Can an astrally projecting (I'm not talking astral perception, I'm talking '5km away body and yet here astrally') mage cast mana combat spells at mundane people? I mean, he can see their auras, so why not?
I gathered from the rulebook (SR4a) that they can. If this is indeed true, how would you deal with this: you have a small group of PCs that are mundane and being under attack by an astrally projecting mage. I mean the mage can hurl spells at them at any time and what can they do? No cover is good since astrally projecting guys can travel through walls (checked in the rulebook) so what would you do?
Is a call to a friendly mage for protection the only way out of this? I mean if you got not friendly mage, this is a quick and easy way to kill your PCs, should you need to

Am I right here? Does spellcasting (mana spell of course) against mundane targets work during astral travels?

No, you can only cast spells at ASTRAL targets while projecting. Period.

You can only cast spells in astral space on targets that are astrally active. Being able to see their aura is not good enough.

The only reason it (barely) works for *Perception* is because your physical body is right there and you're one with it.

And still, grumpy people like me don't even allow that. Yes i am that mean to blind magicians... No astral-sight spells for you *g*. And yeah, i know i am going against the rules here.

I don't even allow Astral Perception to be used for spell targeting against mundanes in my game. Auras are only shadows on the astral plane, so much like shooting someone's shadow will never kill them, casting a spell at an aura is equally useless. That also prevents some cheese!

You should keep in mind that the physical world "causes" the astral plane; the connection is mostly one-way. Only astral things with Materialization, Possession or Inhabitation can really touch the physical plane.

The way I look at it is the astral plane is another dimension and there is a barrier between the two. Astral projection you are fully in astral space and can't punch through the barrier, astral perception you are in the doorway in the barrier and can shoot and be shot from either side of the barrier.

The one neat targeting trick you can use is to attack Dual Natured but Astrally helpless critters (like Ghouls) while projecting.

Don't try this on Dragons, of course. They're not even slightly helpless on the Astral.

Dual Natured Ghouls, Wendigos, etc.. the least well thought out, most idiotic thing in Runners Companion. Which honestly is saying something. That book is so full of incredibly badly thought out crap it should be taken out back and shot.

Dreadlord, Summerstorm, I totally hear you. I'm not so extreme as to disallow the normal RAW for Astral Perception, but I preferred the strong Astral/Physical division. My solution (when needed) is simply to up the 'Astrally Perceiving' penalty for physical actions (similar to the VR/Physical divide), and to apply that penalty to spellcasting as well as actions like shooting.

Hm... going into the connection between astral and physical world a bit more.

I vaguely remember (but have no idea if i just made it myself in my head . or where i got it), that regeneration IS a connection between the two planes. Something about your body reconstructing yourself according to your "astral blueprint", your aura. That was the point of it not being able to repair drain... because drain affects both aura AND physical body at the same time. (Because you lead many through both of them).

For that matter: casting a spell is a connection too. (So maybe one can open yourself to the effects of one world into another)? So maybe it could be possible (with a meta-technique?) to receive spells out of the astral world... even physical. So what i am trying to say: i want grounding back *g*.

EDIT:


I always thought that was the reason for ghouls etc. to not walk around. In small, closed spaces (sewers etc.) anyone wanting to bomb them has to get close... where they can dual-fight your ass into mincemeat.

to be fair, that's hardly the fault of runner's companion. it's been around since wendigos and ghouls were in SR, if i'm not mistaken. to change it would have been a major retcon, and by the time runner's companion came out, the chance to change that was essentially long past... it's something you might change between editions (and even then you'll likely hear a lot of moaning and griping about the change and how it breaks continuity, even if it does make the rules a lot less broken) but i can't see how you would justify changing that once all the core books are essentially already out, and those rules have already essentially been made.

The chance to change a big problem is always *now*, but sure. Besides, the damned things are meant to be *enemies*, so a huge weakness is fine. … Let's not even mention the auto-infection, though.

Thanks guys, perfect replies. I just couldn't find anything in the book saying you can't cast spells at mundane targets in astral, now I know you can't and actually I'm happy as it looked way overpowered and cheesy. Thanks!

This is the crux of the matter:

This thread has triggered a conversation in our group.

We used to think (and play) that an astral projecting wizard could manifest on the material world like a spirit. After this thread we realise that is not correct. Is there any way (spell, initiation, spirit powers...) that allows mages who are astrally projecting to manifest and start zapping spells

There is one (debated) possibility: Invoke a spirit, and command it to bestow the "Materialize" or even the "Posession" power on you. Theoretical you should now be able to materialize, or posess something, like a spirit (and even get imunity to normal weapons that way).

EDIT: Ah and no... not all spirits can do that. The power you are looking for is "Endowment". Guardian and Task spirits get it.

Be sure to keep the terminology straight: 'Manifest' is the 'I'm a psychic hologram' power that you *do* have, while 'Materialize' is 'become physical'.

Notably all that says is that you can (while perceiving) target unmanifested spirits with manabolt as if you were projecting or you can target that corp sec with a powerbolt as if you were not projecting. It does not say that you can target that corp sec with mana bolt to avoid cover or vision penalties.

Logically, I think you'll find your error.

I'll help. The given condition is that you're astrally-perceiving. By definition, it replaces all other senses (even if you didn't want it to). The rule also says that you can cast at physical targets (again, while astrally-perceiving). Therefore, you have *no choice* but to use astral sense to cast on physical targets. (No one's talking about Cover, though.)

I don't like it either, but that's the rule. Besides, we also know that you can *shoot* that corpsec with a gun with astral sense (-2 for 'magical distraction'). Same thing, WRT visibility.

I'm going to need my books in front of me before I can form any additional arguments.

Personally, I prefer a much more 'separate' Astral plane. None of this 'Astral Sense does everything I need!' crap. Harrumph. But, it would take a lot of rejiggering to 'fix' that in SR4, with all the existing rules, Dual-Natured entities, etc. Oh well.

It's pretty much fubared.

It specifically says you can't target's someone's aura, unless they are dual natured.
It specifically says you can target on the physical plane if you're astral perceiving.
It specifically says astral perception overrides your other senses.

All taken together they don't add up. One of these must be wrong, for you to be able to target. with a spell, a person in the physical world while using astral perception.

I have no problem using astral perception to aim your gun. You take your -2 penalty and you're basically saying you're shooting center mass on the area represented by their aura, and you hope the sizes match. I would however smack someone upside the head if they tried to do a called shot while astrally perceiving.

Haha, indeed.

It's not fubarred.

You can only cast against targets that exist on the same plane(s) as you exist.

So if you are...

Physical, you can only cast against Physical targets and Dual Natured targets.
Astral (via Projection), you can cast against Astral targets and Dual Natured targets.
Dual Natured (Dual Nature or Astral Perception), you can cast against any Physical, Astral, or Dual Natured targets.

The reason being if you are Physical, you can only affect that which has a Physical Plane presence. Likewise, if you are Astral, you can only affect that which has an Astral Plane presence. If you are Dual Natured via a power or effect, then you can affect targets on either or both planes.

You have 3 basic states...

Physical
Astral
Dual Natured (exist on Physical & Astral)

As long as you match up on at least one facet when compared to your target, you can cast against them. It's not a hard concept. Been that way for spelllcasting since SR1.

Yes, but how are you creating your mystical link?

They screwed up how they wrote astral perception.

The rules state that targetting someone's aura is not good enough, unless they are dual natured.
The rules state that while you're astrally perceiving you only see on the astral, and not the physical.

So /how/ are you creating your mystic link to your target so your spell can hit them.

That's not really the question, darthmord. It's the fact that *astral* perception counts as a *physical* sense; you're literally targeting people by their aura. It's only a problem (in this sense) because you're not supposed to do that (which is as arbitrary a rule as any other, so who cares?).

My point was only that I *prefer* a more separate astral/physical system.

because if you can target their aura when you're astrally perceiving, why can't you target it when you're astrally projecting?

Well, because you're not physically there. It's a *different* arbitrary rule. I wouldn't go too far with the logic chains for magic, but it would just be nice if they sounded consistent. Obviously, the rule is, 'you *can* target auras, but only if you're perceiving-not-projecting'. *shrug*

Anyway, I just don't like Perception replacing all the physical visions, and probably also hearing, smell, etc.

I don't either. If only they hadn't made the Astral just a mirror copy with weird photoshop effects.
it would have been much cooler if Astral was distinctly different from Physical.

SR has that as well. It's the meta-planes.

Something I've been considering for my own game is to disallow spellcasting on the Astral Plane altogether. Imagining that the Astral Plane is a "magical" place casting a spell would work about as well as firing a water gun while under water (i.e. it wouldn't work very well). Astral combat would then be handled by melee only, perhaps with some Initiate Grade techniques that a Mage could learn. Some may argue that this would make Spirits especially dangerous on the Astral Plane, but IMO it should be. Just as jumping into the water to fight with a Shark or Crocodile would be dangerous. Just something I've been considering, but haven't yet implemented.

**Begin Disclaimer: The above is IMO only and may or may not conform to the RAW/RAI :End Disclaimer**

I like that idea.

The rule is Aura alone isn't enough to target someone. The other component you need is to be on the same plane as them.

On the physical you are on the physical scene, the astral is on a television somewhere but you haven't turned your TV on.
On the Astral you are on the astral scene but watching the physical scene on television, dual natured beings while they are on the television it is happening so close you can see them right outside your door.
Dual natured, you are the cameraman for that television show that films both the astral and physical at the same time and are on both scenes at the same time because they are so close.

Just like you can't shoot someone on a television, you can't shoot someone from the astral unless whatever action on the TV is happening right by you. Seeing him on TV isn't enough to target him alone, you need to be close by. Just like you might need to be within range of your drone to remote shoot someone with it. Seeing it on another persons feed isn't enough. The cameraman is at the scene you are watching on television and could shoot someone in either scene if he wanted to.

I bet this will only entail that everyone who is able to turn astral perception off will do so and dual-natured critters will still be hunted by spirits.

ninja'ed by Shinobi
My post commented on Redcrows post.

Exciting idea.. Astral Combat becomes a useful skill. There would be a need to create several abilities/metamagics/maneuvers/terrain features to spice up the tactical choices though, otherwise it'll be as bland and bad as cybercombat.

Honestly, I think that Dual Natured beings should be able to defaulf on Astral Combat and Assensing. They live in both planes, dammit!

They basically can. That's not the reason they're illogical. It's the spells and Astral Movement rates.