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klinktastic
I just started in a new shadowrun game, in which I made a combat hacker who is fairly cybered out, complete with obvious full arms, legs, and torso. This situation never came up, but if I had to go into full VR, my body would just collapse. Now I'm not super concerned because I have 18/20 armor due to cyber armor on all my cyber locations. I was wonder though, I have my cyberware clustered into a group, slaved to my private commlink. Is it possible for me to use 1 of my 3 matrix initiative passes to command my cyber body to run/move? Kind of like a half ass rigging of my own cyber body? It would seem that I could use one action to use a command program to move. Now the level of coordination might vary, but it seems like it'd be possible. That way, I could have 2 extra actions to hack in the matrix. Let me know if you all think this is valid. I'm interested to hear what everyone thinks.
Karoline
Well, there is stuff in the books about how you have to be careful of hackers because they could (in theory) take over your cyberlimbs and force you to shoot yourself or something similar, so I don't see why you couldn't gain control of your own legs/arms and use them to move yourself around puppet style.
KarmaInferno
That's kinda one of the points of the cyborg rules.

smile.gif




-k
klinktastic
Sounds reason, good. Could I craft an Agent program with the command function, to perform this task for me. Have it be trigger by when I enter VR, it takes over the the movement function of my body.
Karoline
If you can do it, an agent can do it. You might run into trouble with it running you somewhere you didn't actually want to go, but yes, there is no reason you couldn't have it running your body around for you while you're out.

And no, the point of a cyborg is to have a drone for a body.
TheScrivener
I'd have to say this wouldn't work quite like you're thinking. It's one thing to command a cyberarm to seize up or shoot a foot, it's quite another to coordinate arms, legs and center of balance while running around avoiding obstacles and not falling over? That's what drones have Pilot programs for, and even with your 5+ essence setup, you're not stirruped as a biodrone, so a Pilot has nothing to plug in to: cyberlimbs aren't designed to take orders from a Pilot but rather a nervous system. I'd rule that you could give commands like 'stand' or 'raise arms' but walking would be a bit much; it'd take enough concentration that you'd have no time to hack, and you'd end up with penalties equal to the normal ones for moving during VR.
TheScrivener
QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 23 2010, 11:04 AM) *
If you can do it, an agent can do it. You might run into trouble with it running you somewhere you didn't actually want to go, but yes, there is no reason you couldn't have it running your body around for you while you're out.

And no, the point of a cyborg is to have a drone for a body.

How is an agent (which you now imbue with motor coordination skills) and its pilot program running a cyberbody different from a drone for a body?
Mongoose
In theory it should be possible to run your body as an anthroform drone. The only "by the book" way to do so is to install the cyberware designed for controlling bio-drones into your own body; this makes the presence (or absence) of cyberlimbs irrelevant.
Having a full set of cyberlimbs and a cyberbody might seem like it gives you the components for an antrhoform drone, but the software and flesh-to-metal interfaces aren't really suited to it. If they were, you'd basically also have the ability to run activesofts (or, as a drone, various targeting and sensor softs), which (without extra cyber) you do not.
So... its really totally house rule territory. It the least, I'd say it requires some pretty slick new software- basically a firmware upgrade / custom network between the limbs / custom interface.
If you did accomplish that, jumping into your own body would give you a fair number of IPs, without any reflex cyberware, which is kinda odd. And then what happens when your body takes damage?

Its all do-able, but requires some special rules.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Karoline @ Oct 23 2010, 01:04 PM) *
And no, the point of a cyborg is to have a drone for a body.


Which is exactly what the OP is doing.

He is more or less rigging his own body.

It'd probably be easier to install a stirrup interface and turn his own body into a biodrone.



-k
klinktastic
No need to get all aggressive here. Just wondering what the implications are and how (if possible) to make this managable. I would agree, that having the entire body move would be very complex. What kind of 'softs could you give your agent to make it happen or at least happen well. Obviously it wouldn't be full control, but could you program simple commands like seek cover, bear crawl to exit, etc etc. That's what I want to discuss, not debate. Again, your input is appreciated, but no need to go overboard.
Yerameyahu
One point first: you don't 'collapse'. You get -6 to Physical actions.

Technically, this isn't possible, because they didn't bother making rules for it. They should have, especially because (as noted) they specifically say a hacker could theoretically do it *to* you.

I agree with earlier comments: it's probably best not to allow any complex, coordinated movements (get a Segway), but cruder puppeteer actions should be okay. Require Complex Actions for the control, as Remote Control. I don't think I'd let some random Agent handle it, either. At best, a custom Pilot (you'll probably need to code it yourself.)

I probably wouldn't allow someone at my table to do this for the purpose of 'rigging their own body', because you *know* they're doing it for the bonuses (if nothing else, a cheap way to get extra IPs). wink.gif However, for specific, dramatically-appropriate actions, it certainly belongs in the game.

Regarding skillwires: because they work for even mental skills, 'skillwires' seem to be more like a brain implant than actual wires throughout the body. Either they only work for 100% physical actions (and, I dunno, process your sensory input), or they can be used to 'control' your body, but not both. biggrin.gif Pick your fluff, I guess.
TheScrivener
Sorry if it came off a bit harsh, that wasn't my intention; working on Saturday makes me crabby frown.gif. The fact is that there really aren't rules for this; you're basically trying to do a *partial* drone modification without all the biodrone equipment.

I'll tell you first that I wouldn't allow it simply for the headache it would add to combat. However, the implications are intriguing, and make me think of a Shirow-like world where all cyberware is contolled by interlocking drivers and full body cyborgs are (relatively) common. I'd say a clever GM might allow high-rating skillwires and MBW plus cybersenses to work together, run by a specially tasked single purpose agent to get a few maneuvers down - say one activesoft for each one maneuver. Move by wire is the key, though; cyberlimbs are almost irrelevant to that idea though...
KarmaInferno
Technically Move-By-Wire might be considered a version of this idea.

Bypassing the body's normal wiring by using an external artificial system.




-k
klinktastic
This is definitely getting interesting. The way I see it, if you have all your cyberlimbs DNI'ed to your commlink, aren't you "remote-controlling" them anyway while you are in AR? What would be the difference if you were in VR? You have the same capabilities, and more using matrix actions. I'm not suggesting that you'd have full 100% capabilities, but it would stand to reason that you might have better than nothing capabilities.

I like the idea of a self coded pilot program. Maybe something that could handle simple scripts. Obviously nothing like, full dodge, plus full auto fire every turn, but something a bit simpler.

Edit - Maybe you'd have to upgrade the cyber limbs' system and response levels above 1, maybe to something like 3 or 4. Then a specialized agent or pilot program. Something that would be able to carryout simple commands like, get to cover, make for the exit, etc.
KarmaInferno
The least "rules-gray" way to accomplish what you want is implanting a Stirrup Interface into yourself, and instead of having an external rigger controlling it, you just hardwire your own brain as the pilot and just stay jumped in.

You would suffer a -1 dice pool penalty to your skills, but gain all the benefits of being in VR.

As a side benefit, the Stirrup Interface acts as Move By Wire, so you don't have to implant a separate Initiative booster for when you aren't rigging yourself. Plus a "free" skillwire system.




-k
TheScrivener
You don't DNI anything to your comm, though - DNI means it's patched straight to your motor neurons, which is the reason why the self-rigging thing is so difficult. The DNI is the meat/machine interface, it goes from the device to the nerves, period. Your nervous system does the heavy lifting coordinating and balancing -walking uses way more than just the legs! That's why MBW would be necessary to get external control.
Ascalaphus
I like the general idea. Never mind the bonuses, it's about playing a transhumanist hacker/rigger who wants to control his body in a planned and transparent technical manner. True transcendance of mind over meat.

To glue the rules together, I'd say that it takes skillwires, stirrup or MBW to make it work. Puppeteering your own body doesn't grant IPs in and of itself; it can only take as many physical actions as your implants enable (yay MBW). Any additional VR actions can be spent on non-physical tasks however, should your body lack for IP enhancement. Alternatively, you could have a Pilot program "drive" your body for you, in which the Pilot gets only as many physical IPs as the meat can deliver.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Oct 23 2010, 04:42 PM) *
To glue the rules together, I'd say that it takes skillwires, stirrup or MBW to make it work.

The Stirrup is already Rigger Adaption, Move by Wire, and Skillwires in a single package.



-k
Ascalaphus
I know, but I vaguely recall some fluff talking about how putting a stirrup on a metahuman was still out of reach, it only works on simple animals. Or something like that.
Shrike30
Best part about this would be hitting the character with something like Stick N Shock... stun damage from the round, more stun damage from the dumpshock from his own body smile.gif
Ascalaphus
Yeah, getting biofeedback when your own body is damaged is kinda sucky. Price you pay I suppose.
Dreadlord
Couldn't this also be handled like a mage who does Control Actions on himself? wink.gif
Mongoose
Its more like doing "control actions" on yourself, having a spirit maintain the spell, and then going astral...
klinktastic
Anyone have any house rules that might encompass this idea?
Udoshi
Well, i suppose you could put a stirrup interface in yourself, but thats a bad idea.

.... because while you can then hotsim rig yourself(maybe, its debatable whether you can put a stirrup in a human body), you also take biofeedback damage whenever you get shot.
... in addition to getting shot.
KarmaInferno
There's not a huge benefit to rigging yourself anyway.

With the -1 DP penalty from the stirrup, the +2 hot sim bonus is effectively halved.

And while you have an extra possible IP per round, you also often need to spend an IP every round just making a piloting check to control your body.

Add on the biofeedback damage on top of normal damage, plus double damage from electricity, well, it's not worth it, really.



-k
Yerameyahu
The idea for the OP seems to be controlling his body while he's 'away' in the Matrix. However, in SR4 (and 3, really), you're never fully 'away'. You have a -6 to actions, but that's not enough to stop you (a Runner) from taking cover, moving toward exits, etc.—which is what the OP seems to want? smile.gif AFAIK, 'disabling the RAS Override' isn't listed as a mechanical option any longer, although some BTLs mention they do it. *shrug*

… Does anyone know what Initiative you act on if you do take meat actions while using VR? :/ Maybe it's Matrix Init - 6, heh.

I agree that other people *do* want to 'rig' themselves for bonuses, so it's interesting to discuss that as well.
Karoline
I thought it was a -6 to perception tests, but nothing mentioned about any other actions.
Yerameyahu
Nope. smile.gif

"Any action taken in the physical world while in VR suffers a –6 dice pool penalty."
Karoline
Neat.

Hmm, I forget, does the VR give you a +2 to all matrix actions, or all actions preformed while in VR? That could mean you really only get a -4 penalty since the VR bonus partially cancels it out.
Yerameyahu
You mean Hot Sim. Matrix actions, of course. smile.gif Even though there's always some munchkin trying to do that, I think with a poorly-written Technomancer echo?

It's kinda of annoying the RAS Override override is gone, but I guess it's basically the same thing.
sabs
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Oct 23 2010, 08:50 PM) *
The least "rules-gray" way to accomplish what you want is implanting a Stirrup Interface into yourself, and instead of having an external rigger controlling it, you just hardwire your own brain as the pilot and just stay jumped in.

You would suffer a -1 dice pool penalty to your skills, but gain all the benefits of being in VR.

As a side benefit, the Stirrup Interface acts as Move By Wire, so you don't have to implant a separate Initiative booster for when you aren't rigging yourself. Plus a "free" skillwire system.




-k


Could you actually not be 'rigging' yourself?
if you hardwire your brain as the pilot?
KarmaInferno
Well, if your commands are operating your body through the stirrup interface, you are rigging. There's not a lot of grey there.

You can always elect to shut off the stirrup's rigging interface and just operate your body normally, but you lose all the VR bonuses.




-k
sabs
The way he was talking, I was wondering if you COULD turn off the stirrup interface.
klinktastic
Yeah, I'm wondering the same thing as Sabs. I didn't really want to rig myself, I just want to be able to issue commands through my DNI cyberlimbs. However, it seems that since going to VR or Hotsim, then you don't have the capabilities to funnel commands via DNI. Then, would it possible to switch from DNI to wireless, linked via commlink, then issues commands with your VR initiative passes via your commlink. At minimum, you'd get a hotsim bonus of +2, reducing the -6 to -4.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (sabs @ Oct 25 2010, 10:04 AM) *
The way he was talking, I was wondering if you COULD turn off the stirrup interface.

Well, in bio-drones a rigger has the option of letting the Stirrup-equipped animal operate autonomously, at which point the animal gets the benefits of the other have of the Stirrup, the Move-By-Wire.

By the book, the rules only really discuss putting a Stirrup Interface in animals, but it does not actually state the Stirrup is restricted to animals, and in fact there is mention that the Stirrup is derived from regular Move By Wire technology. You would probably have to also have an internal commlink between your brain and the Stirrup as well.

So, if you stop rigging, you should be able to go back to just using your old 1.0 meat interface.


QUOTE (klinktastic @ Oct 25 2010, 10:12 AM) *
Yeah, I'm wondering the same thing as Sabs. I didn't really want to rig myself, I just want to be able to issue commands through my DNI cyberlimbs. However, it seems that since going to VR or Hotsim, then you don't have the capabilities to funnel commands via DNI. Then, would it possible to switch from DNI to wireless, linked via commlink, then issues commands with your VR initiative passes via your commlink. At minimum, you'd get a hotsim bonus of +2, reducing the -6 to -4.

The only "book" way of totally controlling your own body via Matrix commands is the bio-drone Stirrup Interface.

You can send individual commands to a cyberlimb, but as folks said, it's not the same, as you'd have coordination problems.

I remember a flash game where you had to send commands to a running man's individual limb muscles to get him to move. Like, pressing "W" would flex the left knee, "E" would rotate the left hip joint, etc. You had to manually coordinate every joint of every limb. Most folks found it difficult to take more than a single step without the guy just falling over.


-k
Garvel
QUOTE
simple commands like seek cover, bear crawl to exit, etc

You know, you could have all this without houserules, by simply using the segway from arsenal page 107?
Give it a good pilot prgramm and autosoft, and it can even dodge if you are shoot at.
Crouch down on it before you go VR, and you can use low covers too.
Its only weakness is going stairs up.
TheScrivener
QUOTE (Garvel @ Oct 25 2010, 11:41 AM) *
You know, you could have all this without houserules, by simply using the segway from arsenal page 107?
Give it a good pilot prgramm and autosoft, and it can even dodge if you are shoot at.
Crouch down on it before you go VR, and you can use low covers too.
Its only weakness is going stairs up.

Two words: Smart tires.

"Alright i'm in the n-UHDUHDUHDUHDHUDUH-ode, I'm decrypting the files!"
Garvel
QUOTE
You can send individual commands to a cyberlimb, but as folks said, it's not the same, as you'd have coordination problems.

The coordination is indeed not easy, but it should be technically feasible to program an expert sytem that does this for you. What you will need in additon is a sensor for balance, the expert system can access, and a camera, so it gets a vision to avoid obstacles.
As GM I would say, that you can take the pilot program of the Renraku Manservant-3 and modify it, to suit your purposes.
You will have to wear an external ballance sensor on your head or have cyberears. Also you need a camera sensor on your head, or cybereyes. And a blackbox device, that runs the the Pilot program and has access to the two sensors and your four cyberlimbs via wireless or skinlink.
It will work like a drone you are giving commands to.
You will be able to walk, but not to run (also this should be technically feasible too with a better expert system), and you will be able to do the most things, the Renraku Manservant-3 does, like doing the laundry.
Garvel
QUOTE (TheScrivener @ Oct 25 2010, 06:11 PM) *
Two words: Smart tires.

"Alright i'm in the n-UHDUHDUHDUHDHUDUH-ode, I'm decrypting the files!"

Good idea. With smart tires it indeed doesn't have any weaknesses.
And a segway shouldn't be that heavy. As a fullborg you should be able, to carry it allways with you.
Yerameyahu
Does anyone else think the lack of cyber-control of your torso and abdomen is a major problem for coordinated physical actions of every kind? This is WRT the 'just control the limbs' ideas, not the 'use MBW/Stirrup/Wires' ideas. smile.gif

Like I said, I think this is really cool stuff that belongs in a (post?)-cyberpunk game, but I'm not convinced it belongs in SR4. Hmm.
sabs
BTW
if you're in full VR you're at -6.

How would people feel if you had

attention co-processor
cybereyes w/ camera OR external camera

allowing you to use a free action to operate enough of your body that you could do move actions, and use simple actions for basic physical actions at say only a -2.

Take Cover, but not Dodge, definitely not aim.

Garvel
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 25 2010, 06:55 PM) *
Does anyone else think the lack of cyber-control of your torso and abdomen is a major problem for coordinated physical actions of every kind? This is WRT the 'just control the limbs' ideas, not the 'use MBW/Stirrup/Wires' ideas. smile.gif

Like I said, I think this is really cool stuff that belongs in a (post?)-cyberpunk game, but I'm not convinced it belongs in SR4. Hmm.

Doesn't a cybertorso have its own Agility and Strength attribute? You should be able to control it too, the same way.
Alternatively you could just fix your torso somehow. With an enclosure or or a splint or something. As long as it doesn't bend over slackly, it is not nessary to control it particularly for walking or crouching behind cover.
Yerameyahu
It's just a shell, though. Doesn't make much sense. :/ Honestly, I always figured the torso stats were just the cost of 'matching' the limbs.
klinktastic
This discussion has been enlightening for sure. I see two different approaches:

1. Rigging your own body

2. Using complex software to run your body

My intial post was wondering if you could make matrix commands or use agent/pilot programs with simple scripts to make simple actions with your meat body. I'm not saying you'd be at 100% capacity, but definitely not -6 like someone who is 100% meat. Given that my character is about 90% cybernetic, only a head is original, it would stand to reason that there should be something that can be done, since there is mention of hackers hacking cyberlimbs and issuing commands. It would seem reasonable that a pilot program or even an agent with 3+ IPs could issue enough commands to give you basic functionality.
Garvel
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 25 2010, 07:19 PM) *
It's just a shell, though. Doesn't make much sense. :/ Honestly, I always figured the torso stats were just the cost of 'matching' the limbs.

It is a shell in the meaning, that your inner organs aren't replaced. Your abs and back muscles are replaced. At least thats how I interpret that the cybertorso has its own stength and agility stats.
sabs
your ribs are replaced too I think.. or are fused to your cybernetic torso
it's really icky
Ascalaphus
I'd say it replaces muscle and bone, including ribs and spine. Genitals optional. Other organs are basically no interfered with.
Yerameyahu
Nope, spinal replacement is experimental, according to the surgery table in Augmentation.

All we really know is that it *says* they're shells. Based on that, I'm not sure it's reasonable to replace any body or muscles at all. I can see your side, given the ridiculous ability of the torso to have boosted attributes, but I imagine that to simply be game balance. After all, who hasn't complained about it being stupid for cyberskulls to have Agility, for example? No logic at all. smile.gif
Ascalaphus
But then the whole point of needing a cybertorso to support heavy cyberlimbs becomes rather weird, without increased-strength, don't you think?
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