Cyberbody & limbs, VR, and Movement, Is this possible Options

[klinktastic]

I just started in a new shadowrun game, in which I made a combat hacker who is fairly cybered out, complete with obvious full arms, legs, and torso. This situation never came up, but if I had to go into full VR, my body would just collapse. Now I'm not super concerned because I have 18/20 armor due to cyber armor on all my cyber locations. I was wonder though, I have my cyberware clustered into a group, slaved to my private commlink. Is it possible for me to use 1 of my 3 matrix initiative passes to command my cyber body to run/move? Kind of like a half ass rigging of my own cyber body? It would seem that I could use one action to use a command program to move. Now the level of coordination might vary, but it seems like it'd be possible. That way, I could have 2 extra actions to hack in the matrix. Let me know if you all think this is valid. I'm interested to hear what everyone thinks.

[Karoline]

Well, there is stuff in the books about how you have to be careful of hackers because they could (in theory) take over your cyberlimbs and force you to shoot yourself or something similar, so I don't see why you couldn't gain control of your own legs/arms and use them to move yourself around puppet style.

[KarmaInferno]

That's kinda one of the points of the cyborg rules.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)




-k

[klinktastic]

Sounds reason, good. Could I craft an Agent program with the command function, to perform this task for me. Have it be trigger by when I enter VR, it takes over the the movement function of my body.

[Karoline]

If you can do it, an agent can do it. You might run into trouble with it running you somewhere you didn't actually want to go, but yes, there is no reason you couldn't have it running your body around for you while you're out.

And no, the point of a cyborg is to have a drone for a body.

[TheScrivener]

I'd have to say this wouldn't work quite like you're thinking. It's one thing to command a cyberarm to seize up or shoot a foot, it's quite another to coordinate arms, legs and center of balance while running around avoiding obstacles and not falling over? That's what drones have Pilot programs for, and even with your 5+ essence setup, you're not stirruped as a biodrone, so a Pilot has nothing to plug in to: cyberlimbs aren't designed to take orders from a Pilot but rather a nervous system. I'd rule that you could give commands like 'stand' or 'raise arms' but walking would be a bit much; it'd take enough concentration that you'd have no time to hack, and you'd end up with penalties equal to the normal ones for moving during VR.

[TheScrivener]

If you can do it, an agent can do it. You might run into trouble with it running you somewhere you didn't actually want to go, but yes, there is no reason you couldn't have it running your body around for you while you're out.

And no, the point of a cyborg is to have a drone for a body.

How is an agent (which you now imbue with motor coordination skills) and its pilot program running a cyberbody different from a drone for a body?

[Mongoose]

In theory it should be possible to run your body as an anthroform drone. The only "by the book" way to do so is to install the cyberware designed for controlling bio-drones into your own body; this makes the presence (or absence) of cyberlimbs irrelevant.
Having a full set of cyberlimbs and a cyberbody might seem like it gives you the components for an antrhoform drone, but the software and flesh-to-metal interfaces aren't really suited to it. If they were, you'd basically also have the ability to run activesofts (or, as a drone, various targeting and sensor softs), which (without extra cyber) you do not.
So... its really totally house rule territory. It the least, I'd say it requires some pretty slick new software- basically a firmware upgrade / custom network between the limbs / custom interface.
If you did accomplish that, jumping into your own body would give you a fair number of IPs, without any reflex cyberware, which is kinda odd. And then what happens when your body takes damage?

Its all do-able, but requires some special rules.

[KarmaInferno]

And no, the point of a cyborg is to have a drone for a body.

Which is exactly what the OP is doing.

He is more or less rigging his own body.

It'd probably be easier to install a stirrup interface and turn his own body into a biodrone.



-k

[klinktastic]

No need to get all aggressive here. Just wondering what the implications are and how (if possible) to make this managable. I would agree, that having the entire body move would be very complex. What kind of 'softs could you give your agent to make it happen or at least happen well. Obviously it wouldn't be full control, but could you program simple commands like seek cover, bear crawl to exit, etc etc. That's what I want to discuss, not debate. Again, your input is appreciated, but no need to go overboard.

[Yerameyahu]

One point first: you don't 'collapse'. You get -6 to Physical actions.

Technically, this isn't possible, because they didn't bother making rules for it. They should have, especially because (as noted) they specifically say a hacker could theoretically do it *to* you.

I agree with earlier comments: it's probably best not to allow any complex, coordinated movements (get a Segway), but cruder puppeteer actions should be okay. Require Complex Actions for the control, as Remote Control. I don't think I'd let some random Agent handle it, either. At best, a custom Pilot (you'll probably need to code it yourself.)

I probably wouldn't allow someone at my table to do this for the purpose of 'rigging their own body', because you *know* they're doing it for the bonuses (if nothing else, a cheap way to get extra IPs). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) However, for specific, dramatically-appropriate actions, it certainly belongs in the game.

Regarding skillwires: because they work for even mental skills, 'skillwires' seem to be more like a brain implant than actual wires throughout the body. Either they only work for 100% physical actions (and, I dunno, process your sensory input), or they can be used to 'control' your body, but not both. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Pick your fluff, I guess.

[TheScrivener]

Sorry if it came off a bit harsh, that wasn't my intention; working on Saturday makes me crabby (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) . The fact is that there really aren't rules for this; you're basically trying to do a *partial* drone modification without all the biodrone equipment.

I'll tell you first that I wouldn't allow it simply for the headache it would add to combat. However, the implications are intriguing, and make me think of a Shirow-like world where all cyberware is contolled by interlocking drivers and full body cyborgs are (relatively) common. I'd say a clever GM might allow high-rating skillwires and MBW plus cybersenses to work together, run by a specially tasked single purpose agent to get a few maneuvers down - say one activesoft for each one maneuver. Move by wire is the key, though; cyberlimbs are almost irrelevant to that idea though...

[KarmaInferno]

Technically Move-By-Wire might be considered a version of this idea.

Bypassing the body's normal wiring by using an external artificial system.




-k

[klinktastic]

This is definitely getting interesting. The way I see it, if you have all your cyberlimbs DNI'ed to your commlink, aren't you "remote-controlling" them anyway while you are in AR? What would be the difference if you were in VR? You have the same capabilities, and more using matrix actions. I'm not suggesting that you'd have full 100% capabilities, but it would stand to reason that you might have better than nothing capabilities.

I like the idea of a self coded pilot program. Maybe something that could handle simple scripts. Obviously nothing like, full dodge, plus full auto fire every turn, but something a bit simpler.

Edit - Maybe you'd have to upgrade the cyber limbs' system and response levels above 1, maybe to something like 3 or 4. Then a specialized agent or pilot program. Something that would be able to carryout simple commands like, get to cover, make for the exit, etc.

[KarmaInferno]

The least "rules-gray" way to accomplish what you want is implanting a Stirrup Interface into yourself, and instead of having an external rigger controlling it, you just hardwire your own brain as the pilot and just stay jumped in.

You would suffer a -1 dice pool penalty to your skills, but gain all the benefits of being in VR.

As a side benefit, the Stirrup Interface acts as Move By Wire, so you don't have to implant a separate Initiative booster for when you aren't rigging yourself. Plus a "free" skillwire system.




-k

[TheScrivener]

You don't DNI anything to your comm, though - DNI means it's patched straight to your motor neurons, which is the reason why the self-rigging thing is so difficult. The DNI is the meat/machine interface, it goes from the device to the nerves, period. Your nervous system does the heavy lifting coordinating and balancing -walking uses way more than just the legs! That's why MBW would be necessary to get external control.

[Ascalaphus]

I like the general idea. Never mind the bonuses, it's about playing a transhumanist hacker/rigger who wants to control his body in a planned and transparent technical manner. True transcendance of mind over meat.

To glue the rules together, I'd say that it takes skillwires, stirrup or MBW to make it work. Puppeteering your own body doesn't grant IPs in and of itself; it can only take as many physical actions as your implants enable (yay MBW). Any additional VR actions can be spent on non-physical tasks however, should your body lack for IP enhancement. Alternatively, you could have a Pilot program "drive" your body for you, in which the Pilot gets only as many physical IPs as the meat can deliver.

[KarmaInferno]

To glue the rules together, I'd say that it takes skillwires, stirrup or MBW to make it work.

The Stirrup is already Rigger Adaption, Move by Wire, and Skillwires in a single package.



-k

[Ascalaphus]

I know, but I vaguely recall some fluff talking about how putting a stirrup on a metahuman was still out of reach, it only works on simple animals. Or something like that.

[Shrike30]

Best part about this would be hitting the character with something like Stick N Shock... stun damage from the round, more stun damage from the dumpshock from his own body (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ascalaphus]

Yeah, getting biofeedback when your own body is damaged is kinda sucky. Price you pay I suppose.

[Dreadlord]

Couldn't this also be handled like a mage who does Control Actions on himself? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Mongoose]

Its more like doing "control actions" on yourself, having a spirit maintain the spell, and then going astral...

[klinktastic]

Anyone have any house rules that might encompass this idea?

[Udoshi]

Well, i suppose you could put a stirrup interface in yourself, but thats a bad idea.

.... because while you can then hotsim rig yourself(maybe, its debatable whether you can put a stirrup in a human body), you also take biofeedback damage whenever you get shot.
... in addition to getting shot.