Abstracting Ammo, or details, details, details.... Options

[KarmaInferno]

I'm a manufacturing engineer and I currently micro-etch stuff that is nowhere near as dangerous as ammo. As volume increases the cost of applying a materiel to a unit decreases.

Also you build to the harshest specification. I can see that some places would require micro-etching as part of their gun control laws. So you build every piece of ammo to be able to be sold in all locations rather than having a separate product line to supply someplace like the UK.

But again I run with pretty tight gun control laws too.

I'd point out that it is in the megacorp interest to maintain a significant supply of non-tracable ammo.

They WANT their shadowrunners to succeed in their missions, after all. Usually.



-k

[Draco18s]

Actually, success of a mission isn't controlled by the tracability of ammo. It's whether or not the team survives to run again (which megacorps don't really care about).

[BRodda]

What's the bulk you're etching at? I realize that the cost isn't high, but the volumes we're talking might make retaining the tracking data a rather large PITA.

If one place has draconian gun control laws, I would wonder if the company would find it feasible to just run one line for that place, and go with the next baseline. Then again, we're talking SR where 'gun control' is installing a smartlink. They may not need that kind of tracking.

The bulk is screws. Not tiny ones, (4-40 x 0.19 Machine Screw, Pan Head, Phillips if you speak the lingo). Its more for manufacturing control for if something breaks or there is a issue you have traceability.

As for tracking data, were talking about full automation so the database is next to nothing. When you can store the current Library of Congress on someones comlink it doesn't become an issue. Almost everything in today's society has a serial number and is traceable, down to the components in your cellphone. Manufacturer's require it no a days.

Again it does boil down to gun control laws in your game. It only made sense that in an age where there are great hordes of the unwashed in slums not 10 miles from the gleaming center of the city and gangs prowl the streets at night that the citizens would want strict gun control laws in an attempt to curb violence. Of course try enforcing them in the Barrens, but that's what the Barrens are there for. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

True, but the ability of your mission target to backtrace the 'runners, which may eventually lead back to you, IS impacted by the ammo's traceability.

Even if it's purchased through fake SINs and the like, it's more info for the target to go on, info they wouldn't have at all with unmarked ammo.



-k

[Draco18s]

True, but the ability of your mission target to backtrace the 'runners, which may eventually lead back to you, IS impacted by the ammo's traceability.

Spent rounds -> runners -> "Some guy we met in a bar named Johnson" -> Runners go to jail -> cops never find Mr. Johnson.

I fail to connect the dots.

[BRodda]

I'd point out that it is in the megacorp interest to maintain a significant supply of non-tracable ammo.

They WANT their shadowrunners to succeed in their missions, after all. Usually.

-k

It is in their best self interest to make sure that THEIR shadow teams have a significant supply of non-traceable ammo.

They sure as hell want to trace the guys that just made off with 2 years of marketing data and shot Bob in accounting in the head.

[Yerameyahu]

Nevermind etched, everything in SR4 is *made* of nano-RFID tags. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) The biggest trick (or ignore-it problem) is dealing with a world with ubiquitous surveillance, microscopic sensors, and nano-wireless-tagged everything.

Just make big purchases with your fake ID, and then change addresses. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Doc Chase]

Spent rounds -> runners -> "Some guy we met in a bar named Johnson" -> Runners go to jail -> cops never find Mr. Johnson.

I fail to connect the dots.

The rounds would be tracked to the manufacturer to get the records, not necessarily the runners.

edit: EVERYBODY wants untraceable ammo. If it was traceable, hackles get raised every time Ares ammo casings show up in a Mitsuhama facility.

And AZT has everyone's rounds in their walls. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

It is in their best self interest to make sure that THEIR shadow teams have a significant supply of non-traceable ammo.

They sure as hell want to trace the guys that just made off with 2 years of marketing data and shot Bob in accounting in the head.

True.

I suppose in your game, it would not be unreasonable to see runners negotiating non-traceable ammo as part of payments.




-k

[BRodda]

Spent rounds -> runners -> "Some guy we met in a bar named Johnson" -> Runners go to jail -> cops never find Mr. Johnson.

I fail to connect the dots.

As far as the players are concerned the trail goes:
Spent rounds -> runners -> spend time in agony getting tortured for info before getting shot in the head

If you don't want more people to run against you you need to make examples of them. Or do runners not fear Mitsuhama's Zero Zone Policy?

[Draco18s]

As far as the players are concerned the trail goes:
Spent rounds -> runners -> spend time in agony getting tortured for info before getting shot in the head

Jail, torture, same diff. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

Spent rounds -> runners -> "Some guy we met in a bar named Johnson" -> Runners go to jail -> cops never find Mr. Johnson.

I fail to connect the dots.

Spent rounds -> Runners -> Runners in the hands of your target -> Runners mind-raped for info on who hired them -> Target has a lead to find Mr. Johnson -> Trail leads to you

Why would cops ever get involved?




-k

[BRodda]

True.

I suppose in your game, it would not be unreasonable to see runners negotiating non-traceable ammo as part of payments.

-k

The saying in my game is "Never get your ammo from your Johnson.", they just induced the ammo costs and lead times into their cost estimates. There are all sorts of nasty stuff that Johnson's can do to ammo. (One case included having the gunpowder go inert after 12 hours. When the Johnson scheduled the meet at hour 13 and tried to double cross almost none of their guns worked.)

[KarmaInferno]

The saying in my game is "Never get your ammo from your Johnson.", they just induced the ammo costs and lead times into their cost estimates. There are all sorts of nasty stuff that Johnson's can do to ammo. (One case included having the gunpowder go inert after 12 hours. When the Johnson scheduled the meet at hour 13 and tried to double cross almost none of their guns worked.)

You, sir, are a Bastard, and I salute you!



-k

[capt.pantsless]

*sigh* I guess it does break down to GM preference. I tend to run a hyper-realistic game. It is VERY hard to be a runner, but it pays better.

A few notes on bullets in my game.
1) Standard off the shelf bullets are cheap and easy to get. You just have to have the right license and pass a level 3 SIN check. However each bullet has a large number of micro-serial numbers etched into the sides of the cases and in the bullet it self. Forensic teams can match any bullet to the SIN that purchased it.

2) Black Market bullets are reloads. They either have been reloaded from expended rounds or are produced SINless. Black ops and other wetwork teams have these made for them as well as making up the bulk of business from the small time armorers in the Barrens. They cost 2-3 times as much (reloads cost less then SINless). It is also why making sure you know where you brass falls is a big deal in my games as you can get a SIN burned if someone resells your brass and it is used in a homicide.


I guess not everyone plays like this and I have to keep it in mind.

Two points:
1.) I'd love to play this style of game, with everything super-detailed and all, but I just don't have the time to keep track of it all. I love the paranoia feeling of the SR setting, but this level turns it up a bit too high for my tastes. That said, to each their own - you do what's fun for you.

2.) Shell catchers. Or just use caseless.

[BRodda]

Two points:
1.) I'd love to play this style of game, with everything super-detailed and all, but I just don't have the time to keep track of it all. I love the paranoia feeling of the SR setting, but this level turns it up a bit too high for my tastes. That said, to each their own - you do what's fun for you.

2.) Shell catchers. Or just use caseless.

1) It boils down to choosing setting over action. What people consider to be a "normal" run takes 4 sessions. 2 for the meet and legwork, one for the run and one for the after run mess. Then a few sessions of downtime. that means favors for friends or "pick-up work". Like hearing about a Yellow-jacket some runners crashed in the woods north of the city. They went to see if they could find spare parts to sell and whatever cargo they could sell.

2) They used black market rounds that were loaded while they were wearing gloves. It did put a stop to "I steal all the ammo from the guards though." Low resale value on the bullets and they didn't want to runs to be connected to each other.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

As far as the players are concerned the trail goes:
Spent rounds -> runners -> spend time in agony getting tortured for info before getting shot in the head

If you don't want more people to run against you you need to make examples of them. Or do runners not fear Mitsuhama's Zero Zone Policy?

But that makes a crappy GAME. The real order should be Spent rounds -> runners -> spend time getting mind-raped for info -> get a job for the opposing team. MAYBE with a cranial bomb.

[Neurosis]

No fight in my game has ever lasted long enough for someone to expend an entire clip of ammunition, so I could abstract the whole thing without there being a single change to the way the game runs.

It is RARE but reload definitely comes up in my games.

[capt.pantsless]

It is RARE but reload definitely comes up in my games.

Agreed - the number of rounds left in the magazine adds some nice drama for the PCs - even if it's just a simple action to replace it. After all, the old sprawl adage just wouldn't be the same without 'conserve ammo'.

[Myrgan]

I would consider it self-evident that runners don't buy bullets in their local store with their active SIN. Bullets are restricted, even regular ammo and s'n's, so unless runners are ready to throw away their fake license and SIN after every run, I'd rule that it goes without saying that runners purchase their bullets through illegal channels, i.e. from there trusted fixer. And since the fixers don't want to be connected to those bullets, they will only have untraceable bullets to sell. As far as I'm concerned, that's all included in the gear listing prices, but some GMs might want to play it out, whatever suits you best.

[Kruger]

Going from all my SR experience, most of which is SR3, I have to say that standard ammo was only ever purchased once, in huge amounts at chargen. And then we used to pick up ammo (and guns) from downed enemies.

I'm laughing and trying to picture runners dashing away from the scene of the crime clattering with extra slung weapons and pockets bulging with ammunition and spare magazines.

[sabs]

I'm laughing and trying to picture runners dashing away from the scene of the crime clattering with extra slung weapons and pockets bulging with ammunition and spare magazines.

weapons and ammo that's tagged with rfid tags

[Kruger]

(One case included having the gunpowder go inert after 12 hours.

Very clever, but given the nature of typical smokeless powders, seems like a lot of effort to produce a cartridge that will still work as intended without fouling the weapon or causing a stoppage, but still have room for some kind of time released catalyst that will sludge the propellant.

[Yerameyahu]

Maybe it's Pink Mohawk. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Nano-whatever.

It's easier with guns, of course: any security guns you pick up will be biolocked or STS or whatever (but you can Armorer that away, I guess).

[Kruger]

weapons and ammo that's tagged with rfid tags

Well, in his defense, not in SR3.