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[klinktastic]

So I'm just making a bunch of characters in preparation for a new game. Not sure what the other players are coming with, so I want a variety.

Anyway, I rarely see cyber arms in use, so I want to make use of them. I was invisioning two obvious cyber arms laid out something like this:

Right Arm:
-Customized Limb Body 4 (to 7)
-Agility 4 (to 7)
-Enhanced Capacity 4
-Armor 2
-"A Gun"

Left Arm:
-Customized Limb Body 4 (to 7)
-Strength 4 (to 7)
-Agility 3 (to 6)
-Enhanced Capacity 4
-Shock Hand
-Retractable Spur
-Armor 2
-Small Smuggling Compartment

That way I have an arm that is good at shooting and another that is good a brawling. Does this make sense? Or is it really a waste? I'd ideally like to have the option for a hidden gun or switch to a shotgun. Would it make more sense to cut strength and just have a shock hand? That way I would only train unarmed combat and not blades as well.

Anyway, the double arms plus accessories comes out to about 60k. I feel like it might be better to just get muscle toners if I go the agility route.

Thoughts, comments, and criticism appreciated. Thanks!

[Whipstitch]

Well, for one thing, make sure to take Ambidexterity if you truly intend to lead your melee attacks with your left limb as per the RAW examples, otherwise you're going to be eating an offhand penalty with one of your limbs at some point or at the very least you'll be forced to use your average attribute value rather than just your strong arm. Anyway, I like cyberlimbs, but I'm not a big fan of having many limbs each with varying attributes since it makes for some unnecessary futzing around with otherwise mundane tests when you're called upon to use more than one limb at a time. Beyond that, it's also quite possible to have arms that very nearly match and are as good or better than your current setup. For example, you could lay off on some of the hideously illegal cyberweapons and instead simply have boosted all-around stats and some cyberlimb optimizations. Frankly, I'd rather have a couple of Ultimate Champion cyberlimbs or one EVO Kali than both a Spur AND a Shock Hand. If you want an emergency taser just get some frills or wear a shock glove over your cyberhand.

Oh, and as a general rule, there is no "Agility route." If you're a gunslinger, pugilist or sword swinger, you want Agility one way or the other, peroid. Damage codes don't mean very much if you can't connect in the first place. Another guideline is that from a cost effectiveness angle, cyberlimbs are actually best for characters who fit their intended original market: The physically disabled. They're generally better at boosting up a wimpy character than they are at complimenting someone who's already nice and meaty without them. If you're boosting that Body score mostly because your character is already a big ol' strong ork or troll than you almost assuredly will get more mileage out of skipping the arms and just going with Muscle Augs, Toners or Replacements.

This post has been edited by Whipstitch: Oct 15 2010, 01:54 AM

[klinktastic]

I think I understand it a little better. My concept was basically to use the cyber arms to pump up the str or agility because his meat scores were going to be pretty low. The focus of my meat skills were going to be reaction, body, and edge. The cyber arms were to make up for any deficiencies with his 3's on everything else...physical scores at least.

How does it work if you pump Body on your limbs but your meat score is lower? Does it average out or does it just go to the lowest? It seems like cyber weapons just aren't practical. The only thing that makes some sense is maybe a shock hand and a taser that's hidden.

What's you take on armor on the limb? Important to add the armor? What are some other cool things to throw on cyber arms? How would you design a pair of arms based on what I was thinking?

[Yerameyahu]

On another issue: one major advantage of cyberlimbs is capacity for non-limb things, so don't forget to save a little space for a nanohive or a commlink or something. UWB radar or Scanner, perhaps. Orientation system (if the GM lets you, it's technically Earware?). Auto-injector(s), for sure, probably with Biomonitor.

[KarmaInferno]

How does it work if you pump Body on your limbs but your meat score is lower? Does it average out or does it just go to the lowest?

Cyberlimb attributes are averaged with the other body areas for most situations. You take the ratings of your arms, legs, & torso, add them together, and divide by 5. Use the character's normal attributes for non-cyberlimb body areas.

The GM can rule that a particular situation only involves a particular body area, and as such only uses that area's rating. Like if your arm gets slammed in a door, the damage resistance check might use the Body of that arm rather than the averaged Body value.

Cyberlimb Armor, notably, is NOT averaged - it all stacks together. Although a lot of GMs houserule this to use the average.

As before the GM can decide only the cyberarmor from a particular area matters in a specific situation.



-k

[Tanegar]

Right Arm:
-Customized Limb Body 4 (to 7)
-Agility 4 (to 7)

This bit, at least, is illegal. Cyberlimb customization only goes up to the natural attribute maximum for your metatype, and no metatype has both Body 7+ and Agility 7+. Anything above the attribute max must be purchased as an enhancement. The Body 7/Strength 7 arm is legal, but only for orks, dwarfs, and trolls.

[klinktastic]

@Tanegar - Good catch. That's interesting and something I didn't know. It will be good to keep in mind.

@KarmaInferno - Good to know. Thanks for the clarification. So for shooting, pumping agility in the arms for firearms skills is good. But I wouldn't be reaping many benefits for infiltration rolls. That's pretty sweet about the armor. So 2 armor on each arm stacks with itself, plus other armor you'd be wearing.

@Yerameyahu - Good idea to plop a few extra goodies in those arms, especially if I'm going to add some extra capacity. Any other goodies that make sense to put in there?

Is it usually worth it to customize the arms in multiple attributes to maximize capacity?

[Yerameyahu]

Don't forget that Bulk modding is going to be more obvious. Tradeoffs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Um. Olfactory Booster is surprisingly handy, and Ultrasound. Don't forget that almost all of these are also available as non-cyber external sensors, though. It's a decision. What else: Air Tank can make you immune to some toxins, but I never understood how it works if it's not near your lungs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The Gyromount is, of course, very badass, but it's also F (if that kind of thing bothers you); I guess the cyber-weapons are too.

Even with Obvious arms, you're going to tear through your capacity fast with Attributes and Armor.

[Mäx]

Cyberlimb Armor, notably, is NOT averaged - it all stacks together. Although a lot of GMs houserule this to use the average.

As before the GM can decide only the cyberarmor from a particular area matters in a specific situation.

Damm, i will never understand GM:s who house rule something barely useful into total oblivion of "not worth it ever"

[Yerameyahu]

They want their players to be slightly concerned about bullets. But let's not derail the OP's questions.

[Karoline]

Darn, you post this just a week or so after I deleted my "Crazy cyberlimb" character sheet, figuring I would never have another use for it. The premise was simple enough: Take a human with 1 bod, agi, and str, and slap on arms and legs all modded up to 8-9 in stats with 4 points of armor on each limb (Yes, I know, the armor is not CG legal, but easy to add on the two extra points of armor right out of chargen). Stats average out to 7-8, and are 9s when doing things like shooting guns or melee combat or whatever. And of course there is the 16/16 armor while naked, which stacks with all other armor.

Main disadvantage of the character was only 1 IP, but that is easily countered by drugs and grabbing synaptic boosters in the future.

Edit: You could of course do this with some other race if you wanted to mod up your stats even higher. Could throw in things like genetic optimization to increase how high you can raise stuff as well.

The premise of the character was to 1) show that cyberlimbs weren't as underpowered as so many people were claiming and 2) that the 'cyberlimb armor stacks' rule can be fairly crazy if you have more than one limb at 2 armor.

[Stahlseele]

As for the natural limits:
that's what exceptional attribute is good for.
if you don't get your attribute up to maximum, the maximum is still higher and thus you can get the limbs higher.

[Fauxknight]

Darn, you post this just a week or so after I deleted my "Crazy cyberlimb" character sheet,

I still have mine, the basics idea mechanics is to have a cyber gun in an arm with increased agility and then a pair of legs for running/jumping and melee combat. Legs can be modded more than arms so its easier to stack agility, strength, armor, and body onto them, where as the arm only needs agility and a gun and then if you have extra room to use tack on some body and strength. I wanted the character to be able to have entirely licensable equipment, so I also made the arm modular to allow for swapping out the lower arm with gun for another lower arm without one, the only real disadvantage was not being able to use any reflex enhancing ware. The end result looked like this:

[ Spoiler ]

Obvious Cyberarm, Modular
Cyberlimb Casemod
Custom Body 3
Custom Agility 3
Custom Strength 3
Increased Capacity 4
Submachine Gun, Cybergun
External Clip Port
Armor Enhancement 2
Body Enhancement 3
Agility Enhancement 1

Ovious Cyber Lower Arm, Modular
Cyberlimb Casemod
Custom Agility 1
Armor Enhancement 2
Body Enhancement 3
Agility Enhancement 3

(two of these)
Obvious Cyberleg
Cyberlimb Casemod
Custom Body 3
Custom Agility 1
Armor Enhancement 2
Body Enhancement 3
Agility Enhancement 3
Strength Enhancement 2
Hydraulic Jack 6
Grip Feet

Dermal Plating 2 Alpha
Hearing Damper Alpha
Commlink Alpha
Renraku Sensei, Commlink
Response 4
Signal 4
Novatech Navi, OS
Firewall 3
System 4
SIM Module
Datajack Alpha
Datajack Alpha

Cybereyes 2 Alpha
Flare Compensation Alpha
Low-Light Vision Alpha
Smartlink Alpha
Thermographic Vision Alpha

Muscle Toner 2
Muscle Augmentation 2
Platelet Factories

Cyberguns suck pretty hard core as is, so the character was also an armorer and the gun had a few mods on it. I specifically kept them to shop level or lower since its easy enough for the character to even start with a shop.

Cybergun
Firing Selection Change, Add FA
Sound Suppressor
Improved Rangefinder
Extreme Environment Mod, Desert

Note the commlink specs aren't top notch, but the smartgun is internal so the character can operate all equipment with no wireless turned on, the character should have additional commlinks for IDs and communication, the internal one is strictly to run gear. Datajacks and skinlinks can be used to operate addtional devices. The gun and arm are both restricted gear, so that quality needs to be taken twice. Other items to consider are a bio-monitor and an agent program equipped with some diagnostics and control software for your cyberware (i.e. "Jeeves, I need more power, redline my legs.")

The legs only come up to availability 10, so 2 more custom strength or agility can be added, both if the casemods are dropped (but then you lose style points).

The character has 8/8 built in armor (2 on each of 3 limbs plus 2 dermal plating), I think with just basic armor like an armored vest and FFBA2 on it comes out to 18/13. Average body and hit boxes are a bit more difficult to figure out since you have to take your base attribute then average it in with the cyberlimbs, then add 3 more body boxes just for having three cyberlimbs. With 3 base body the character should have an average body of 6 (3+3+3+9+9+9=36, 36/6=6) for damage resistance tests (and maybe encumbrance depending on your GM) and the character should have 14 hit boxes (8+6/2+3=14).

[klinktastic]

@Fauxknight - That's pretty interesting. I guess you could tack on an autoinjector to give yourself combat drugs to obtain additional initiative passes.

[Fauxknight]

@Fauxknight - That's pretty interesting. I guess you could tack on an autoinjector to give yourself combat drugs to obtain additional initiative passes.

Well I came to the idea when trying to make a human sam/merc (see the thread on how humans are inferior). So part of the premise was to use maxxed out cyberlimbs that were just as good as any of the metas could take because once you run out of capacity and top out the availability the limbs end up the same. Since the character was a human, you save build points from not spending on race and then not needing very high physical attributes even as a sam, that leaves points to dump in edge which allows you to buy extra initiative passes.

Autoinjectors were certainly on my list though, several of them with different compounds. I was even considering doses of nanites in them. Autoinjectors seemed like a decent solution to prevent degradation of extremely situational nanite types, while not wasting rating on your nanohive if you have one.

[Summerstorm]

There is already an archetype with low physical attributes and a lot of cyber: Cyborgs...

I mean... you could just go ALL the way and just lose a few grams of brain too... and that whole squishy stuff in your torso. *g*

[Fauxknight]

There is already an archetype with low physical attributes and a lot of cyber: Cyborgs...

I mean... you could just go ALL the way and just lose a few grams of brain too... and that whole squishy stuff in your torso. *g*

The biggest problem I have with cyborgs is that all the human model drones are above 20 availability, meaning even if you had the cash you can't get one even with the restricted gear quality. The cyborgs as pcs optional rules don't even mention about being able to break that restriction.

[klinktastic]

That, and it wouldn't really all the fun playing a cyborg. More fun to play a guy who has a self confidence complex and cybers himself up to feel tough.

[Summerstorm]

Yeah... my post was half in jest. Of course there is a big difference between cyborg and cybered human. I don't think many people "Choose" to become a cyborg anyway...

Just as most people (if they take the bulk option) wont have ALL or even most of their body replaced. Once you really replaced too much psychological breakdown is pretty much assured. The normal cyberlimbs, with synthetic skin and good feedback are much more common for a reason. But a few psychos: Bodymodders, fetishists and insane troll-berserkers would run around with hulking machinery as their bodies though.

Ah yes... reminds me of one character we had back in our SR3 group some years back:

Black cyberlimbs: Arms with claws, Kid Stealth (raptor) legs with cyberskates, balance tail, cyberskull with glowing red eyes and fangs. Saving up to finaly get a cybertorso (and replace something for better grade... to not DIE from essenceloss): Hunting hobos in the tunnels by skating with like 80 km/h and screaming like a madman.

Or the MAGE with 2 essence: Cyberskull and torso, and arms... all armored. Overcast a magic armor, wore a good one too, had spellpool to resist. Was pretty much the tank against everything.

Ah well, back on topic... what was i going to write? Hm... AH YES.

REDLINING. The only thing which makes cyberlimbs as good as they should be. I am in favour of allowing redlining BEYOND hardcap. (So it is still useful if you already have such high attributes with them) Nice rule.

[KarmaInferno]

The biggest problem I have with cyborgs is that all the human model drones are above 20 availability, meaning even if you had the cash you can't get one even with the restricted gear quality. The cyborgs as pcs optional rules don't even mention about being able to break that restriction.

Yeah, I have a character that is saving up to buy one in-game specifically cos she can't buy one at chargen.

It's going to be a while.



-k

[sabs]

I thought about a character who was a top of the line thief/gymnast. Who has Lupus, and is under going slow, painful complete organ shutdown. So, he's saving up for a fully cyborg body.

[Summerstorm]

Hm, i see... not just a genetic treatment?
Also, why Lupus? We all know it is NEVER LUPUS *g*

But yeah, severe sickness is a good excuse to become a killercyborg.

[sabs]

Because Lupus is untreatable? And despite what House says.. it is on occasion Lupus.

[Mäx]

REDLINING. The only thing which makes cyberlimbs as good as they should be. I am in favour of allowing redlining BEYOND hardcap. (So it is still useful if you already have such high attributes with them) Nice rule.

Redlining allready allows you to go over your augmented maximums, the limit is douple the current rate.
But the damage is causes is a little too serious for the benefits, possibly even more so then adrenaline pump.

[Fauxknight]

Redlining allready allows you to go over your augmented maximums, the limit is douple the current rate.
But the damage is causes is a little too serious for the benefits, possibly even more so then adrenaline pump.

The damage can be excessive, but unlike the adrenaline pump its fully controllable and resistable. So if you have decent body and a trauma damper you can kick it up a notch or two for lengthy periods of time and possibly not take any damage.