Astral projection and spellcasting, powerful? Options

[shon]

Can an astrally projecting (I'm not talking astral perception, I'm talking '5km away body and yet here astrally') mage cast mana combat spells at mundane people? I mean, he can see their auras, so why not?
I gathered from the rulebook (SR4a) that they can. If this is indeed true, how would you deal with this: you have a small group of PCs that are mundane and being under attack by an astrally projecting mage. I mean the mage can hurl spells at them at any time and what can they do? No cover is good since astrally projecting guys can travel through walls (checked in the rulebook) so what would you do?
Is a call to a friendly mage for protection the only way out of this? I mean if you got not friendly mage, this is a quick and easy way to kill your PCs, should you need to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Am I right here? Does spellcasting (mana spell of course) against mundane targets work during astral travels?

[Dreadlord]

No, you can only cast spells at ASTRAL targets while projecting. Period.

[sabs]

You can only cast spells in astral space on targets that are astrally active. Being able to see their aura is not good enough.

[Yerameyahu]

The only reason it (barely) works for *Perception* is because your physical body is right there and you're one with it.

[Summerstorm]

The only reason it (barely) works for *Perception* is because your physical body is right there and you're one with it.

And still, grumpy people like me don't even allow that. Yes i am that mean to blind magicians... No astral-sight spells for you *g*. And yeah, i know i am going against the rules here.

[Dreadlord]

The only reason it (barely) works for *Perception* is because your physical body is right there and you're one with it.

I don't even allow Astral Perception to be used for spell targeting against mundanes in my game. Auras are only shadows on the astral plane, so much like shooting someone's shadow will never kill them, casting a spell at an aura is equally useless. That also prevents some cheese!

[Ascalaphus]

You should keep in mind that the physical world "causes" the astral plane; the connection is mostly one-way. Only astral things with Materialization, Possession or Inhabitation can really touch the physical plane.

[Shinobi Killfist]

The way I look at it is the astral plane is another dimension and there is a barrier between the two. Astral projection you are fully in astral space and can't punch through the barrier, astral perception you are in the doorway in the barrier and can shoot and be shot from either side of the barrier.

[Nifft]

The one neat targeting trick you can use is to attack Dual Natured but Astrally helpless critters (like Ghouls) while projecting.

Don't try this on Dragons, of course. They're not even slightly helpless on the Astral.

[sabs]

Dual Natured Ghouls, Wendigos, etc.. the least well thought out, most idiotic thing in Runners Companion. Which honestly is saying something. That book is so full of incredibly badly thought out crap it should be taken out back and shot.

[Yerameyahu]

Dreadlord, Summerstorm, I totally hear you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm not so extreme as to disallow the normal RAW for Astral Perception, but I preferred the strong Astral/Physical division. My solution (when needed) is simply to up the 'Astrally Perceiving' penalty for physical actions (similar to the VR/Physical divide), and to apply that penalty to spellcasting as well as actions like shooting.

[Summerstorm]

Hm... going into the connection between astral and physical world a bit more.

I vaguely remember (but have no idea if i just made it myself in my head . or where i got it), that regeneration IS a connection between the two planes. Something about your body reconstructing yourself according to your "astral blueprint", your aura. That was the point of it not being able to repair drain... because drain affects both aura AND physical body at the same time. (Because you lead many through both of them).

For that matter: casting a spell is a connection too. (So maybe one can open yourself to the effects of one world into another)? So maybe it could be possible (with a meta-technique?) to receive spells out of the astral world... even physical. So what i am trying to say: i want grounding back *g*.

EDIT:

Dual Natured Ghouls, Wendigos, etc.. the least well thought out, most idiotic thing in Runners Companion. Which honestly is saying something. That book is so full of incredibly badly thought out crap it should be taken out back and shot.

I always thought that was the reason for ghouls etc. to not walk around. In small, closed spaces (sewers etc.) anyone wanting to bomb them has to get close... where they can dual-fight your ass into mincemeat.

[Jaid]

Dual Natured Ghouls, Wendigos, etc.. the least well thought out, most idiotic thing in Runners Companion. Which honestly is saying something. That book is so full of incredibly badly thought out crap it should be taken out back and shot.

to be fair, that's hardly the fault of runner's companion. it's been around since wendigos and ghouls were in SR, if i'm not mistaken. to change it would have been a major retcon, and by the time runner's companion came out, the chance to change that was essentially long past... it's something you might change between editions (and even then you'll likely hear a lot of moaning and griping about the change and how it breaks continuity, even if it does make the rules a lot less broken) but i can't see how you would justify changing that once all the core books are essentially already out, and those rules have already essentially been made.

[Yerameyahu]

The chance to change a big problem is always *now*, but sure. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Besides, the damned things are meant to be *enemies*, so a huge weakness is fine. … Let's not even mention the auto-infection, though.

[shon]

Thanks guys, perfect replies. I just couldn't find anything in the book saying you can't cast spells at mundane targets in astral, now I know you can't and actually I'm happy as it looked way overpowered and cheesy. Thanks!

[Yerameyahu]

This is the crux of the matter:

A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets that are in the physical world.

Similarly, a magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted).

An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no physical presence.

[Seth]

This thread has triggered a conversation in our group.

We used to think (and play) that an astral projecting wizard could manifest on the material world like a spirit. After this thread we realise that is not correct. Is there any way (spell, initiation, spirit powers...) that allows mages who are astrally projecting to manifest and start zapping spells

[Summerstorm]

This thread has triggered a conversation in our group.

We used to think (and play) that an astral projecting wizard could manifest on the material world like a spirit. After this thread we realise that is not correct. Is there any way (spell, initiation, spirit powers...) that allows mages who are astrally projecting to manifest and start zapping spells

There is one (debated) possibility: Invoke a spirit, and command it to bestow the "Materialize" or even the "Posession" power on you. Theoretical you should now be able to materialize, or posess something, like a spirit (and even get imunity to normal weapons that way).

EDIT: Ah and no... not all spirits can do that. The power you are looking for is "Endowment". Guardian and Task spirits get it.

[Yerameyahu]

Be sure to keep the terminology straight: 'Manifest' is the 'I'm a psychic hologram' power that you *do* have, while 'Materialize' is 'become physical'.

[Draco18s]

This is the crux of the matter:

An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no physical presence.

Notably all that says is that you can (while perceiving) target unmanifested spirits with manabolt as if you were projecting or you can target that corp sec with a powerbolt as if you were not projecting. It does not say that you can target that corp sec with mana bolt to avoid cover or vision penalties.

[Yerameyahu]

Logically, I think you'll find your error. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'll help. The given condition is that you're astrally-perceiving. By definition, it replaces all other senses (even if you didn't want it to). The rule also says that you can cast at physical targets (again, while astrally-perceiving). Therefore, you have *no choice* but to use astral sense to cast on physical targets. (No one's talking about Cover, though.)

I don't like it either, but that's the rule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) Besides, we also know that you can *shoot* that corpsec with a gun with astral sense (-2 for 'magical distraction'). Same thing, WRT visibility.

[Draco18s]

I'm going to need my books in front of me before I can form any additional arguments.

[Yerameyahu]

Personally, I prefer a much more 'separate' Astral plane. None of this 'Astral Sense does everything I need!' crap. Harrumph. But, it would take a lot of rejiggering to 'fix' that in SR4, with all the existing rules, Dual-Natured entities, etc. Oh well.

[sabs]

It's pretty much fubared.

It specifically says you can't target's someone's aura, unless they are dual natured.
It specifically says you can target on the physical plane if you're astral perceiving.
It specifically says astral perception overrides your other senses.

All taken together they don't add up. One of these must be wrong, for you to be able to target. with a spell, a person in the physical world while using astral perception.

I have no problem using astral perception to aim your gun. You take your -2 penalty and you're basically saying you're shooting center mass on the area represented by their aura, and you hope the sizes match. I would however smack someone upside the head if they tried to do a called shot while astrally perceiving.

[Yerameyahu]

Haha, indeed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)