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> LOS with cyber radar sensors?, Spellcasting and radar cyberware
Inncubi
post Nov 16 2010, 06:33 PM
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When a mage undergoes cybersurgery and replaces his eyes with cyberones, he can target spells using the mods those puppets have. Thermographic and low light vision, then are assumed as antural vision for targeting spells...

What happens if he gets a radar mod? Is that visual? Is it not? Can the mage then target spells through walls?

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Zyerne
post Nov 16 2010, 06:59 PM
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I recall reading on here recently that the answer to that is no. Don't recall the thread unfortunately.
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Tanegar
post Nov 16 2010, 07:05 PM
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Sanity check: would allowing a mage to cast spells through solid walls make him even more brokenly overpowered than he already is? Yes. Yes, it would. Therefore, no. No, he can't.
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Inncubi
post Nov 16 2010, 07:24 PM
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QUOTE (Tanegar @ Nov 16 2010, 02:05 PM) *
Sanity check: would allowing a mage to cast spells through solid walls make him even more brokenly overpowered than he already is? Yes. Yes, it would. Therefore, no. No, he can't.


Sanity check: I deffinitely agree with you on all those levels. The thing is if that conclusion is supported by RAW. If its not, then I'd simply house rule it saying that no, wall negating magic is not going to happen in /my/ game.

I tried looking in the forums too, but couldn't find anything of the sort...

And extending the query, what sensory augmentations would qualify for LOS when targeting spells?
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Summerstorm
post Nov 16 2010, 08:04 PM
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AND the radar isn't a a standart senseware like eyes or ears... you still have to "mentally read" it. It is just a sensor IN your body with DNI.

So no... i don't think you can cast through it.
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darthmord
post Nov 16 2010, 08:11 PM
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QUOTE (Inncubi @ Nov 16 2010, 01:33 PM) *
When a mage undergoes cybersurgery and replaces his eyes with cyberones, he can target spells using the mods those puppets have. Thermographic and low light vision, then are assumed as antural vision for targeting spells...

What happens if he gets a radar mod? Is that visual? Is it not? Can the mage then target spells through walls?


The radar cyberware has to translate the radar signals into electrical impulses so your brain can understand them. Electronic translations = No LOS for you. Think of radar as being like electronic binoculars. There is signal translation so you cannot use them to get magical LOS. Optical binoculars you can however.

Cyber eyes work because they are outputting the same signalling that your body uses (not to mention that you are exchanging a natural sense for a cyber one that is the same otherwise). Metahumans don't have natural radar.
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Game2BHappy
post Nov 16 2010, 08:13 PM
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Interesting quote from the search-fu:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...mp;#entry641977

QUOTE (Synner @ Feb 28 2008, 07:52 AM) *
Spell targeting when it comes to metahumans, for yet unknown reasons, is linked to visually (or alternately astrally) targeting a subject with the sense of sight - and by extension to what the metahuman eye can see. Why this is metahuman thaumaturgy hasn't yet worked out, but whether a spell is LOS or touch it always requires a mystic link (the spell targeting part) that is enabled by the sense of sight (whether physical or astral) - taste, sound, smell and even simple touch do not work.

The sense of sight can be optically or electronically enhanced, but in all cases the mystic connection involved in spell targeting is established by direct stimuli to the eyes (even if from unusual parts of the visual light spectrum.)

The reason Radar Sense and Ultrasound do not work is because they do not translate direct visual stimuli (enhanced or not) into visual sensory data, but instead create an entirely electronic composite visual representation of non-visual sensory data that is placed over your normal vision (or lack thereof) - this digital compositing destroys the mystical connection needed.

Biological echolocation also doesn't work because the sense of sight is not involved, it is a form of "acoustic sensing" (ie. non-visual).

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Inncubi
post Nov 16 2010, 08:15 PM
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QUOTE (darthmord @ Nov 16 2010, 03:11 PM) *
The radar cyberware has to translate the radar signals into electrical impulses so your brain can understand them. Electronic translations = No LOS for you. Think of radar as being like electronic binoculars. There is signal translation so you cannot use them to get magical LOS. Optical binoculars you can however.

Cyber eyes work because they are outputting the same signalling that your body uses (not to mention that you are exchanging a natural sense for a cyber one that is the same otherwise). Metahumans don't have natural radar.


Sorry, but I am not convinced by this argument.

No human has thermographic vision nor vision magnification. But both qualify for LOS when buying cybereyes because they are sight based and teh mage paid the essence cost, hence assumed to be natural from then on.

Now, is the radar sight based?

If so, why wouldn't it be analogous to thermographic, low-light or vision magnification?

How about Bioware thermosense organs?
How about echolocation?


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Yerameyahu
post Nov 16 2010, 08:24 PM
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Because no metahuman has natural ultrasound or radar vision. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Logic is not important.

Thermosense and echolocation can be used for LOS, but they're pretty crappy.
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Tanegar
post Nov 16 2010, 10:35 PM
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QUOTE (Inncubi @ Nov 16 2010, 03:15 PM) *
Sorry, but I am not convinced by this argument.

No human has thermographic vision nor vision magnification. But both qualify for LOS when buying cybereyes because they are sight based and teh mage paid the essence cost, hence assumed to be natural from then on.

Now, is the radar sight based?

If so, why wouldn't it be analogous to thermographic, low-light or vision magnification?

How about Bioware thermosense organs?
How about echolocation?

As one of the guys I play BattleTech once said to me, "You're doing that reality thing again. Stop it." Shadowrun's LOS rules are an abstraction, necessarily so. No, they don't make sense "logically." That couldn't possibly matter less. What matters is if any given interpretation unbalances the game (moreso than it already is). Letting mages cast through walls basically makes them unhittable, unstoppable, unkillable gods, so any interpretation which allows that is right out.
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Glyph
post Nov 16 2010, 11:05 PM
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The big difference is that thermographic vision is translated directly into your vision. Radar and ultrasound are converted into topological maps - in other words, the computer draws a picture for you. So it isn't really an actual sense, visual or otherwise.
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Inncubi
post Nov 16 2010, 11:37 PM
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QUOTE (Tanegar @ Nov 16 2010, 05:35 PM) *
As one of the guys I play BattleTech once said to me, "You're doing that reality thing again. Stop it." Shadowrun's LOS rules are an abstraction, necessarily so. No, they don't make sense "logically." That couldn't possibly matter less. What matters is if any given interpretation unbalances the game (moreso than it already is). Letting mages cast through walls basically makes them unhittable, unstoppable, unkillable gods, so any interpretation which allows that is right out.


Again: I totally agree with you regarding the balance maintaining reasoning. Yes it is an abstraction, yes, magic has no parallel in real life. My question has nothing to do with "game applied physical explanations" but by RAW.

In syllogistic form my argument goes like this:

Visual cyberenhancements are valid as a LOS targetting systems for spells.
Radar sensor cyberware is a visual cyberenhancement.
Radar sensors are a valid LOS targetting system for spells.

Now, I deffinitely agree with you that if the answer to this is positive I'd GM it into submission saying: "No, mages cannot use it like that because I say so." Then I'll try to come up with a fluffy explanation so the game is enriched.

But, by RAW... Am I wrong?

QUOTE (Glyph @ Nov 16 2010, 06:05 PM) *
The big difference is that thermographic vision is translated directly into your vision. Radar and ultrasound are converted into topological maps - in other words, the computer draws a picture for you. So it isn't really an actual sense, visual or otherwise.


Now the topological argument is very good to support the denial to use radar -or ultrasound, for that matter- as a way to target a spell by LOS. It denies the affirmation that radar is in any way a visual enhancement, but rather a very different way of sensing stuff translated into visual form.

It breaks down one of the premises required for the conclusion.



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Yerameyahu
post Nov 16 2010, 11:45 PM
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It's the difference between senses and sensors, a distinction that SR4 uses (often without clarity). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Mäx
post Nov 17 2010, 07:40 AM
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QUOTE (Inncubi @ Nov 17 2010, 01:37 AM) *
Radar sensor cyberware is a visual cyberenhancement.

This is where your line of reasoning fails, as radar isn't a visual enchament.
It head ware that provides you with a picture of the surrounding area.
Did you totally miss the quote for the line developer of the game explaining all of that. If you did it's in the post 7.
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Yerameyahu
post Nov 17 2010, 07:48 AM
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Ultrasound shouldn't be a visual enhancement, either, even though it falls under that category for external gear. It's clearly a sensor, just like radar.
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Mäx
post Nov 17 2010, 07:49 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Nov 17 2010, 09:48 AM) *
Ultrasound shouldn't be a visual enhancement, either, even though it falls under that category for external gear. It's clearly a sensor, just like radar.

As it's an external gear its category doesn't really matter as mage can't get LOS with it anyway, what with it being an external piece of gear.
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Yerameyahu
post Nov 17 2010, 07:51 AM
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Sure, I'm just making a side note: the writers erred and jammed Ultrasound into the Visual Enhancement category (as if you add it to a camera), instead of the Sensor category (which it clearly is).
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Machiavelli
post Nov 17 2010, 11:38 AM
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The spell "Farsight???" also gives a clear vision through walls but does not count as LOS (spell description says so), so it wouldn make sense to target spells via radar...
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Ascalaphus
post Nov 17 2010, 08:05 PM
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Just to muddle the waters:
QUOTE (the latest FAQ at http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml#casting)
Can you cast spells if blind?

Sight is the most common means of establishing a connection with a target (hence the range "Line of Sight"), but by no means the only one. If you physically see, astrally perceive, or touch the target, you can cast the spell.

In situations where the player wishes for their character to use another sense (hearing, smell, echolocation, etc.) to cast a spell, it's up to the gamemaster to decide if that is possible. At the very least, a Perception Test involving the sense in question is called for, with appropriate modifiers (Using Perception, pp.135-136, SR4A). In the case of enhanced senses, the enhanced sense must be integral to the character (i.e., cyberears with audio enhancement would work, but earplugs with audio enhancement would not). Naturally, this works better for Indirect Combat Spells than others.


There's a lot of contradictions and handwaving involved with targeting spells. Rather far-fetched explanations are sought to come up with a difference between cybereye thermographic vision and ultrasound "sight". The explanations often make little scientific sense, but they often serve to justify rules to the effect that you can't cast through walls. I doubt people think using ultrasound instead of thermographics to target people is really overpowered. The visibility modifiers are roughly the same, but they circumvent different sorts of concealment. But I expect almost evryone to agree casting through walls would be overpowered.
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Bodak
post Dec 16 2010, 12:11 AM
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QUOTE (Inncubi @ Nov 17 2010, 05:24 AM) *
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Nov 17 2010, 05:05 AM) *
Sanity check: would allowing a mage to cast spells through solid walls make him even more brokenly overpowered than he already is? Yes. Yes, it would. Therefore, no. No, he can't.
Sanity check: I deffinitely agree with you on all those levels. The thing is if that conclusion is supported by RAW. If its not, then I'd simply house rule it saying that no, wall negating magic is not going to happen in /my/ game.

QUOTE (Inncubi @ Nov 17 2010, 09:37 AM) *
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Nov 17 2010, 08:35 AM) *
Letting mages cast through walls basically makes them unhittable, unstoppable, unkillable gods, so any interpretation which allows that is right out.
Again: I totally agree with you regarding the balance maintaining reasoning. Yes it is an abstraction, yes, magic has no parallel in real life. My question has nothing to do with "game applied physical explanations" but by RAW.

<snip>

Now, I deffinitely agree with you that if the answer to this is positive I'd GM it into submission saying: "No, mages cannot use it like that because I say so." Then I'll try to come up with a fluffy explanation so the game is enriched.

But, by RAW... Am I wrong?


It doesn't look like that's explicitly wrong by SR4 RAW but in SR3 there was this curiosity:

QUOTE (SR3 FAQ)
If you cast Invisibility on a wall, can you then cast spells at targets on the other side since line of sight is no longer obstructed, while still receiving cover from the wall from bullets?

Yes. If you successfully cast Invisibility on a wall (keep in mind that the Force of the spell must be equal to or greater than half the wall's Object Resistance), then it no longer blocks LOS and you can cast spells through it (except for elemental manipulations, which will still hit the wall). Likewise, the invisible wall will not provide cover from any ranged attacks (unless the attacker resists the spell's effect), though it will provide an armor bonus, since the bullets must still pass through the wall.


http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/sr3faq.shtml

No mention of that in the SR4 FAQ though.
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Yerameyahu
post Dec 16 2010, 03:01 AM
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Yes, they're clearly wrong. There should be an overriding rule that you can't gain LOS through any physical object, period. After all, glass doesn't even work. Yes, the except to this is Mage Sigh optics, but screw it, let that be an exception. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Dahrken
post Dec 16 2010, 06:54 AM
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If I'm not mistaken glass, as well as anything that is transparent enough to allow you to see the target allow the casting of direct spells (like Stunbolt) on it, there is even some fluff about that's why many vehicules and buildings in SR have heavily tinted/mirrored windows.

Indirect damage spell would hit the obstruction and produce their effect there.
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Ramorta
post Dec 16 2010, 01:01 PM
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Just to throw another wrench into the mix. What happens if you have natural ultrasound? (I'm looking at you SURGE)
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Seth
post Dec 16 2010, 01:19 PM
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This link (mentioned above...thanks) thoroughly covers off the question about radar and sonar. The thread is complete with flame wars, getting writers involved, rows and did I mention the flame wars?

The answer to "can I use radar or sonar or ultrasound or other wierd tech thing that isnt sight" is no.

I even have some fluff for you to explain why:

Sight works as follows:
A photon leaves the light source and reflects from an object. The properties of that object affect the light significantly. The photon bounces into your eye. The result is a 2D map of the world, and we use a second eye, and the necessary focusing of the lens to give us pseudo 3D. The eye works on cells detecting photons, and each photon is directly related to object.

Radar and Sonar work differently, they work by time of flight and the important information about the destination object is how far away it is. This needs to get turned through frighteningly complex maths into 2 fake images that fake up have stereo images, and focusing of the lens. (If anyone wants to know just how complex go look up 2 D fourier equations). Importantly the fake photons that the eye is seeing have almost nothing to do with the photons that actually arrived, and are instead creations created in the users brain. All attempts to target these result sadly in the users brain being targeted.

Obviously the corporations are working frantically on how to get more and more penetrating photons that work like sight, but sadly such projects are still experimental...although they would make excellent shadowrun targets to steal or destroy that tech or the people working on it.
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Brainpiercing7.6...
post Dec 16 2010, 02:25 PM
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If you were to provide a special neural connection, you could also patch radar directly into the brain, and translate it into real biological sensory information. Which means it's as good as any other sense. As of now, that's not what happens, but...

IMHO I would dig out the old D&D mechanic of Line of Effect: If there is a clear line between you and the target for the spell to travel, then it works. If the line is obstructed, then it doesn't. In SR, you reputedly target a creature's aura with mana spells, but while using physical sight, you can't see that. You just need to know that the target is there, and for some obscure reason you need to use a natural sense.
[ Spoiler ]

If you were now to use radar to locate your target, for example in total darkness or thick (thermal) fog, then you could still target it with your cyber-radar. But if there were a wall, then line of effect would be broken, and the spell fizzles. Glass breaks this rule, as glass somehow allows you to target through it - in spite of being opaque in astral vision.

Physical spells in any case would hit the barrier, and either discharge or fizzle, too.

YES, I know this isn't RAW, but I sometimes think it would be good if RPG-writers didn't try to reinvent the wheel every time...

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