Concealment power in combat, Do the penalties apply to people trying to hit you? Options

[Seidaku]

A spirit's concealment power subtracts the force of the spirit from the dice pool of any perception test being made to detect the the target of the power. What does this mean in combat? Do your foes need to make a perception test (with the penalties from the concealment power) to see you, after which they can attack you without penalty? Is the penalty applied to their dice pool when they attack you, much like a vision penalty/cover? Are the RAW mum on the subject, making it a GM judgement call? Any page numbers I could look to for a reference?

Thanks!

[Neraph]

Visibility penalties apply as a Ranged Combat penalty as well. As far as I know it doesn't help against melee, but it should. That's on the list titled Ranged Combat Modifiers Table on page 140, SR4. I don't have 4A, so I don't know where it is in that book.

EDIT: On the Melee Modifiers Table, page 148, SR4, it also lists Visibility Penalties. The world is right again.

EDIT EDIT: Well, Concealment doesn't state that it is a visibility penalty per se, but it is a penalty to Perception Tests. It should work, but it doesn't explicitly says so.

[Makki]

Do your foes need to make a perception test (with the penalties from the concealment power) to see you, after which they can attack you without penalty?

That's how we did it, although we're not totally happy with it.
GM: They start shooting at you.
Me: WAIT! I'm concealed, can they see me?
Gm rolls Guard's Perception dice - Force and gets one hit.
GM: Yes. Hrhrhr

Visibility modifiers are capped at -6 (so no use for a force 7 concealment), cause that's being blind or shooting with your eyes closed. Although it's pretty heavy.

For a houserule, I'd go with visibilty modifier of Force/2

by RAW, it's similar to the Ruthenium Coating like Chameleon Suit, and they don't affect combat aswell.

[Neraph]

Visibility modifiers are capped at -6 (so no use for a force 7 concealment), cause that's being blind or shooting with your eyes closed. Although it's pretty heavy.

I understand that no visibility modifier is higher than a 6 on the chart, but that doesn't mean they can't go higher, especially with MAGIC!

[Makki]

for shooting an invisible person you get -6. how can one be more invisible?
and that's no rules discussion, because there's no concealment-affecting-combat-modifiers-rule. There's only logic and GM call

[sabs]

Btw, -6 for shooting an invisible person seems like not enough of a modifier.

Not when I can have
Agi: 9
Gun: 6
Spec: +2
smartgun: +2

for 13 dice shooting at someone whose invisible.

[Semerkhet]

If the person under concealment has not taken any sort of obvious action then I don't let the PC or NPC spend the Simple Action to remove the "Observer Distracted" penalty to the Perception Test. If the magician in the group is behind cover, making an Infiltration Test, covered by Force 6 Concealment and casting spells, that pretty much eats the Perception Dice Pool of any mook. Now once the street sam starts firing an automatic weapon the Concealment penalty is negated and they are seen. I have not applied Concealment as a Visibility modifier to ranged combat after the subject is noticed.

[Makki]

Btw, -6 for shooting an invisible person seems like not enough of a modifier.

Not when I can have
Agi: 9
Gun: 6
Spec: +2
smartgun: +2

for 13 dice shooting at someone whose invisible.

but you shoot with Int instead of Agi at blind targets. and ask your GM, if he allows smart gun bonus (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[WyldKnight]

Any more and you just have teams of ghosts shooting at each other yelling

"Did I hit you?"

"No"

"ok"

Rinse and repeat

[Seidaku]

for shooting an invisible person you get -6. how can one be more invisible?
and that's no rules discussion, because there's no concealment-affecting-combat-modifiers-rule. There's only logic and GM call

Well, the -6 is for complete invisibility- it doesn't take into account other senses, such as sound. If an invisibile person is shooting at you, you can get a good idea of their location by sound alone, and shoot at them with the -6 since you can't see them. The concealment power applies to *all* perception tests- sight, sound, smell, etc- so it makes sense that it could be higher than the usual -6.

Btw, -6 for shooting an invisible person seems like not enough of a modifier.

Not when I can have
Agi: 9
Gun: 6
Spec: +2
smartgun: +2

for 13 dice shooting at someone whose invisible.

As a note, the -6 is only when you're shooting at someone you can't see, but have a good idea of their location. If you don't have that good idea, you can't attack them at all. Ie, if someone is sneaking around invisible, and you fail your perception check to notice them, just because your buddy says "Hey, there's an invisible person in the room!" doesn't mean you can attack them with a -6 penalty; you still don't have any idea where they are. If your buddy instead says, "Hey, there's an invisible person in the corner next to the window!", it's a whole 'nother story.

[Dakka Dakka]

Btw, -6 for shooting an invisible person seems like not enough of a modifier.

Not when I can have
Agi: 9
Gun: 6
Spec: +2
smartgun: +2

for 13 dice shooting at someone whose invisible.

With shooting blind you can no longer use AGI but you have to use INT. the dicepool willl probably be a lot smaller.

I'm not of the opinion that negative modifiers are capped at -6. It is easier to shoot an invisible person, if you at least can see the point where the gun will be shooting instead of not even seeing where the gun is pointed (firing in total darkness at a concealed target) This should IMHO be -12.

Back to the original question, the Power only deducts from Perception (with a capital P) tests, and the text further explains that this includes Astral Perception. So all other tests are unaffected.

[Neraph]

for shooting an invisible person you get -6. how can one be more invisible?
and that's no rules discussion, because there's no concealment-affecting-combat-modifiers-rule. There's only logic and GM call

Um, I think you're talking about Firing Blind, not firing at an invisible person. If someone's invisible then you use the Firing Blind rules, but it's not quite the same.

[Semerkhet]

Any more and you just have teams of ghosts shooting at each other yelling

"Did I hit you?"

"No"

"ok"

Rinse and repeat

I'm not satisfied with how unexplained and yet totally effective Concealment is. I mean, I want to picture the power as something akin to Obfuscate in Vampire, i.e. the observers simply fail to notice the subject under concealment. However, that can't be how it works in Shadowrun because Concealment is understood to work on non-sentient technological observers like drone sensors and yet requires no test against Object Resistance. It is powerful enough that it is the rare session that my group isn't making use of it.

[Yerameyahu]

Does the Ruthenium -4 apply to all attack tests? It's a similar situation. Perception tests, not Visibility.

[Dakka Dakka]

It is not an invisibility, or "Ignore me" power. It is simply very good camouflage. A penalty of -6 or more is hefty but with a bit of looking around you can easily get a positive modifier of +6 or more. Concealment 6 or more does not mean someone is invisible, he is just harder to detect, and if he does something that is so obvious that the GM does not call for a Perception test (i.e. standing before the guard and waving his arms), the power won't help at all.

The only thing weird about the Power is due to the change in SR4A. It works on the Astral but can't be used by purely astral creatures. So the summoned spirit must materialize and become dual-natured to conceal his summoner on the astral journey. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[sabs]

This is why you use wide bursts and suppressive fire when trying to hit people who are invisbile.

[Yerameyahu]

… Why are you shooting blind people, sabs?

[Semerkhet]

It is not an invisibility, or "Ignore me" power. It is simply very good camouflage. A penalty of -6 or more is hefty but with a bit of looking around you can easily get a positive modifier of +6 or more. Concealment 6 or more does not mean someone is invisible, he is just harder to detect, and if he does something that is so obvious that the GM does not call for a Perception test (i.e. standing before the guard and waving his arms), the power won't help at all.

The only thing weird about the Power is due to the change in SR4A. It works on the Astral but can't be used by purely astral creatures. So the summoned spirit must materialize and become dual-natured to conceal his summoner on the astral journey. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

Agreed. Concealment is extremely effective when used in conjunction with Infiltration before the shooting starts. However, if a character under Concealment can stay behind cover and perform silent or invisible combat actions, it's still going to be pretty hard for antagonists to make that Perception Test.

Example #1
Hacker with Laser Pistol hiding behind cover and under Force 8 Concealment. The laser pistol is not in the visible spectrum, therefore no visible beam. No flash, no sound, no nothing; just burns appearing on targets. In this case the character is not bringing enough attention to himself to offset the penalties from the Concealment.

Example #2
Magician under Force 8 Concealment and hiding behind good cover. He peeks out and casts a Force 6 Manabolt. By my house rule, the Noticing Spellcasting Perception Test threshold is 8-Force instead of 6-Force. So the threshold is 2 and the observer is still subject to the -8 dice from Concealment, -2 for "Observer Distracted" and possibly -2 for "Object not in immediate vicinity."

Note that it isn't impossible for the characters in both examples to be noticed. It's just not terribly likely. A Force 8 spirit would have 16 dice for Perception Tests and would have pretty even chances of noticing the character under Concealment. OTOH, mundane security forces with Int 4 and Perception 4 don't stand a chance. Opposing Prime Runners with some vision enhancement and higher stats might have a Perception dice pool of 12, which means they'd still probably have to spend Edge to spot the Concealed character.

The above examples are standard combat procedure in my group. It's pretty damned effective and I don't think I'm making it easy on them. There is only so much I can do before I pull the GM dick move of having antagonists with no prior knowledge of the team's MO anticipate their tactics.

[sabs]

… Why are you shooting blind people, sabs?

because they're clearly inferior.

I meant invisible of course (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) sigh

I will go edit.

[Neraph]

Does the Ruthenium -4 apply to all attack tests? It's a similar situation. Perception tests, not Visibility.

At the tables I frequent it does. As per RAW it's shaky and by shaky I mean "No."

[Irion]

First of all: No it is not a a ranged modifier.

Second: It is one of this powers, from which you get the idea, that spirits (and the techno equivalent) where thought be be between 3 and 6.
Because if you go up to 8 it is obvious broken.

[WyldKnight]

Wait does Concealment work against things like radar, ultrasound, etc? I thought it was merely a visual camouflage?

[Yerameyahu]

Ruthenium used to (SR3) specifically affect attack tests, which was one reason it was so overpowered. In SR4, we've never used it that way, though. It seems like Perception and attacking are totally separate. Hmm.

As written, WyldKnight, Concealment works on everything. It'd have to, because Astral isn't a 'physical sense'.

[Neraph]

First of all: No it is not a a ranged modifier.

Second: It is one of this powers, from which you get the idea, that spirits (and the techno equivalent) where thought be be between 3 and 6.
Because if you go up to 8 it is obvious broken.

First: I said as much, and I stated my reason why it should possibly be houseruled to work that way. Also, by me stating how we run it at my table means that we are using a house rule.

Second: ... What? I can barely understand that. Are you saying that Concealment is only "not broken" between Forces 3 and 6?

As an aside, whenever I read your posts I hear a deep-voiced, thickly accented Russian.

[Draco18s]

for shooting an invisible person you get -6. how can one be more invisible?

Imagine trying to shoot someone who is somewhere between one and four feet to the left of where you see/hear them to be.

It's like trying to play a FPS with a full second of lag (and there's no server side lag compensation like the Source engine has).