rounds -> runners -> spend time in agony getting tortured for info before getting shot in the head

If you don't want more people to run against you you need to make examples of them. Or do runners not fear Mitsuhama's Zero Zone Policy?
Draco18s
QUOTE (BRodda @ Oct 12 2010, 11:31 AM) *
As far as the players are concerned the trail goes:
Spent rounds -> runners -> spend time in agony getting tortured for info before getting shot in the head


Jail, torture, same diff. nyahnyah.gif
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Oct 12 2010, 11:26 AM) *
Spent rounds -> runners -> "Some guy we met in a bar named Johnson" -> Runners go to jail -> cops never find Mr. Johnson.

I fail to connect the dots.


Spent rounds -> Runners -> Runners in the hands of your target -> Runners mind-raped for info on who hired them -> Target has a lead to find Mr. Johnson -> Trail leads to you

Why would cops ever get involved?




-k
BRodda
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Oct 12 2010, 11:31 AM) *
True.

I suppose in your game, it would not be unreasonable to see runners negotiating non-traceable ammo as part of payments.

-k

The saying in my game is "Never get your ammo from your Johnson.", they just induced the ammo costs and lead times into their cost estimates. There are all sorts of nasty stuff that Johnson's can do to ammo. (One case included having the gunpowder go inert after 12 hours. When the Johnson scheduled the meet at hour 13 and tried to double cross almost none of their guns worked.)
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (BRodda @ Oct 12 2010, 11:35 AM) *
The saying in my game is "Never get your ammo from your Johnson.", they just induced the ammo costs and lead times into their cost estimates. There are all sorts of nasty stuff that Johnson's can do to ammo. (One case included having the gunpowder go inert after 12 hours. When the Johnson scheduled the meet at hour 13 and tried to double cross almost none of their guns worked.)

You, sir, are a Bastard, and I salute you!



-k
capt.pantsless
QUOTE (BRodda @ Oct 12 2010, 09:57 AM) *
*sigh* I guess it does break down to GM preference. I tend to run a hyper-realistic game. It is VERY hard to be a runner, but it pays better.

A few notes on bullets in my game.
1) Standard off the shelf bullets are cheap and easy to get. You just have to have the right license and pass a level 3 SIN check. However each bullet has a large number of micro-serial numbers etched into the sides of the cases and in the bullet it self. Forensic teams can match any bullet to the SIN that purchased it.

2) Black Market bullets are reloads. They either have been reloaded from expended rounds or are produced SINless. Black ops and other wetwork teams have these made for them as well as making up the bulk of business from the small time armorers in the Barrens. They cost 2-3 times as much (reloads cost less then SINless). It is also why making sure you know where you brass falls is a big deal in my games as you can get a SIN burned if someone resells your brass and it is used in a homicide.


I guess not everyone plays like this and I have to keep it in mind.



Two points:
1.) I'd love to play this style of game, with everything super-detailed and all, but I just don't have the time to keep track of it all. I love the paranoia feeling of the SR setting, but this level turns it up a bit too high for my tastes. That said, to each their own - you do what's fun for you.

2.) Shell catchers. Or just use caseless.
BRodda
QUOTE (capt.pantsless @ Oct 12 2010, 12:19 PM) *
Two points:
1.) I'd love to play this style of game, with everything super-detailed and all, but I just don't have the time to keep track of it all. I love the paranoia feeling of the SR setting, but this level turns it up a bit too high for my tastes. That said, to each their own - you do what's fun for you.

2.) Shell catchers. Or just use caseless.


1) It boils down to choosing setting over action. What people consider to be a "normal" run takes 4 sessions. 2 for the meet and legwork, one for the run and one for the after run mess. Then a few sessions of downtime. that means favors for friends or "pick-up work". Like hearing about a Yellow-jacket some runners crashed in the woods north of the city. They went to see if they could find spare parts to sell and whatever cargo they could sell.

2) They used black market rounds that were loaded while they were wearing gloves. It did put a stop to "I steal all the ammo from the guards though." Low resale value on the bullets and they didn't want to runs to be connected to each other.
Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (BRodda @ Oct 12 2010, 06:31 PM) *
As far as the players are concerned the trail goes:
Spent rounds -> runners -> spend time in agony getting tortured for info before getting shot in the head

If you don't want more people to run against you you need to make examples of them. Or do runners not fear Mitsuhama's Zero Zone Policy?


But that makes a crappy GAME. The real order should be Spent rounds -> runners -> spend time getting mind-raped for info -> get a job for the opposing team. MAYBE with a cranial bomb.
Neurosis
QUOTE
No fight in my game has ever lasted long enough for someone to expend an entire clip of ammunition, so I could abstract the whole thing without there being a single change to the way the game runs.


It is RARE but reload definitely comes up in my games.
capt.pantsless
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Oct 12 2010, 01:14 PM) *
It is RARE but reload definitely comes up in my games.


Agreed - the number of rounds left in the magazine adds some nice drama for the PCs - even if it's just a simple action to replace it. After all, the old sprawl adage just wouldn't be the same without 'conserve ammo'.
Myrgan
I would consider it self-evident that runners don't buy bullets in their local store with their active SIN. Bullets are restricted, even regular ammo and s'n's, so unless runners are ready to throw away their fake license and SIN after every run, I'd rule that it goes without saying that runners purchase their bullets through illegal channels, i.e. from there trusted fixer. And since the fixers don't want to be connected to those bullets, they will only have untraceable bullets to sell. As far as I'm concerned, that's all included in the gear listing prices, but some GMs might want to play it out, whatever suits you best.
Kruger
QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Oct 12 2010, 08:11 AM) *
Going from all my SR experience, most of which is SR3, I have to say that standard ammo was only ever purchased once, in huge amounts at chargen. And then we used to pick up ammo (and guns) from downed enemies.
I'm laughing and trying to picture runners dashing away from the scene of the crime clattering with extra slung weapons and pockets bulging with ammunition and spare magazines.
sabs
QUOTE (Kruger @ Oct 12 2010, 08:09 PM) *
I'm laughing and trying to picture runners dashing away from the scene of the crime clattering with extra slung weapons and pockets bulging with ammunition and spare magazines.


weapons and ammo that's tagged with rfid tags
Kruger
QUOTE (BRodda @ Oct 12 2010, 08:35 AM) *
(One case included having the gunpowder go inert after 12 hours.

Very clever, but given the nature of typical smokeless powders, seems like a lot of effort to produce a cartridge that will still work as intended without fouling the weapon or causing a stoppage, but still have room for some kind of time released catalyst that will sludge the propellant.
Yerameyahu
Maybe it's Pink Mohawk. smile.gif Nano-whatever.

It's easier with guns, of course: any security guns you pick up will be biolocked or STS or whatever (but you can Armorer that away, I guess).
Kruger
QUOTE (sabs @ Oct 12 2010, 11:10 AM) *
weapons and ammo that's tagged with rfid tags

Well, in his defense, not in SR3.
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