Compatibility of Superthyroid Gland and Wired Reflexes/Synaptic Booster/MbW Options

[Eisenbeiß]

How do I have to understand the following sentence from the description of Wired Reflexes (SR4A p. 342)?

"Wired reflexes cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement, except Reaction Enhancers."

Does it only refer to the incompatibility of different IP-enhancement methods or does it mean that the use of Wired Reflexes (or Synaptic Booster, MbW etc) is mutually exclusive with gaining the reaction bonus of a superthyroid gland. The third and most simple interpretation is that both enhancements can never be implanted into the same character. Which is the right one?

Sorry about this question, but I'm no native speaker.

[Karoline]

This gets debated from time to time. I think it is generally take to mean that MbW, Synaptic Boosters, and Wired Reflexes are mutually exclusive, and that is about it. As I said though, it gets debated from time to time, haven't seen one in a while though, so get ready (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[jakephillips]

I normally just do it with things that give extra IP's.

[Laodicea]

I normally just do it with things that give extra IP's.

Bingo.

[Pollux710]

Had a character with synaptic boosters and super thyroid. GM called it good, since STG didn't boost IP. That's my 2 cents anyway.

[Muspellsheimr]

The common confusion on this occurs for two reasons:

First, Wired Reflexes specifically references Reaction Enhancers
Second, Reaction Enhancers states it is incomparable with most other Initiative enhancements.


How it actually works:
Reaction Enhancers are not a form of Initiative enhancement - they do not provide a bonus to your Initiative or Initiative Passes. Instead, they provide a bonus to Reaction. The increased Initiative is a side-effect due to it being a derived attribute.

Anything that states it is incompatible with other forms of Initiative enhancement means it does not work with anything that provides a direct increase to the Initiative derived attribute, or an increase to Initiative Passes.

Reaction Enhancers does not function with most other Initiative enhancements, without defining what "most" actually is. Thus, unless something specifically states it does not function with Reaction Enhancers, they function together normally.

[Zyerne]

I think it's a badly worded hangup from earlier editions. If they'd just put "not compatible with any other form of Initiative Pass enhancement" it would have been a lot simpler.

Back in SR2, Reaction enhancers worked with everything except MBW. MBW could instead be combined with level 1 Synpatic Accelerators for hefty (by SR2 standards) +5D6 to Init.

Of course,in those days, a cyberarm gyro was 1.5 essence and 250k nuyen, so clearly times have changed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

I guess that is RAI, but unfortunately RAW is something different. The important phrase is

Wired reflexes cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement, except Reaction Enhancers.

Meaning that, as silly as it sounds, Reaction Enhancers are considered an Initiative enhancement. So anything else that does the same thing (Raise REA) should also be considered Initiative enhancement as well, but since those things are not Reaction Enhancers, they are incompatible.

It becomes really interesting when you read the effect of Wired Reflexes. Contrary to how most people play, this piece of 'ware does not raise Reaction, but provides bonus dice:

When activated, wired reflexes confer a bonus of +1 to Reaction and +1 Initiative Pass per point of rating.

So you could max your REA with Reaction Enhancers and still get +1,+2 or +3 to REA and IPs.

[Mäx]

It becomes really interesting when you read the effect of Wired Reflexes. Contrary to how most people play, this piece of 'ware does not raise Reaction, but provides bonus dice:

So you could max your REA with Reaction Enhancers and still get +1,+2 or +3 to REA and IPs.

WHAT (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
How on earth do you read confers a +1 to reaction and come to conclusin that it doesn't raise your Reaction.

[Zyerne]

I'm curious if the actual intent was to make reaction enhancers not work with magc/drugs.

[Thanee]

Just because "bonus" is also a part of "bonus dice" doesn't mean that every use of the word "bonus" means "bonus dice".

Really not. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Dakka Dakka]

Because it is worded as a bonus and not as a raised attribute. I remind you about that passage about bonus dice:

Shadowrun, Fourth Edition, uses four distinct types of modifiers: Attribute modifiers, Skill modifiers, threshold modifiers, and dice pool modifiers. Attribute and Skill modifiers affect the character’s relevant stats directly, resulting in augmented Attribute Ratings and modified Skill Ratings respectively (see Attribute Ratings, p. 68, and Skill Ratings, p. 68).
[...]
The type of modifier in question is noted in the description of each modifier. Should there be any doubt, assume the modifier is a dice pool modifier.

Since the description of Wired Reflexes does not say anything about raising the Attribute Rating we must assume it is a dice pool modifier.

[Zyerne]

If you can get that interpretion past a GM, I'll salute you.

Couple of other excerpts, bioware this time.

Suprathryroid: 'Attribute bonus'

Synthacardium: 'Dice pool modifier'

Personally, I'm not in any doubt that the reaction bonus from WR is an attribute bonus. This is confirmed by all the pregens that show it as included in the statline as an augmented attribute.

[Dakka Dakka]

I think it is RAI for them to be augmented Attributes, but that is not RAW.
I never said, I would want to play them as dice pool modifiers.
The problem is that the writers never use consistent terminology.

[Zyerne]

One man's RAW is another man's RAI, I guess.

[Karoline]

I think it is RAI for them to be augmented Attributes, but that is not RAW.
I never said, I would want to play them as dice pool modifiers.
The problem is that the writers never use consistent terminology.

You know what really sucks? If wired reflexes is really a DP bonus to reaction (which it isn't), that means it doesn't increase your initiative at all, because initiative is based on the stat, not the DP, and the reaction DP doesn't come into effect when rolling initiative.

Personally I can't read "+1 bonus to [attribute]" as anything but an Attribute Modifier.

Note that synaptic boosters suffer this same problem. As does MbW since it says '+2 bonus to reaction attribute' and not a '+2 reaction attribute modifier'.

[Dakka Dakka]

You know what really sucks? If wired reflexes is really a DP bonus to reaction (which it isn't), that means it doesn't increase your initiative at all, because initiative is based on the stat, not the DP, and the reaction DP doesn't come into effect when rolling initiative.

I agree. There may even be a reason, why Improved Reflexes explicitly includes this effect:

For each level, you receive +1 die to Reaction (this also affects
Initiative) and 1 extra Initiative Pass.

This one is clear though that it is a dice pool modifier.
Too bad you can no longer increase REA, except with drugs after taking this power.

Note that synaptic boosters suffer this same problem. As does MbW since it says '+2 bonus to reaction attribute' and not a '+2 reaction attribute modifier'.

Yup.

[StealthSigma]

Synthacardium: 'Dice pool modifier'

Which means that Synthacardium does not apply against the augmented cap for those skills.

--

I think it is RAI for them to be augmented Attributes, but that is not RAW.
I never said, I would want to play them as dice pool modifiers.
The problem is that the writers never use consistent terminology.

Any player would love for them to be played as dice pool modifiers over attribute increases. Maximizes your dice pool since it doesn't count against the augmented cap.

--

Just to throw the various attribute increasing augments together (SR4 only)....

Cyberware
<Material> bone lacing confers a bonus of +X to the Body attribute for damage resistance tests.
Muscle replacement increase both the Strength and Agility attributes by its rating.
Add the rating of reaction enhancers to a character's Reaction attribute.
When activated, wired reflexes confer a bonus of +1 to Reaction and +1 Initiative Pass per point of rating.

Bioware
Increase the recipient's Body by the bone density rating for damage resistance tests.
Muscle augmentation adds its rating to the character's Strength.
Muscle toner adds its rating to the character's Agility.
The suprathyroid gland provides an attribute bonus of +1 to the user's Body, Agility, Reaction, and Strength.
The cerebral booster augments the user's Logic attribute by its rating.
The booster confers a bonus of +1 Reaction and +1 Initiative Pass per point of rating. (Synaptic Booster)

[StealthSigma]

Edit.

[Mäx]

Because it is worded as a bonus and not as a raised attribute. I remind you about that passage about bonus dice:

Since the description of Wired Reflexes does not say anything about raising the Attribute Rating we must assume it is a dice pool modifier.

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It very clearly says you get +1 to Reaction per rating, how you can read that as not saying it raises the attributes rating i really can't fathom.

[Dakka Dakka]

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It very clearly says you get +1 to Reaction per rating, how you can read that as not saying it raises the attributes rating i really can't fathom.

Because it actually does not say that it adds to the Attribute Rating. It only says it gives a bonusto Reaction. So it is not clearly an Attribute Augmentation and p. 61 tells us that when in doubt use it as a dice pool modifier.

Just to reiterate, neither do I play it as a dice pool modifier, nor do I want to. This is an exercise to to see what happens if you follow RAW to the letter.

[Mäx]

No it just say that you get a bonus and that bonus is +1 to Reaction and +1 IP.
+1 to attribute is a terminology that the books uses in multiple places and it allways refers to a increas in the attribute rating.

By your twisted reading there are very few thinks in the game that actually augments someone's attributes.

[Dakka Dakka]

By your twisted reading there are very few thinks in the game that actually augments someone's attributes.

Right, this is why I advocate a clear and consistent terminology in the rules section. "raises the Attribute by its Rating" would work in any case, where an augmented Attribute is supposed to be created. "adds X dice to tests involving [Attribute]" for everything else.
This would also make the description of Bone Lacing and Combat Sense a lot less ambiguous.

[Mäx]

Right, this is why I advocate a clear and consistent terminology in the rules section.

More consistency would always be nice, but +x Attribute is consistently used to prefer to an augmentation to attribute y.

[Dakka Dakka]

And it is consistently unclear. Especially since there are othere instances where different wording is used although the same thing may be meant:

Add the rating of reaction enhancers to a character’s Reaction attribute
(this will also affect Initiative).