A spirit's concealment power subtracts the force of the spirit from the dice pool of any perception test being made to detect the the target of the power. What does this mean in combat? Do your foes need to make a perception test (with the penalties from the concealment power) to see you, after which they can attack you without penalty? Is the penalty applied to their dice pool when they attack you, much like a vision penalty/cover? Are the RAW mum on the subject, making it a GM judgement call? Any page numbers I could look to for a reference?

Thanks!

Visibility penalties apply as a Ranged Combat penalty as well. As far as I know it doesn't help against melee, but it should. That's on the list titled Ranged Combat Modifiers Table on page 140, SR4. I don't have 4A, so I don't know where it is in that book.

EDIT: On the Melee Modifiers Table, page 148, SR4, it also lists Visibility Penalties. The world is right again.

EDIT EDIT: Well, Concealment doesn't state that it is a visibility penalty per se, but it is a penalty to Perception Tests. It should work, but it doesn't explicitly says so.

That's how we did it, although we're not totally happy with it.
GM: They start shooting at you.
Me: WAIT! I'm concealed, can they see me?
Gm rolls Guard's Perception dice - Force and gets one hit.
GM: Yes. Hrhrhr

Visibility modifiers are capped at -6 (so no use for a force 7 concealment), cause that's being blind or shooting with your eyes closed. Although it's pretty heavy.

For a houserule, I'd go with visibilty modifier of Force/2

by RAW, it's similar to the Ruthenium Coating like Chameleon Suit, and they don't affect combat aswell.

I understand that no visibility modifier is higher than a 6 on the chart, but that doesn't mean they can't go higher, especially with MAGIC!

for shooting an invisible person you get -6. how can one be more invisible?
and that's no rules discussion, because there's no concealment-affecting-combat-modifiers-rule. There's only logic and GM call

Btw, -6 for shooting an invisible person seems like not enough of a modifier.

Not when I can have
Agi: 9
Gun: 6
Spec: +2
smartgun: +2

for 13 dice shooting at someone whose invisible.

If the person under concealment has not taken any sort of obvious action then I don't let the PC or NPC spend the Simple Action to remove the "Observer Distracted" penalty to the Perception Test. If the magician in the group is behind cover, making an Infiltration Test, covered by Force 6 Concealment and casting spells, that pretty much eats the Perception Dice Pool of any mook. Now once the street sam starts firing an automatic weapon the Concealment penalty is negated and they are seen. I have not applied Concealment as a Visibility modifier to ranged combat after the subject is noticed.

but you shoot with Int instead of Agi at blind targets. and ask your GM, if he allows smart gun bonus

Any more and you just have teams of ghosts shooting at each other yelling

"Did I hit you?"

"No"

"ok"

Rinse and repeat

Well, the -6 is for complete invisibility- it doesn't take into account other senses, such as sound. If an invisibile person is shooting at you, you can get a good idea of their location by sound alone, and shoot at them with the -6 since you can't see them. The concealment power applies to *all* perception tests- sight, sound, smell, etc- so it makes sense that it could be higher than the usual -6.




As a note, the -6 is only when you're shooting at someone you can't see, but have a good idea of their location. If you don't have that good idea, you can't attack them at all. Ie, if someone is sneaking around invisible, and you fail your perception check to notice them, just because your buddy says "Hey, there's an invisible person in the room!" doesn't mean you can attack them with a -6 penalty; you still don't have any idea where they are. If your buddy instead says, "Hey, there's an invisible person in the corner next to the window!", it's a whole 'nother story.

With shooting blind you can no longer use AGI but you have to use INT. the dicepool willl probably be a lot smaller.

I'm not of the opinion that negative modifiers are capped at -6. It is easier to shoot an invisible person, if you at least can see the point where the gun will be shooting instead of not even seeing where the gun is pointed (firing in total darkness at a concealed target) This should IMHO be -12.

Back to the original question, the Power only deducts from Perception (with a capital P) tests, and the text further explains that this includes Astral Perception. So all other tests are unaffected.

Um, I think you're talking about Firing Blind, not firing at an invisible person. If someone's invisible then you use the Firing Blind rules, but it's not quite the same.

I'm not satisfied with how unexplained and yet totally effective Concealment is. I mean, I want to picture the power as something akin to Obfuscate in Vampire, i.e. the observers simply fail to notice the subject under concealment. However, that can't be how it works in Shadowrun because Concealment is understood to work on non-sentient technological observers like drone sensors and yet requires no test against Object Resistance. It is powerful enough that it is the rare session that my group isn't making use of it.

Does the Ruthenium -4 apply to all attack tests? It's a similar situation. Perception tests, not Visibility.

It is not an invisibility, or "Ignore me" power. It is simply very good camouflage. A penalty of -6 or more is hefty but with a bit of looking around you can easily get a positive modifier of +6 or more. Concealment 6 or more does not mean someone is invisible, he is just harder to detect, and if he does something that is so obvious that the GM does not call for a Perception test (i.e. standing before the guard and waving his arms), the power won't help at all.

The only thing weird about the Power is due to the change in SR4A. It works on the Astral but can't be used by purely astral creatures. So the summoned spirit must materialize and become dual-natured to conceal his summoner on the astral journey.

This is why you use wide bursts and suppressive fire when trying to hit people who are invisbile.

… Why are you shooting blind people, sabs?

Agreed. Concealment is extremely effective when used in conjunction with Infiltration before the shooting starts. However, if a character under Concealment can stay behind cover and perform silent or invisible combat actions, it's still going to be pretty hard for antagonists to make that Perception Test.

Example #1
Hacker with Laser Pistol hiding behind cover and under Force 8 Concealment. The laser pistol is not in the visible spectrum, therefore no visible beam. No flash, no sound, no nothing; just burns appearing on targets. In this case the character is not bringing enough attention to himself to offset the penalties from the Concealment.

Example #2
Magician under Force 8 Concealment and hiding behind good cover. He peeks out and casts a Force 6 Manabolt. By my house rule, the Noticing Spellcasting Perception Test threshold is 8-Force instead of 6-Force. So the threshold is 2 and the observer is still subject to the -8 dice from Concealment, -2 for "Observer Distracted" and possibly -2 for "Object not in immediate vicinity."

Note that it isn't impossible for the characters in both examples to be noticed. It's just not terribly likely. A Force 8 spirit would have 16 dice for Perception Tests and would have pretty even chances of noticing the character under Concealment. OTOH, mundane security forces with Int 4 and Perception 4 don't stand a chance. Opposing Prime Runners with some vision enhancement and higher stats might have a Perception dice pool of 12, which means they'd still probably have to spend Edge to spot the Concealed character.

The above examples are standard combat procedure in my group. It's pretty damned effective and I don't think I'm making it easy on them. There is only so much I can do before I pull the GM dick move of having antagonists with no prior knowledge of the team's MO anticipate their tactics.

because they're clearly inferior.

I meant invisible of course sigh

I will go edit.

At the tables I frequent it does. As per RAW it's shaky and by shaky I mean "No."

First of all: No it is not a a ranged modifier.

Second: It is one of this powers, from which you get the idea, that spirits (and the techno equivalent) where thought be be between 3 and 6.
Because if you go up to 8 it is obvious broken.

Wait does Concealment work against things like radar, ultrasound, etc? I thought it was merely a visual camouflage?

Ruthenium used to (SR3) specifically affect attack tests, which was one reason it was so overpowered. In SR4, we've never used it that way, though. It seems like Perception and attacking are totally separate. Hmm.

As written, WyldKnight, Concealment works on everything. It'd have to, because Astral isn't a 'physical sense'.

First: I said as much, and I stated my reason why it should possibly be houseruled to work that way. Also, by me stating how we run it at my table means that we are using a house rule.

Second: ... What? I can barely understand that. Are you saying that Concealment is only "not broken" between Forces 3 and 6?

As an aside, whenever I read your posts I hear a deep-voiced, thickly accented Russian.

Imagine trying to shoot someone who is somewhere between one and four feet to the left of where you see/hear them to be.

It's like trying to play a FPS with a full second of lag (and there's no server side lag compensation like the Source engine has).

Aye, there's the rub. It works against *Perception Tests* regardless of what or who is making the Perception Test. I guess you could rule that a pressure sensor is not making a Perception Test, but a security guard with radar or ultrasound is still making a Perception Test and therefore suffers the penalty from Concealment. Only augmentations (or circumstances) that add dice to Perception Tests can counter Concealment.

I'm perfectly willing to have someone talk me out of that conclusion.

Well guards with 4 INT and 4 Perception probably are equipped with glasses/goggles that give +3 to visual Percetion, after the first shot they would probably be actively looking for a concealed shooter (+3) and immediate vicinity is a pretty subjective term.

BTW Lasers are not silent. While the light does not make any sound, the ionization of the air around it and the burning of the target does. The light amplification device may also make noise (fans etc.).

If this is such a standard procedure then security experts will have thought of it and have come up with a counter to it. At least in higher security areas I would not call it a dick move, if the guards were expecting something like that.

@Force 8: If the mage can summon such spirits most of the time without getting negative modifiers from the unsoaked drain, then you may want to consider not sending the runners on Low Level runs. More something like stealing Damien Knight's favorite loafers.

Concealment 8 *is* pretty high.

Anyway, a stealth sniper-mage *should* be pretty crazy, which is why there are magical counter-forces. … Where are the magical counter-forces? Even if you're concealed in Astral, your spells would be noticeable. And you're using a house rule to make it *harder*? Whose fault is that?

Also, bleh, laser weapons.

The mage pulls out the Force 8 when it's important and uses Force 6 most of the time. He's got Magic 7, so unless he's summoning it on the spot, a couple boxes of Stun is easy to wait out.

As for noticing spells on the Astral, how do you interpret this:



It seems to me like the intent is that an astral observer gets +2 for being Awakened and +2 for astrally perceiving. That certainly eats into the Concealment bonus but they've still got the -2 Observer Distracted until they're actively looking. I guess I made it seem like my team steamrolls everything. That isn't the case. They get noticed and they're almost always up against opposition with magical support.

Here's how Concealment ends up making a difference. They often (but not always) get the drop on their opponents and the magician is usually able to stay hidden from the mundanes for at least the first Initiative Pass. Magical support is like air superiority; until one side or the other has it they can't bring their magical force to bear on the other side. For better or worse in Shadowrun, the side that takes out the opposing magical support first usually wins. If you can hide your own magical support for even an IP or two, that gives the rest of your team that much more time to try to identify and take out the opposing magician(s).

Concealment isn't a sure thing but it is a powerful tool that, even when it's expected, can make a big difference.

There are some other positive and negative Astral modifiers, but yeah, you did make it sound like steamrolling: a high-powered Mage with a high-powered Spirit active, slinging high-powered spells… against Joe Security with *no* mods? However, Threshold 0 is Obvious, isn't it? Even if you houserule it up to 8, that's still 0.

The Shadowrun game falls apart pretty wickedly once you start getting Initiate 3 or 4 Awakends.
Force 8-9 Spirits, or Sprites.
Adepts with potentially 12 points of powers.

It gets pretty gruesome.

The problem is that a threshold 0 test is not properly defined. Is it the same as a threshold 1 test, or does it always succeed unless you get a critical glitch? What happens if the dice pool is reduced to zero on such a test? Do you automatically succeed since you can't glitch or do you need to spend Edge for a long shot and then you almost automatically succeed?

And don't get me started on SR4A's sparkles

well it's like in The Other Game, if you set your epic heroes against a bunch of 1st level commoners.

Hehe. Still, I think we can assume a Threshold 0 Perception test is obvious if you have the relevant senses. The rules are wonky in many places (why is 100% blindness only -6 for visual tests?), but yeah.

It's not clear to me which Threshold you use, the Noticing Magic one or the Perception Test Thresholds table? I would think you'd use the Noticing Magic formula in place of the other, especially since the fluff in the Noticing Magic says:



So, again using my 8-Force houserule and a Force 6 spell you'd have Threshold 2 for any Perception Test to notice the casting, even if the observer is on the Astral. I could be wrong, of course.

The most recent example of my team using Concealment to their advantage against powerful adversaries can be summed up in: (spoiler for DotA: Midnight)


Edit: Of course, I may simply have just made the case that the encounter design in Midnight blows.

I agree: it's a mess of shaky rules crossed with each other. And again, why are you using a house rule to make it more broken? Like, significantly harder (6 dice, as much as being fully Blind): under your rule, basically no one (99% mundane population) will ever notice 'normal' magic (Force 3 or 4, even 5). I agree that the book says 'not very', but that's more like 'not at all'.

Because the fluff goes out of its way to say that magic is very subtle and hard to notice and yet a Force 6 spell is automatically noticed. In the disagreement between the fluff and the rule I sided with the fluff. In a game where a magician can start with Magic 6 and (unwisely) overcast to Force 12, I don't think Force 6 should be the bar for super-obvious magic. Very much a case of YMMV. I fully admit I'm running a relatively high-threat game and this house rule gives the mage a chance of not being noticed.

That makes sense. I guess it depends on how 'high-powered' Force 6 is. Anyway, as I said, a stealth mage-sniper *should* be able to pull this kind of thing off, but (IMO) also *should* be more vulnerable (read: not-invulnerable) from Awakened/Astral foes.

Yep. The mage has 'almost-died' more than anyone else in the group. He got his butt handed to him in Astral Combat against a similar power magician, just due to some bad rolling.

Wait, one hit? Why ain't sneaky using Infiltration?

At least I know the PCs at my table always stack Improved Invisibility/Concealment (and Chameleon Suit) and actual physical Stealth for maximum redundancy/protection.

I faced the same RIDICULOUSLY TOUGH (on paper) encounter with a BADLY UNDERPOWERED team. (Like....three people ~17 Karma each. My Magic 5, Agility 4, Body 4, Strength 5 Initiate Grade 1, no-bioware Adept was the most powerful party member and we were all badly exhausted (no Edge left by design) when the fight started.) Fortunately, my adept managed to get a grenade past the Blood Mage's physical barrier a split-second before it went up. Blast in a confined space took care of the rest (the barrier) and a second grenade in the water and hydrostatic shock gimped the blood mage's getaway sub. Then we picked them apart with the help of the brokezor Mystic Crusader who came with us. I know as a fact that the GM underplayed the opposition, though. If she'd gone all out with the stats as written we'd have been done-for. The opposition was very very very powerful.

I do think that in the encounter as designed however the PCs are supposed to have the element of surprise.

If I had been GMing against you and you were WINNING I would have had the Blood Mage trigger his auto-injector of K-10 and/or cast a maxed out Jaguar Form spell. Different story.

The chunky salsa rules make the game far too deadly. Most combat is done in rooms/hallways under 15m across (that's a 45 by 45 foot room, or about twice the size of a middle-high income home's living room).

Most grenades in ShadowRun will completely fill this space and reflect part of the distance back.

(God forbid an NPC tosses a grenade at the PCs standing in a 3m wide hallway!)

Of course....a simple frag grenade (not intended for breaching) will chew through 20cm of SOLID BRICK by RAW if the grenade rolls into a corner (that's before any chunky salsa effect even occurs).

Grenades *are* deadly. AFAIK, real-life grenade are significantly more deadly than SR ones, especially with the crazy armor everyone has. Yes, the rules for blasts against barriers are kinda wonky. *shrug*

While grenades in real life do kill people, you have to remember that as a game mechanic "I'm sorry, you're dead" isn't a lot of fun.

Tell that to the Paranoia fans

Paranoia isn't.. sorry you're dead.

it's sorry.. but Joe over there got you killed in this incredibly ridiculous and convoluted way that made everyone's beer shoot out of their noses.

Semantics...

That's why grenades in SR are toned way down already. Just don't use them on your players in small hallways if you're worried.

Yes but an important one
secretly replacing your entire team's parachutes with backpack satchel bombs that detonate when you pull the ripcord is the whole point of playing Paranoia

Yeah, our last run involved a firefight inside a drug lab in Redmond Barrens, everything was going ok until one the gangers dropped a grenade as gift. If it wasn't for my shapeshifter's regeneration and Reaction + Dodge + Combat Sense above 15 dice, I would surely be dead at least two times.

Or having your secret society send you a secret encoded message in the group's briefing summons such that all you get is "You've been requested to come to-- BOUNCY BUBBLY BEVERAGE, NOW IN LEMON!" and then trying to figure out WTF you're supposed to be doing (and it turns out the briefing room is inside a cordoned off area and the job is to go in and fix the mess that caused it to be cordoned off...only you can't get in to get the papers showing you're allowed to get in because it's cordoned off).

Or ending up in a 4 car pileup in the zipcar tubes (with the fourth "car" being a Bouncy Bubbly Beverage tanker and everyone gets disolved).