Abstracting Ammo, or details, details, details.... Options

[Draco18s]

"Lookit me. I'm a black Scottish Cyclops. There's more <censored> than there are o' me."

More like "<censored> <censored> <censored> <censored> <censored> <censored> <censored>." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Ascalaphus]

This isn't real-life, it's Shadowrun, it's supposed to be BTL.

That's brilliant.

[BRodda]

Microetching your bullets is a monumental waste of time.

Jack middle man goes to the store and buys 10,000 bullets. He reports them stolen. Gets paid.
Rinse. Repeat.

The government is too weak to stop him. The corps have no right to stop him. They kill him, there's someone else waiting in line to take his place.

Gun running is stupid easy.

Uhhhmmmm. KE is a corp that would take 10,000 bullets "stolen" pretty seriously. And they have every right to investigate him as they enforce the law. And they will stop every other person who does it. Arms dealing is a massive crime.

[KarmaInferno]

Uhhhmmmm. KE is a corp that would take 10,000 bullets "stolen" pretty seriously. And they have every right to investigate him as they enforce the law. And they will stop every other person who does it. Arms dealing is a massive crime.

"The five largest arms dealers in the world are the US, Britain, France, Russia, and China.

They are also the only permanant members of the UN Security Council."
-Lord of War

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



-k

[sabs]

France sells weapons to any government with Cash Money.

France:
Purveyors of cheap, easy to maintain armaments since the 1950's.

[Draco18s]

France sells weapons to any government with Cash Money.

France:
Purveyors of cheap, easy to maintain armaments since the 1950's.

You know that the Russian AK-47 is actually more popular, cheaper, and easier to use and maintain, and is much more effective than anything else on the market, right?
(Source)

[sabs]

You know that the Russian AK-47 is actually more popular, cheaper, and easier to use and maintain, and is much more effective than anything else on the market, right?
(Source)

Those are guns.

I was referring to Rockets, Missiles, Airplanes.

You remember the USS Cole Incident?
A multimillion dollar anti missile system, and a US Warship severely damaged by a French made Missile that cost 10k Euros each.

[KarmaInferno]

You know that the Russian AK-47 is actually more popular, cheaper, and easier to use and maintain, and is much more effective than anything else on the market, right?
(Source)

"Of all the weapons in the vast soviet arsenal, nothing was more profitable than Avtomat Kalashnikova model of 1947. More commonly known as the AK-47, or Kalashnikov. It's the world's most popular assault rifle. A weapon all fighters love. An elegantly simple 9 pound amalgamation of forged steel and plywood. It doesn't break, jam, or overheat. It'll shoot whether it's covered in mud or filled with sand. It's so easy, even a child can use it; and they do. The Soviets put the gun on a coin. Mozambique put it on their flag. Since the end of the Cold War, the Kalashnikov has become the Russian people's greatest export. After that comes vodka, caviar, and suicidal novelists. One thing is for sure, no one was lining up to buy their cars." - also from Lord of War

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I'm pretty sure that even in 2071, there are folks running around with AK-47s.



-k

[Draco18s]

I'm pretty sure that even in 2071, there are folks running around with AK-47s.

Probably. In fact, there'd probably be enough of them (without having made more since now) that every man, woman, and child could have one.
(There's already 1 per 70 people in the world, and SR's population is much smaller)

[Mäx]

.Yeah AK-47:s are so common, that the AK:s in the arm depo in Lord of War where actually real as those where cheaper to get then non working props

[sabs]

AK-47 when you absolutely have to kill, every mother in the house.

I remember hearing stories about US Marines in Vietnam who would pick up fallen AK47's because they worked better than the M16, especially in the jungle conditions they faced.

There is an AK-97 in Shadowrun, which is supposed to be an updated version.

[Draco18s]

I remember hearing stories about US Marines in Vietnam who would pick up fallen AK47's because they worked better than the M16, especially in the jungle conditions they faced.

The M16 was designed to be accurate at 400m+ and was rushed into production.

So yeah. The AK-47 was superior in the short fighting spaces of the Vietnam jungles.

[sabs]

The M16 is doing better in the Sandbox.. except that it likes to jam with sand in it.

[capt.pantsless]

I remember hearing stories about US Marines in Vietnam who would pick up fallen AK47's because they worked better than the M16, especially in the jungle conditions they faced.

There is an AK-97 in Shadowrun, which is supposed to be an updated version.

The AK-47 vs. AR-15 debate is a long-standing flame-war that's older than the very Internets themselves. There were a number of reasons that the M16 wasn't favored in Vietnam, not the least of which was that the army didn't issue cleaning kits for them.


There's a number of newer versions of the original AK-47, including, but not limited to, AK-63, AK-74, AK-101, AK-103, AK-107, AK-9, AK-200. Look it up on Wikipedia sometime, its a good read.

[Ian Argent]

I make characters buy their "standard loadout" of basic ammo and magazines at character generation, and assume they "top off" off-screen when they have downtime (usually between runs). Lifestyle level required hasn't come up - the one character in any of my campaigns who didn't maintain at least one low or higher lifestyle didn't use guns. Specialty ammo they have to keep track of and rebuy as needed.

As noted earlier, a shooter is going to expend a certain amount of ammo in practice anyway. I'm not a serious shooter, and I dump anywhere between 100 and 300 rounds into the backstop in a typical range session, for example. That's on the low end for a range session from what I understand - and I don't get to the range as often as I would like. An amateur practical shooter can easily go through a couple thousand rounds a month in practice. (And by "I" I mean me in real life. Though I will admit that knowing RL firearms tends to cause me to wince when I read SR on guns...)

But, I don't run low-end street campaigns, nor are my runs shoot-fests. My players have always been of the opinion that a firefight indicates something has gone wrong (not that I encourage that sort of thinking at ALL, oh no). Murphy's law applies, but I can recall at least one run where no guns were fired (and no damagins spells cast, for that matter).

[Ed_209a]

There's a number of newer versions of the original AK-47, including, but not limited to, AK-63, AK-74, AK-101, AK-103, AK-107, AK-9, AK-200. Look it up on Wikipedia sometime, its a good read.

The AK-10X series are re-engineered versions of the AK-47 & 74, designed to be built on the more precise machinery IZHMASH has now. In fact, In my personal version of SR, the AK97 _is_ a AK-101/103, just upgraded to be smartgun-compatible.

A big reason why I think the AK47 will live forever in Shadowrun is that in 2070, you can crank them out wholesale with tabletop automated CNC machines. Sure it won't be smartlink-compatible, but that's no big deal if YOU aren't smartlink compatible... like the thousands of desperate individuals in the Barrens.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

The AK-10X series are re-engineered versions of the AK-47 & 74, designed to be built on the more precise machinery IZHMASH has now. In fact, In my personal version of SR, the AK97 _is_ a AK-101/103, just upgraded to be smartgun-compatible.

A big reason why I think the AK47 will live forever in Shadowrun is that in 2070, you can crank them out wholesale with tabletop automated CNC machines. Sure it won't be smartlink-compatible, but that's no big deal if YOU aren't smartlink compatible... like the thousands of desperate individuals in the Barrens.

Uh... CNC is a really inefficient way of making an old sheet-metal gun like the AK-47. You can use a CNC machine to make your expensive custom guns, not old crap. What you want is old industrial plants. A bit of refurbishing and you're done.

[Ed_209a]

Uh... CNC is a really inefficient way of making an old sheet-metal gun like the AK-47. You can use a CNC machine to make your expensive custom guns, not old crap. What you want is old industrial plants. A bit of refurbishing and you're done.

You'll still need some kind of machining for most of the inside parts, The parts that are wood/ stamped metal today might well be injection molded/vacuum formed polymer in 2070.

My point was that the simplicity of the AK47 would make it easy to make in late 21st century cottage industry manufacturing.

[Mäx]

My point was that the simplicity of the AK47 would make it easy to make in late 21st century cottage industry manufacturing.

One would assume so, considering that the cottatage industry of early 21st century makes them just fine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

I don't buy the CNC angle.

The AK-47 is ubiquitous largely because there's so damn many of them around already. millions of them.

They'd still be fairly common in 2070, mostly because there will likely still be millions of them floating around.

Why would the ability to make more have a factor, more than making any other firearm? I mean, it's not like most 2070s firearms as presented in Shadowrun are vastly different in mechanical design than 1970s firearms. Barrel, firing chamber, breech block, firing pin. How much change CAN you have?

Why would you CNC the AK-47 when you can just as easily CNC a 2070s firearm?


-k

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

I don't buy the CNC angle.

The AK-47 is ubiquitous largely because there's so damn many of them around already. millions of them.

They'd still be fairly common in 2070, mostly because there will likely still be millions of them floating around.

Why would the ability to make more have a factor, more than making any other firearm? I mean, it's not like most 2070s firearms as presented in Shadowrun are vastly different in mechanical design than 1970s firearms. Barrel, firing chamber, breech block, firing pin. How much change CAN you have?

Why would you CNC the AK-47 when you can just as easily CNC a 2070s firearm?


-k

Especially if you're machining a gun from a block of steel... which is entirely the kind of manufacturing the AK-47 was designed to avoid.

It's true that it's a very simple, yet proven, design. But so is the modern adaption, the AK-97 (which is really dirt cheap, anyway), in a modern calibre, which you might even be able to just buy ammo for.

Ok, granted, SR hasn't done much in that department. In fact I don't know if they worry about calibre and ammo at all - it certainly doesn't seem that way. Fact is, a lot of ammo used NOW is of really old design - the Colt .45, or 9mm Parabellum for example, and it's still in plenty use. Innovation does seem to come slowly in the area of personal firearms.

The only reason to machine a gun is when you want something really custom built. Like the good old Pocket-Assault-Rifle that you could legally build in SR3!

[Ian Argent]

Firearms design has hit a bit of a plateau. "Hitting power" (muzzle velocity * projectile weight) has reached the limits of the human physical capacity, and there are few improvements to be made that aren't tradeoffs. A weapon system design in the first decade of the last century (1911) is still used as the basis for new designs with essentially no changes except for caliber and manufacturing process.

What I would be mildly surprised about if I didn't know better is the absense of gauss/coil/rail guns as personal armament - pure electromotive propulsion. Laser Weaponry and the smaller drones show that the power problems are solved. For a game design POV though, they're just like gunpowder arms in stats; so no demand. Lasers are gee-whiz - EM guns that replace the gunpower with magnets aren't.

SR doesnt' care about caliber from a mechanics point of view and never has. And this is A Good Thing. It's just another PITA to keep track of in the end; and easy to get wrong without careful checking (Which is more powerful, 10mm or 7.62mm, for example)

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Firearms design has hit a bit of a plateau. "Hitting power" (muzzle velocity * projectile weight) has reached the limits of the human physical capacity, and there are few improvements to be made that aren't tradeoffs. A weapon system design in the first decade of the last century (1911) is still used as the basis for new designs with essentially no changes except for caliber and manufacturing process.

What I would be mildly surprised about if I didn't know better is the absense of gauss/coil/rail guns as personal armament - pure electromotive propulsion. Laser Weaponry and the smaller drones show that the power problems are solved. For a game design POV though, they're just like gunpowder arms in stats; so no demand. Lasers are gee-whiz - EM guns that replace the gunpower with magnets aren't.

SR doesnt' care about caliber from a mechanics point of view and never has. And this is A Good Thing. It's just another PITA to keep track of in the end; and easy to get wrong without careful checking (Which is more powerful, 10mm or 7.62mm, for example)

Actually... the human capacity in SR is rather under-represented. All you got is smartgun, and now, affordable cyberarms with gyro mounts. Making guns GOOD usually involves adding copious amounts of recoil compensation, which is strangely frowned upon, too. The human factor is represented as a side-line in advanced rules in Arsenal, with ONE point of RC for any affordable strength rating. Whereas it's plain as day that with advent of augmentations the calibres should go UP again. The human limit should be surpassed. The super-human body should be able to hold and control a bigger gun. But no, they don't do that, which is just stupid, really.

Another irritating thing is also the prevalent amount of stupid guns. Like the "High Velocity" bullshit guns. I mean, you can't put enough compensation on them. Then what's the fucking point? Recoil is stupid, you don't want it. They should have gone the way of all crappy products and vanished from the market long ago, to be replaced with high-cyclric rate guns that actually have 10 points of RC. At least.

Actually Firearms design hasn't really reached a plateau yet. We just don't know yet how to advance. But looking at NEW bullets like the 4.6 and 5.7mm bullets that actually offer unequalled penetration at basically very manageable recoil makes me think that there will be innovations. Innovations that should improve the handling of aim, recoil and increase the destructive properties even further. After all, humans are MOST inventive when it comes to killing each other.

None of this is really represented in SR guns. Not even close.

[Saint Sithney]

Many, SR firearms are caseless.

Maybe that's because of how a caseless weapon is more difficult to produce..

[Mäx]

The human limit should be surpassed. The super-human body should be able to hold and control a bigger gun. But no, they don't do that, which is just stupid, really.

You mean to say that man-portable miniguns(in two different calibers even) aren't super-human.

Another irritating thing is also the prevalent amount of stupid guns. Like the "High Velocity" bullshit guns. I mean, you can't put enough compensation on them. Then what's the fucking point? Recoil is stupid, you don't want it. They should have gone the way of all crappy products and vanished from the market long ago, to be replaced with high-cyclric rate guns that actually have 10 points of RC. At least.

Actually their recoil aint that hard to compensate.
Internal 3
Stock 1
Gas-vent 3
Personalised grip 1
Heavy barrel 1
=9
Then have strenght 10 and you have 11 points of compensation or get a Cyberarm Gyromount giving you 12RC.
Or only add the gasvent and get a Gyro Stabilization harness which takes you to 12RC.