Two weapon fighting confusion, Why would you bother? Options

[capt.pantsless]

I feel compelled to re-post this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4nfZu8VqgQ

-k

That man is my new hero. I wonder how accurate he was with two SAWs at once.

[Dakka Dakka]

Personally, I'd rather avoid any house-rules for other-hand fighting, but if someone was shooting, say, an assault-cannon in one hand, I'd probably transfer half of the uncompensated recoil to the other hand.

You can't dual-wield assault cannons. Only SMG-sized weapons or smaller ones may be used in that fashion. The rules for using a single large weapon in one hand is only introduced as an optional rule in Arsenal.

[KarmaInferno]

That man is my new hero. I wonder how accurate he was with two SAWs at once.

I love the comment, "Those bullets look primarily composed of my tax dollars. Sweet."





-k

[ZeroPoint]

I have to say that the one thing that makes dual wielding very nice is during suprise/ambush combat. My dual pistol madman can reliably drop two enemies in the first round of combat.

2xRuger thunderbolts with a DP around 18-20
Simple action - Quickdraw Double SB on first target. < 2x(at 5+2+net hits) > Down.
Free action - Call shot for damage on second target
Simple action - Single Burst fire shot. < 5+4+2 +net hits > Down.

and since they are suprised all hits are net hits. So all you need is one hit per roll.

And being a partial Face makes this really fun to pull out after you get them to let down their guard a little.

[TheScrivener]

I love the comment, "Those bullets look primarily composed of my tax dollars. Sweet."

I've never been happier to see my tax dollars at work. And as for accuracy, I don't think "grouping" is as good a word for this as "swath."

[capt.pantsless]

You can't dual-wield assault cannons. Only SMG-sized weapons or smaller ones may be used in that fashion. The rules for using a single large weapon in one hand is only introduced as an optional rule in Arsenal.

But 2 assault cannons means MOAR DAKKA!! DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!!!

*cough* Ahem. Sorry, that slips out now and then. Back to the thread at hand:

It would be pretty crazy to fire an assault-cannon in one hand. Its -slightly- less crazy if you're big and strong. It's super Crazy-go-nuts to fire 2 of them at the same time. I was sorta meaning Big Gun in one-hand, pistol in the other hand. I was merely trying to use an extreme example to illustrate that SOME recoil would transfer from one hand to the other.

[Yerameyahu]

100% of uncompensated recoil affects both hands. The idea is that you have more total RC with two guns that both have RC 3 than with *one* gun that have RC 3. Therefore, less of it can be *un*-compensated. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

100% of uncompensated recoil affects both hands. The idea is that you have more total RC with two guns that both have RC 3 than with *one* gun that have RC 3. Therefore, less of it can be *un*-compensated. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Actualy, no. Recoil is accumulated by RAW per weapon. Only if you use both weapons with the same Aimple Action, any uncompensated recoil applies to both weapons. Otherwise that is indeed the tactic. And yes getting 3 points of RC on two weapons is easier than 6 on one.

It is not totally clear if this is legal, but you could also fire two long bursts with two weapons and with 5 RC each would not suffer any recoil. Even if this is out, just use a short burst with one weapon and a long one woth the other. Still with 5RC you won't suffer recoil. Still better than firing those bursts from one weapon.

[jakephillips]

Actualy, no. Recoil is accumulated by RAW per weapon. Only if you use both weapons with the same Aimple Action, any uncompensated recoil applies to both weapons. Otherwise that is indeed the tactic. And yes getting 3 points of RC on two weapons is easier than 6 on one.

It is not totally clear if this is legal, but you could also fire two long bursts with two weapons and with 5 RC each would not suffer any recoil. Even if this is out, just use a short burst with one weapon and a long one woth the other. Still with 5RC you won't suffer recoil. Still better than firing those bursts from one weapon.

I think this is right

[Yerameyahu]

I dunno, Dakka Dakka. Last time we had this same thread (sigh), I could've sworn that was the conclusion. Also, always err on the side of 'No Free Lunch, You Dirty Munchkin' (TANSTAAFL,YDM). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Jaid]

i don't recall anything restricting uncompensated recoil to within the same simple action. you sure about that? as far as i can tell, if it's in the same combat turn, you suffer from *any* uncompensated recoil.

[Dakka Dakka]

Recoil accumulates over the whole Action Phase, not Combat Turn, and per weapon. Only if you use two weapons in the same Simple Action does uncompensated recoil from one weapon affect the other.

Weapons that fire more than one round in an Action Phase suffer from an escalating recoil modifier as the rounds leave the weapon. Semiautomatic weapons that fire a second shot receive a –1 dice pool modifier for the second shot only.
Burst-fire weapons receive a –2 recoil modifier for the first burst fired in that Action Phase and –3 for the second. Long bursts suffer –5 (first burst in phase) or –6 recoil (second). Full auto bursts suffer
–9 recoil.

Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon.

The single Long Burst per Action Phase however is not explicitly tied to a single weapon.

Long bursts only take a Simple Action, but only one long burst can be fired in an Action Phase. An attacker could, however, fire a long burst and a short burst in the same Action Phase (or vice versa)

[TheScrivener]

I never understood recoil being by Phase instead of by Turn. Why does having faster reflexes make you immune to barrel rise?

[Dakka Dakka]

I never understood recoil being by Phase instead of by Turn. Why does having faster reflexes make you immune to barrel rise?

It doesn't, but you have the time to realign the weapon between the phases. Why else would tecoil reset after an arbitrary number of seconds?

[Neurosis]

I feel compelled to re-post this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4nfZu8VqgQ




-k

Yes.

[Summerstorm]

One thing that has always bugged me is the "Both weapons have to be used in the same mode" rule.

What if, for axample, i have a Sword in my right hand and a pistol in my left? I "should" be able to slice someone open while shooting another man in the face. But i have to houserule such occasions (Just: Lower dicepool limits and gets split , longer action is the time: you can't shoot twice, when cutting on the other side, AND no special maneuvres to borrow actions etc.).

Back to the original post: I myself like dual wielding. Nobody FORCES you to use both in the same action, but if the situation arrises you can do so.

For example good to:
- pile attacks upon someone to take down his dodge pool. (For example your team versus some enhanced, enchanted combat prime runner)
- pump someone full of poison/electric darts etc.
- do some major collateral damage while hunting down somebody (For a more cinematic style of play)
- juggle stats to optimize your LAST attack or FIRST attack (Dodge-penalty or wound modifier respectively)

And yeah, firing two panthers is awesome, yet impractical. (Though i would let my people do it... for a price... and under special circumstances.)
Also: here is a video of Arnold using two sniping railguns akimbo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHoIMBXKSos

[Whipstitch]

Clearly the point of using 2 weapons is so a quick draw artist can fire 4 different APDS loaded Eichiro Hatamoto IIs in the same action phase.

[Raiki]

Clearly the point of using 2 weapons is so a quick draw artist can fire 4 different APDS loaded Eichiro Hatamoto IIs in the same action phase.

For when dead just isn't quite dead enough.

[KarmaInferno]

I'll just leave this here...





-k

[Neurosis]

Clearly the point of using 2 weapons is so a quick draw artist can fire 4 different APDS loaded Eichiro Hatamoto IIs in the same action phase.

*facepalm*

Seriously, isn't quickdrawing a simple action? I know you can quickdraw and fire with one simple action, and that you can fire two dual-wielded pistols with one simple action, but where does it say that dual-wielding also lets you double-quickdraw and double-fire with one simple action?

[Yerameyahu]

There are a couple ways to get non-Simple Quickdraws. Not that the idea is less silly because of them, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Udoshi]

*facepalm*

Seriously, isn't quickdrawing a simple action? I know you can quickdraw and fire with one simple action, and that you can fire two dual-wielded pistols with one simple action, but where does it say that dual-wielding also lets you double-quickdraw and double-fire with one simple action?

Quickdraw is a simple action, which includes both the act of drawing and firing, but has a reaction+weapon skill test to do so. You're allowed to double quickdraw because the threshold goes up by 1 if you do it with two weapons at the same time.

What you aren't doing is quad drawing, but rather quickdrawing two times in a row, and dropping the first set of guns before drawing the other.


Also, you're silly, and should read the description of quickdraw before complaining about it.

"Two weapons may be quick-drawn and fired simultaneously, but this raises the threshold on the pistols+reaction test to 4 (see attacker using a second firearm, p.150. A seperate Pistols+Reaction (4) test is required for each pistol(threshold 3 if they are held in quickdraw holsters)"

[Yerameyahu]

Oops, I meant there are a couple ways to get non-*Pistol* quickdraws (because I forget the Hatamoto is technically a pistol, despite its appearance). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And yes, it's still silly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Shrike30]

Vaguely drifting back to the original question... I've got a couple of characters who run two-simultaneous-gun attacks reasonably often. One normally runs 15 dice (11 +2 smartgun, +2 machine pistol spec), which divides down to 7 dice apiece (round down and lose the smartgun) when running akimbo... still more than the average mook gets to dodge. The other usually runs 7 dice (6 +1 laser), which divides down to 5 dice (6/2=3 +2 akimbo spec) when running akimbo.

Making this work requires a few things:
-Keep your penalties low: engage targets inside of a few meters, and if you can get the +2 for point blank (applies to both rolls!), go for it. Don't open up with more rounds than you have RC for. If your target has cover, is outside of close range, or is generally being a pain in the ass by doing things like running or firing off the flashpak strapped to his armor, stick with one gun unless your starting pool is huge.

-Use decent weapons: you aren't going to get many more successes than your targets, so whatever you're hitting them with had better carry enough punch on it's own. Machine pistols are great for this kind of work if you can get enough RC on them as they basically add a couple of points of damage per burst to your target. SMG's are even better if you can hack it, as they have much longer effective ranges even akimbo.

-Use decent ammo: APDS would be my go-to here. Again, without many net successes, you need something that's going to get past body armor, or you're just flattening pistol ammo against someone's jacket for stun damage. There's a metagame arguement for preferring to do stun damage, but you don't usually start spraying bullets around with both hands when you just want someone unconcious. As even the lighter common armor types/combos give armor ratings in the 6-8 range, a couple of net hits won't usually bypass that. APDS makes even a light pistol capable of reliably inflicting a Physical wound on anything up to 9 points of armor, and drastically reduces the number of dice the target gets to soak what damage he does recieve.

[Dakka Dakka]

Vaguely drifting back to the original question... I've got a couple of characters who run two-simultaneous-gun attacks reasonably often. One normally runs 15 dice (11 +2 smartgun, +2 machine pistol spec), which divides down to 7 dice apiece (round down and lose the smartgun) when running akimbo... still more than the average mook gets to dodge. The other usually runs 7 dice (6 +1 laser), which divides down to 5 dice (6/2=3 +2 akimbo spec) when running akimbo.

You have misread the rules to your disadvantage. You just split the pool. There is no rounding. You don't even have to split the pool evenly. You could by RAW even go with a 1; (X-1) split with X=your pool. The first could as well be an 6/5 split with +2 to both for the specialization, so 8/7.

The conditions you need to effectively use dual-wielding are spot on.