UCAS Military Standard Issue? Options

[Nerdynick]

Pretty much what it sounds like, what is the standard issue for UCAS Military? (If you want to narrow that, Army infantry). I'm talking about both equipment and implants.

Thanks

[Angelone]

Soldiers are mentioned in various books (Cybertech, Brainscan, and a few others iirc), you can find the answers there and convert over.
I'd however go with a Colt M23, Colt M22A3, or Ingram White Knight for weapons depending of their function in the squad.
For armor, a vest with plates, although I could see an argument for an armor jacket or camo armor.
Misc. equipment I'd go with goggles with as much goodies as you can fit in them, commlinks (of course), a tacnet, a survival kit, the smart carrying system from arsenal.
This is a basic load out more can be issued for specific missions.

As for cyber, I think it really depends on how long they've been in, if they are lifers, SF, stuff like that. Handy stuff would be a radar sensor it's fairly cheap and makes it easier to detect nearby enemies, I like wired reflexes 1 at least (but that can be argued against in favor of drugs depending on which nation the soldier is from), and stuff like bonelacing or dermal plating to help with survivability. I can definately see mages getting cybereyes for spell casting goodness.

[Jesher]

Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't MilSpec armor... y'know... be used by the military? Or am I missing something?

And, this is all conjecture (unfortunately, as I don't know good SR4 books relating to UCAS military), but I would think cyber would be encouraged but not provided. At least not for GIs.

[Summerstorm]

Good question. Was there anything official. Have to look through my Johnsons Black Book.

Hm... just one fitting NPC there. Standart attributes, no special cyberware (except datajack)

So i guess, fo an enlisted man:
Equipment: Camouflage Suit, Ares Alpha (or similar)
Min Attributes: All physical at 3, all mental at 2
Min skill: Automatics 2, Perception at 2
No additional cyberware
Much variation

For higher rankings/ carrer soldiers:
Equipment: Camouflage Suit, Ares Alpha (or similar)
Camouflage Suit, Ares Alpha (or similar)
Min Attributes: All physical at 3, all mental at 2, except cha and logic 3
Min skill: Automatics 2, Perception at 2, Leadership 2
Reflex Booster I, Cybereyes, Smartgun
Much variation

Specialists:
Like Corp-specops (There are a lot of examples)
Mostly: Milspec Armor, alpha grade booster or MBW, Skills at 4+, fully modded weaponry and special ammunition (APDS)

EDIT: Ah yes, standar: Medikit, all few soldiers an LAW or something (when in the field), comlink (all 4), Goggles, all 4 or so a radar unit, maybe Tacnet (1) so they won't shoot each other.
Specialists all that and higher/better.
And yeah, i can see a drone carrying some stuff. Or maybe even having a mortar mounted too.

[CanRay]

Well, I'd be issuing them with a minimum of Armoured Jackets for body armour. And Colt M23 Assault Rifles as a standard combat rifle, with one soldier in a fire unit having a Colt M22A3, and another soldier having an Ares MP-LMP with another soldier having extra equipment for it.

But, well, that's just me.

[Angelone]

Milspec is more for Special Forces. It's way too expensive and hard to readjust to give it to every grunt you have.

[Stingray]

Camouflage Suit (8/6) w/o Body Minimum of 4,gives a person wearing it penalties..so unless
optional Armor rules are in use, other armor's are better choice..
(maybe Industrious Line Coverall or Victory (Ares) Camouflage jumpsuit (5/3) and helmet (1/2)
and some parts of PPP-system if Body-attribute is high enough.)

[Critias]

Camouflage Suit (8/6) w/o Body Minimum of 4,gives a person wearing it penalties..

Right, so maybe part of the reason they work you so hard in Basic, and then more in AIT (especially for front line combat types) is to get all the high speed, low drag, operators up to a Body of 4 (so they can hustle in their gear without penalties).

[Summerstorm]

Also... why not take the penalty? Never understood why you HAVE to wear an armor which isn't slowing you down, it is just -1 to everything you do. But yeah, i can see armored vests or other armors.

[Smokeskin]

Camouflage Suit (8/6) w/o Body Minimum of 4,gives a person wearing it penalties..so unless
optional Armor rules are in use, other armor's are better choice..

Most combat troops would have body 4 or higher. Body 3 is typical, soldiers are in better shape than that.

Also today, most troops are carrying so much armor their efficiency and mobility is reduced.

[KarmaInferno]

I keep thinking we'll start seeing troops riding into battle on Segways soon.

Oh, wait..



-k

[TheScrivener]

Ah, but the segways will have minds of their own

[The Grue Master]

There was another thread about this topic that turned into an argument about whether the gummint would invest 50k worth of armor/arms on your average grunt. I tend to use a sliding scale of coolness for my various baddies (that my runners encounter all over the world).

Badly-Equipped Grunts:
No Armor or [3/0] Armor
SMG or Assault Rifle w/ No Mods

Generic Grunts:
[6/4] Camo + Helmet [1/2]
SMG or Assault Rifle w/ Minor Mods (many stock weapons have laser sights, gas-vent 2s, etc)

Well-Equipped Grunts:
[8/6] Camo Armor + Full Helmet [2/2] w/ Commlink, Vision/Audio Mods, Biomonitor (As these are issued by a large army use the 'customized' encumberance rules)
SMG or Assault Rifle w/ Good Mods (Smartlink + GasVent/Supressor w/ Specialized Ammo)

Specially-Equipped Grunts:
These are a real challenge to most shadowrunners and I tend to design them as a combat oriented team (hacker/gunbunnies/hwep guy and maybe a mage). Each of them is either sporting previously mentioned armor or something out of the books (security armor from SR4A but customized) or Military Armor (Light and Medium). Here I'd just give the baddies whatever your guys can barely handle. If your runners are emptying rounds into these guys and the bullets just bounce off, make sure this is what you want.

Once my team was recruited by the army as cover for an op and I tried to come up with what sort of gear they might be given access to as standard infantry: couple sets of fatigues, previously mentioned [8/6] combat armor and a few special firearms (they were in the desert so I just modified some guns to include Smartlinks and Extreme Environment Mod) and gave them military commlinks (TacNet 2, Firewall + Encryption 5). You can also expect units to be issued specialized equipment for missions in specific environments (desert, artic, etc) that will include obvious necessities. Even with the accessories, this stuff still wouldn't run you anywhere near the budget of most Military Armor (which requires mobility enhancements and such).

[Yerameyahu]

I dunno if 'no armor' is possible in world where teens go down the street in armor clothing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[AppliedCheese]

Well, under the assumption that the UCAS has continued to pursue a well trained, comparatively small (for the money and population), networked, and professional force, I would imagine their particular soldiers are going to be somewhat better equipped than the world-standard.

I would see it as follows:

SR/Modern Day

Full Body Amor (camo'd) w/ Helmet and Chem Seal: 9,000 / IOTV with Helmet ~$3000
/ Gas Mask and JLIST ~$1000
Lowlight, Thermal, Smartlink, Magnification, Flare Comp, Imagelink, motion sensor in Helmet 925 / One set NODs ~$2500

4/4 Commlink 5000 / (ICOMs, MBITRs, ASIPs for platoon) ~ $2250 per soldier
Sys 4, Firewall 6 OS
Tac Net 4
Lev 3 Agent/IC
Common Use 4
Track, Attack, Armor 3
At Market 25,200 Given proprietary software and mass user licenses, would assume much closer 10,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per. / ANCDs or Single Key Loaders for above radios, per platoon: ~$1100 per soldier.

SmartPack System with pack,vest, and pouches 1000 / framepack, assault pack, load bearing vest and pouches, camelbak: ~$575 . Note that except for the vest this would usually not be worn in a fight.

Medkit 2, Biomonitor, trauma Patch : 1000 /IFAK, CLS Bags, WALK kits in a platoon ~$450 per soldier.

leaving aside sleeping bags and other day to day non shooty bits:

COLT M23A4 (Federal Variant-includes gas vent 2 and smartgun instead of scope and gas 1) 1900 . / m4 Carbine with CCO/ACOG and IR illuminator ~$2400 (including the massive gov discount)

For a grand total of:

Shadowrun infantryman: 28,825 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
US Infantryman, circa 2010 : $ 13,275

So, doubling the price of a soldier in 62 years doesn't seem bad at all, especially as an average job bring in roughly 60,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per year (day job quality), whereas the Median US worker earns approximately $45,000. So, in nuyen terms, today's infatntryman at his most basic costs maybe 18000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) (Its a rough estimation, but inflation numbers just don't make sense given the price scheme, and prices are haywire cause of the joys of tech). It doesn't seem exceptional at all that a UCAS grunt would carry 29k on him, especially as all the items listed are external and can be handed off to the next guy.

As far as internals go...you could argue either way.

Consider that training a US soldier to the very, very, basic version of his trade costs (at its most simplistic) roughly $70,000. Or, 93,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . With advent of cheap comprehensive simulation, knowsofts, VR and AR instruction, and generally speaking needing less humans and field resources, the money spent on training will probably decrease, but that budget for making soldiers more lethal will be there.

Also consider that plopping a 6k skillwire in somebody to create cheap labor is an accepted practice. From there, is plopping 16k in muscle augs and wire reflexes a huge leap? Even with a 5k opportunity costs for recovery time?

[The Grue Master]

I dunno if 'no armor' is possible in world where teens go down the street in armor clothing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

*cough*poverty*cough*

[Angelone]

@ AppliedCheese, unfortunately 1 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) is roughly $4. Other than that your list looks pretty good.

[WhiskeyMac]

You could probably get a nice cyber-suite as a re-up bonus. I'd say based on the amount of time the soldier originally signed up is if the soldier gets cyberware/bioware implanted.

I'm pretty sure the UCAS would implant sleep regulators in every single soldier, regardless of MOS. The benefits far outweigh the cost.

[AppliedCheese]

I could see that. Kind of like they do pilot and doctors and lawyers and such nowadays.

You can join, be a pilot, and we'll pay for it all, but you'll need to serve at least 8 years becomes:

"hey, looks here like your ASVAB ver 2065 shows you could be an infantryman kid! Or a supply clerk! Now, if you go the infantry route, we'll put the following systems in you, and you get to keep them! think of the value you'll have in the job market! think how cool you'll be for the ladies! Alright, now there this..little clause over here...right..the one next to six year minimum...and check the box ARO there for the disclaimer...Alright, your in. Aren't you happy you didn't sign on to be some three year finance guy? He wouldn't get any of this awesome stuff."

Ok...so 1 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) equals 4x 2072 US dollars, with a weak government and deflated values, or is roughly equivalent to 4x 2010 US dollars? Because the prices make no sense what so ever for the latter. You can't have a super consumerist society where no one is capable of buying anything.

[Angelone]

4x 2072 Dollars. It's still a bad conversion rate.

[AppliedCheese]

Ah. Allow me to clarify. All prices listed are in pre-inflation 2010 dollars. Even at current trends (3% inflation average), without global wracking disasters, one 2010 dollar translate to 6.25 2072 dollars. Or, approximately 1.56 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

Bringing our 2010 US infantryman to the price of 20,700 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , and the average costs to train at 109,200 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) .

So, that projected list is about 8k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ($5100 circa 2010) more expensive than current day.

[Kliko]

Ok, so whats our budget/grunt?

And per frontline shock trooper?

[AppliedCheese]

Well, the, the current gear only budget is $13,275 US (2010). Translates to 20,700 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

That's including ONLY platoon and below assets, and assuming a leg platoon with. If you start factoring in company, battalion, and brigade assets (brigade being the minimum that can reasonably deploy and sustain itself for more than "until the basic load runs out") that price goes much, much higher. Factoring in training, sustainment and pay adds more to that. Reasonably speaking, right now getting a year of combat time out of a soldier, is about $250k. Or 390k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) Thats assuming he stays in for the next cycle of reset, retrain, redeploy. One shot soldiers go about $400k, or 625k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) since the training is lost. Still doesn't include the price of recruitment. Side note: there are several studies that will try to claim that one soldier is $1M US per year. They are inherently flawed in that they average things like the price of tanks, helicopters, and artillery pieces into a per soldier cost. The numbers I'm giving are for the soldier and his immediate sustainment only.

Now, we don't really have "frontline shock troopers" unless you count the marines (who are actually cheaper...because they tend to use shittier gear due to a political fight to have their budget be special), or the rangers who on average have gear costs of $4000 to $6000 (read 6-9k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ) more per soldier, and use exponentially more resources in training and sustainment. You don't even want to touch the rest of the SOF community, because their gear prices range to "whatever is shiny and new and I want."

For the UCAS, I would think a reasonable per soldier gear figure would be 30k external, with up to 20k internal. Especially since the magic of the commlink, drones, and tacnet will cut a lot of gristle off the meat of the organization.

For shock troops, 60-70k external and 40-50k internal would be very reasonable.

[Ian Argent]

I've kicked this around a couple times. I don't have a good enough handle on SR4 to come up with specific gear right now; but I'll throw out some of the things I was thinking of.

Internal vs external gear: Assuming the UCAS/CAS continue the tradition of the US (no reason they shouldn't) most sensors and comm gear (including commlinks) will be internal, not external. Internal gear cannot be lost or sold on the black market, dropped in retreat, etc. Maintenance is a wash, with increased time in a cyberclinic being offset by cyberware being harder to break (and IMHO more soldierproof), and historically, the US has cared less about maintenance requirements vs effectiveness, anyway. Under SR3, there was the issue of natural being better than cyber, but ISTR in SR4 they are equal in performance.

Tactical computers and all of that stuff will be in the officers and NCOs - the US Mil is already working on the capability at the infantry level and esssentially already has it in the mechanised branches, Air Force, and Navy.

Currently, the army issues the heaviest body armor they think they can get the soldiers to wear. This is unlikely to change, as protection for the warfighter is a serious concern given training times and costs. Mobility is compromised to a certain extent.

Primary weapon is likely to be a select-fire carbine of some sort, with a full-up AR for the squad Designated Marksman. Burst only, no FA for either. SMG ranges and almost AR damage level for the carbine (which I will freely admit doesn't exist in the books, or for that matter, Rules as Written). It's possible that everyone gets an underbarrel GL as well, there have been some moves in that direction that haven't gotten very far. Support weapons (LMG and anti-armor) in similar proportions as today (1 LMG per squad, IIRC). The guns themselves are Smart and locked to milspec smartlinks (the encryption keys are supposed to be wiped on demob, but readily available on the black market).

Cyber/bio enhancements NOT likely to be found in line grunts: stat enhancers, reflex enhancers, trauma dampers/pain editors or similar, implanted armor, or anything that causes damage on a glitch. SpecWar types might get some of these, though stat enhancers are likely still out. Skillwires are probably out as well. Cyberlimbs for casualties, but not as a matter of course.

When compared to today's military, the UCAS/CAS military will be much smaller because of smaller commitments, but even higher capability per warfighter (smaller absolute budgets, but larger per capita due to smaller enlistment).

Reserve units will be at the same level as the regulars (as noted above, you want the gear, you sign a long commitment, possibly up to 10 years between active and ready reserve), but the National Guard equivalents will be much less capable, as they likely will NOT have the expensive cyber/bio packages, and there just won't be hand-me-down equipment from the regulars for comms and sensors. National Guard as we know it today may disappear, with the states having their own State Guards with police/paramilitary-grade gear. This seems to be what the Metroplex Guard of Seattle is. (Also, makes a handy counterweight to the LawCorps' SWAT/HTR capability, should it be needed...)

[Kliko]

Ok, so lets go wild and say:

- Grunt: (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 20k total
- Shock trooper: (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 80k total
- Spec ops: (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 160k total

Now I'm a sr3 bloke, but I'll see what I can cook-up.