How does sustaining spells work Options

[Seth]

While sustained spells do offer the opportunity to have an ongoing magical effect, they are also draining on the magician’s magical abilities. For each sustained spell the magician maintains, she suffers a –2 dice penalty on all other tests.

I am curious how this applies to spell casters. It is clear that magical tests (drain, spell casting, summoning) are covered, but are non magical abilities also covered?
For example

• body + armour rolls when avoiding damage
• willpower + countermagic when avoiding a spell
• non magical skills (athletics, infiltration, driving, shooting, melee)

I am aware of a few ways of avoiding this penalty:

• sustaining foci
• spirits
• quickening

are their any others?

Thanks for the help

Edit:
I was wrong about drain

Note that wound modifiers or sustained spells have no effect on the character’s dice pool for Drain Resistance Tests.

[Makki]

I'm pretty sure, non magical skills are not excluded, only passive tests, where you don't need to concentrate.
there's a drug that reduces sustaining modifier.

[Thanee]

I was wrong about drain

In general, Resistance Tests (Damage Resistance, Drain Resistance, Spell Resistance (incl. Counterspelling), etc) are not subject to negative dice pool modifiers, unless they specifically apply (like the armor piercing modifier of weapons).

Other than that, it applies to pretty much all magical and non-magical tests.

Bye
Thanee

[Irion]

In general, Resistance Tests (Damage Resistance, Drain Resistance, Spell Resistance (incl. Counterspelling), etc) are not subject to negative dice pool modifiers, unless they specifically apply (like the armor piercing modifier of weapons).

This is something I really do not get.
A lot of people are saying so, but if I look at the book, it tends to tell me otherwise.
(Or short: I have never heard any explanation for this statement.)


quote from the book:

While sustained spells do offer the opportunity to
have an ongoing magical effect, they are also draining on the
magician’s magical abilities. For each sustained spell the magician
maintains, she suffers a –2 dice penalty on all other tests.

So if I would just read the rules I would stick with all magic related test.
(Spellcasting, counterspelling, drain, summoning, bannishing, etc)

[Yerameyahu]

If you make it just *magic*-related tests, you're really giving the mages a big bonus, I think.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If you make it just *magic*-related tests, you're really giving the mages a big bonus, I think.

That is a definite... it would be huge... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Karoline]

So if I would just read the rules I would stick with all magic related test.
(Spellcasting, counterspelling, drain, summoning, bannishing, etc)

Where do you keep getting magic tests from? It says all other tests. This would obviously include all physical test. It would also include drain/soak/dodge/spell resistance/toxin resist tests, unless there is something somewhere else in the book that specifically excludes those tests from modifiers.

I know it doesn't make any sense that concentrating would make you less able to resist a toxin, but unless there is something else in that section that says otherwise, that is what RAW says should happen.

[Yerameyahu]

Even if you excluded resistances, it wouldn't be a good idea to exclude shooting, dodging, etc.

[Karoline]

Even if you excluded resistances, it wouldn't be a good idea to exclude shooting, dodging, etc.

Well, I don't see why it would effect dodging any more than spell resistance. They are both 'automatic' defenses.

I do agree though, there is definitely no argument for it not effecting shooting or other physical skills.

[Neraph]

In general, Resistance Tests (Damage Resistance, Drain Resistance, Spell Resistance (incl. Counterspelling), etc) are not subject to negative dice pool modifiers, unless they specifically apply (like the armor piercing modifier of weapons).

Other than that, it applies to pretty much all magical and non-magical tests.

Bye
Thanee

That's pretty much how I assumed it to happen, although I'm currently at a loss to explain why. Maybe it's listed in the pain modifier section?

[Thanee]

From SR4A p. 184

Step 6: Resist Drain
...
Note that wound modifiers or sustained spells have no effect on the character’s dice pool for Drain Resistance Tests.
...

It doesn't actually seem to state the same thing for other Resistance Tests (only that wound modifiers do not count), but it seems fair enough (and most logical) to assume, that those work the same way.

Bye
Thanee

[Neraph]

See, I still don't have 4A. I need to get it.

[Karoline]

From SR4A p. 184



It doesn't actually seem to state the same thing for other Resistance Tests (only that wound modifiers do not count), but it seems fair enough (and most logical) to assume, that those work the same way.

Bye
Thanee

I figured there would be a stated exception. And I do agree about the other resistance tests being a logical conclusion as well, but I don't think that dodge/counterspell would be included in this, and so would suffer the penalty.

[Aku]

Where do you keep getting magic tests from? It says all other tests. This would obviously include all physical test. It would also include drain/soak/dodge/spell resistance/toxin resist tests, unless there is something somewhere else in the book that specifically excludes those tests from modifiers.

I know it doesn't make any sense that concentrating would make you less able to resist a toxin, but unless there is something else in that section that says otherwise, that is what RAW says should happen.

While sustained spells do offer the opportunity to
have an ongoing magical effect, they are also draining on the
magician’s magical abilities. For each sustained spell the magician
maintains, she suffers a –2 dice penalty on all other tests.

Emphasis mine.

[Karoline]

Emphasis mine.

Yes, but those are separate things. One sentence (fluff) says it is a drain on their magical resources. The next sentence (crunch) says -2 penalty on all other tests (As in not the test for the spell you are sustaining). I do see how you could get that it only effects magical skills from that though.

[Thanee]

@Karoline: Yep, that is probably right (wound modifiers are applied to dodge rolls as well... this really does mean, that wound modifiers also reduce the already meager dice pools for the opposed test when resisting a spell, right?).

@Aku: Yep, but the next sentence (which is the actual rule, not just the fluffy text) does not state any exceptions.

Bye
Thanee

[Karoline]

Well, I'd personally spell resist tests as: The person resisting takes no penalties for wounds, but the person providing counterspelling drops dice from the counterspelling for wounds. Since it is technically a resistance test, but counterspelling is obviously something that requires concentration.

[Aku]

Yes, but those are separate things. One sentence (fluff) says it is a drain on their magical resources. The next sentence (crunch) says -2 penalty on all other tests (As in not the test for the spell you are sustaining). I do see how you could get that it only effects magical skills from that though.

Well, i'm not REALLY going to disagree, but you DID ask where they were getting the idea from (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Karoline]

Well, i'm not REALLY going to disagree, but you DID ask where they were getting the idea from (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Very true, and as I said, I could see where you got it from, just pointing out what the actual RAW was.

[Thanee]

See, I still don't have 4A. I need to get it.

Absolutely! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Seth]

Thanks for the replies. I think that the following is the consensus of above:

Sustaining spells modifies all rolls that require the spell caster to do something, but not rolls that are happening to the spell caster. For example almost all skill rolls would be affected, but not rolls that you do not consciously control such as "body absorbs damage", "resists toxins", or" resists drain". The implication is that in the quote I gave the use of the words " they are also draining on the magician’s magical abilities" is basically fluff!

I also noted that there isn't a strong consensus on how counterspell should work. I don't have a strong view on this, except to observe that its already very hard to resist spells, and making it harder to resist spells increases the power of magicians. I would thus be tempted to rule that counterspell isn't affected. Especially given that it might not be the magician that is rolling the counterspell: he is lending die to other people as well. I don't have a strong view on this, so am interested in what other people think.