When a mage undergoes cybersurgery and replaces his eyes with cyberones, he can target spells using the mods those puppets have. Thermographic and low light vision, then are assumed as antural vision for targeting spells...

What happens if he gets a radar mod? Is that visual? Is it not? Can the mage then target spells through walls?

I recall reading on here recently that the answer to that is no. Don't recall the thread unfortunately.

Sanity check: would allowing a mage to cast spells through solid walls make him even more brokenly overpowered than he already is? Yes. Yes, it would. Therefore, no. No, he can't.

Sanity check: I deffinitely agree with you on all those levels. The thing is if that conclusion is supported by RAW. If its not, then I'd simply house rule it saying that no, wall negating magic is not going to happen in /my/ game.

I tried looking in the forums too, but couldn't find anything of the sort...

And extending the query, what sensory augmentations would qualify for LOS when targeting spells?

AND the radar isn't a a standart senseware like eyes or ears... you still have to "mentally read" it. It is just a sensor IN your body with DNI.

So no... i don't think you can cast through it.

The radar cyberware has to translate the radar signals into electrical impulses so your brain can understand them. Electronic translations = No LOS for you. Think of radar as being like electronic binoculars. There is signal translation so you cannot use them to get magical LOS. Optical binoculars you can however.

Cyber eyes work because they are outputting the same signalling that your body uses (not to mention that you are exchanging a natural sense for a cyber one that is the same otherwise). Metahumans don't have natural radar.

Interesting quote from the search-fu:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...mp;#entry641977

Sorry, but I am not convinced by this argument.

No human has thermographic vision nor vision magnification. But both qualify for LOS when buying cybereyes because they are sight based and teh mage paid the essence cost, hence assumed to be natural from then on.

Now, is the radar sight based?

If so, why wouldn't it be analogous to thermographic, low-light or vision magnification?

How about Bioware thermosense organs?
How about echolocation?

Because no metahuman has natural ultrasound or radar vision. Logic is not important.

Thermosense and echolocation can be used for LOS, but they're pretty crappy.

As one of the guys I play BattleTech once said to me, "You're doing that reality thing again. Stop it." Shadowrun's LOS rules are an abstraction, necessarily so. No, they don't make sense "logically." That couldn't possibly matter less. What matters is if any given interpretation unbalances the game (moreso than it already is). Letting mages cast through walls basically makes them unhittable, unstoppable, unkillable gods, so any interpretation which allows that is right out.

The big difference is that thermographic vision is translated directly into your vision. Radar and ultrasound are converted into topological maps - in other words, the computer draws a picture for you. So it isn't really an actual sense, visual or otherwise.

Again: I totally agree with you regarding the balance maintaining reasoning. Yes it is an abstraction, yes, magic has no parallel in real life. My question has nothing to do with "game applied physical explanations" but by RAW.

In syllogistic form my argument goes like this:

Visual cyberenhancements are valid as a LOS targetting systems for spells.
Radar sensor cyberware is a visual cyberenhancement.
Radar sensors are a valid LOS targetting system for spells.

Now, I deffinitely agree with you that if the answer to this is positive I'd GM it into submission saying: "No, mages cannot use it like that because I say so." Then I'll try to come up with a fluffy explanation so the game is enriched.

But, by RAW... Am I wrong?



Now the topological argument is very good to support the denial to use radar -or ultrasound, for that matter- as a way to target a spell by LOS. It denies the affirmation that radar is in any way a visual enhancement, but rather a very different way of sensing stuff translated into visual form.

It breaks down one of the premises required for the conclusion.

It's the difference between senses and sensors, a distinction that SR4 uses (often without clarity).

This is where your line of reasoning fails, as radar isn't a visual enchament.
It head ware that provides you with a picture of the surrounding area.
Did you totally miss the quote for the line developer of the game explaining all of that. If you did it's in the post 7.

Ultrasound shouldn't be a visual enhancement, either, even though it falls under that category for external gear. It's clearly a sensor, just like radar.

As it's an external gear its category doesn't really matter as mage can't get LOS with it anyway, what with it being an external piece of gear.

Sure, I'm just making a side note: the writers erred and jammed Ultrasound into the Visual Enhancement category (as if you add it to a camera), instead of the Sensor category (which it clearly is).

The spell "Farsight???" also gives a clear vision through walls but does not count as LOS (spell description says so), so it wouldn make sense to target spells via radar...

Just to muddle the waters:


There's a lot of contradictions and handwaving involved with targeting spells. Rather far-fetched explanations are sought to come up with a difference between cybereye thermographic vision and ultrasound "sight". The explanations often make little scientific sense, but they often serve to justify rules to the effect that you can't cast through walls. I doubt people think using ultrasound instead of thermographics to target people is really overpowered. The visibility modifiers are roughly the same, but they circumvent different sorts of concealment. But I expect almost evryone to agree casting through walls would be overpowered.

It doesn't look like that's explicitly wrong by SR4 RAW but in SR3 there was this curiosity:



http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/sr3faq.shtml

No mention of that in the SR4 FAQ though.

Yes, they're clearly wrong. There should be an overriding rule that you can't gain LOS through any physical object, period. After all, glass doesn't even work. Yes, the except to this is Mage Sigh optics, but screw it, let that be an exception.

If I'm not mistaken glass, as well as anything that is transparent enough to allow you to see the target allow the casting of direct spells (like Stunbolt) on it, there is even some fluff about that's why many vehicules and buildings in SR have heavily tinted/mirrored windows.

Indirect damage spell would hit the obstruction and produce their effect there.

Just to throw another wrench into the mix. What happens if you have natural ultrasound? (I'm looking at you SURGE)

This link (mentioned above...thanks) thoroughly covers off the question about radar and sonar. The thread is complete with flame wars, getting writers involved, rows and did I mention the flame wars?

The answer to "can I use radar or sonar or ultrasound or other wierd tech thing that isnt sight" is no.

I even have some fluff for you to explain why:

Sight works as follows:
A photon leaves the light source and reflects from an object. The properties of that object affect the light significantly. The photon bounces into your eye. The result is a 2D map of the world, and we use a second eye, and the necessary focusing of the lens to give us pseudo 3D. The eye works on cells detecting photons, and each photon is directly related to object.

Radar and Sonar work differently, they work by time of flight and the important information about the destination object is how far away it is. This needs to get turned through frighteningly complex maths into 2 fake images that fake up have stereo images, and focusing of the lens. (If anyone wants to know just how complex go look up 2 D fourier equations). Importantly the fake photons that the eye is seeing have almost nothing to do with the photons that actually arrived, and are instead creations created in the users brain. All attempts to target these result sadly in the users brain being targeted.

Obviously the corporations are working frantically on how to get more and more penetrating photons that work like sight, but sadly such projects are still experimental...although they would make excellent shadowrun targets to steal or destroy that tech or the people working on it.

If you were to provide a special neural connection, you could also patch radar directly into the brain, and translate it into real biological sensory information. Which means it's as good as any other sense. As of now, that's not what happens, but...

IMHO I would dig out the old D&D mechanic of Line of Effect: If there is a clear line between you and the target for the spell to travel, then it works. If the line is obstructed, then it doesn't. In SR, you reputedly target a creature's aura with mana spells, but while using physical sight, you can't see that. You just need to know that the target is there, and for some obscure reason you need to use a natural sense.

If you were now to use radar to locate your target, for example in total darkness or thick (thermal) fog, then you could still target it with your cyber-radar. But if there were a wall, then line of effect would be broken, and the spell fizzles. Glass breaks this rule, as glass somehow allows you to target through it - in spite of being opaque in astral vision.

Physical spells in any case would hit the barrier, and either discharge or fizzle, too.

YES, I know this isn't RAW, but I sometimes think it would be good if RPG-writers didn't try to reinvent the wheel every time...

That follows quite logically from the established convention of Essence and Magic being linked in the SR world. A DNI-link is never really part of you in that mystical sense, but cyber-eyes are. Radar Sense can be part of you in that way, but it's never really vision. If mediated through the eyes then it's a visual representation of different sensory data, and if it's dumped directly into the brain then it's a unique sense category. In neither case is it direct sight.

And in a way that's never quite explained, cybereyes aren't cameras. Cameras are a sensor, cybereyes are a sense. There's a sense/sensor distinction in the rules, albeit one that's very badly spelled out. Implanted sensors are just sensors stuck into your body; an implanted commlink (not a sensor either) doesn't give you the 'sense' of detecting wifi, for example.

A DNI link has been paid for by essence, unless you use external trodes.

And ok, even if it's patched into the brain, it might not be "sight", but there aren't that many differences. You get a representation of your surroundings via reflected radiation, that's basically the same as sight.

I maintain that there is no consistent logic to follow in this case - the rules are mostly arbitrary.

From the older editions any of the following things allowed for spellcasting LOS:

1. Seeing the target with normal eyes
2. Seeing the target with cyber eyes
3. Seeing the target with Low-light / Thermographic vision (natural or cyber)
4. Using Astral Perception to perceive the target
5. Using touch

Using drone cyber eyes fails because while you may have paid essence for them, they are disconnected from you while moving about. Even though you may have a radio feed, the visual input is being translated to radio and back to visual. You lose the mystical connection because of that.

SR1 & 2 were also clear about targeting through transparent objects. Spellcasting *WOULD* work normally. The catch was is you were using what we call direct spells, they worked fine. But if you were using an Indirect spell (like a fireball or flamethrower aka a spell that creates the effect which does the damage), the spell would STILL GO OFF. The bad part is that it would impact against whatever objects were in the way between you and the target.

The older editions explained that spellcasting was a matter of synchronizing your aura with that of your targets'. Your aura simply needs a way to obtain the target aura information so it could transfer mana into. Thus touch, sight, and Astral Perception worked well. You cannot exactly sniff, taste, or hear an aura. The newer editions skimp on the flavor and fluff that helps to provide context for the crunch.

They were also very explicit in that any electronic translation of the visual input resulted in loss of Magical LOS. Which is why a mage with an optical sniper scope was a beast. If he can see you, he's got you.

Based on the nature of how magic works in SR, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Magic requires Sight or Sight-like sensing because Humans (andd their variants) are primarily sight based lifeforms. That whole thing about belief shapes one's magic capability. Thus an insane mage *IS* in fact a scary thought.

It's a good thing that it didn't make it into the SR4 FAQ. Because it's just stupid, and indicates a total misunderstanding of what the Invisibility spell does.

Invisibility does not actually make a target invisible. It just creates an illusion of what's supposed to be on the other side of the target. Like putting a video screen on a wall displaying a rendering of what the installer thinks is on the other side of the wall.



-k

The DNI hasn't necessarily been paid for (e.g. trodes). But more importantly, datajack or commlink essence didn't pay for the sight. The camera feeding in the image isn't part of the character's nature. In a fundamental sense, you're not seeing the target, the camera is and you're just seeing what the camera tells you it sees. "Functionally really quite similar to sight" also doesn't cut it when we're talking about the way Magic works in SR. It has to be Sight with no footnotes or caveats when we're talking about The True Metaphysical Nature Of Things.

Humans don't normally have tails. If an awakened human character pays essence to install a cybertail, can it deliver Touch spells? If so, what (functionally) is the difference between doing so and installing a datajack at the tailbone and connecting a detachable mechadendrite to it?


On its journey it could be refracted by prisms, reflected by mirrors, pass through optical conductors (diamond, glass, water, fishtanks, fibreoptics, magesight goggles), etc. and in doing so, many of its brethren photons will be deflected, reflected, absorbed, etc. but some will arrive at the viewer's eye - and that's enough.


Is glass always opaque on the astral? I thought the astral is all about intention and purpose. A one-way mirrored glass window's purpose is to allow viewers to see through it in only one direction: that happens by physics in the physical plane and by intention on the astral. A regular transparent window's purpose is to allow light and vision to pass relatively unhindered in both directions: that happens by physics in the physical plane and (unless I'm mistaken) by intention on the astral.


Well, I wouldn't go that far. The FAQ is more official than opinion. Personally, I run invisibility more like a Somebody Else's Problem field. The SR3FAQ treats Invisibility more like making a defined solid object optically conductive. If that's how it is/was supposed to work, I don't assert that's stupid. I just don't run it that way.

Yes, Glass is ALWAYS opaque on the astral, it is, for all intents and purposes, a wall... Physics has no impct on the astral at all...

Yeah, sorry if my earlier slip confused that issue.

I too run it as a SEPF. Given recent advances in meta-materials though, I don't see why this spell cannot turn the surface of the runners bodies into a meta-material. It would of course mean that all the light be refracted around the runner...so the runner would be blind.

Invisibility would have to change to a Manipulation Spell, though.

This is why I mentioned the problem with that entry in the SR3 FAQ. It was just flat out wrong, as it related to the rules as written. Invisibility even in 3rd edition was an Illusion, not a Manipulation. It's a projection of invisibility, not actual invisibility.

Like I said earlier, like a trid hologram of empty space overlaying the target.

This of course has it's own issues, like what if the caster doesn't know what is supposed to be on the far side of the target?

I know a lot of folks that just houseruled it to be Manipulation. Avoided a lot of logic problems.



-k

I agree that physics does not apply at all to the astral plane. If you think I suggested otherwise, feel free to re-read my earlier post.

Is that the passage (emphasis mine) that prevents astral visibility through optically transparent substances? In the past I've gone with the following (I'm much more familiar with SR3, mea culpa):



Any views on the cybertail question?

One important thing to mention:
magic allways affects the whole.
so you can't make a single wall of a building invisible.
you'd have to make the whole building invisible.
and then we get to such fun things like:
if i am inside, can i now be seen from the outside?
can i now see everything else inside?
can i still see doors/stairs and the such?
if i am outside, can i now see everything inside?
if i can now see everything inside, then why can i not see stuff in pockets of people i make invisible?

Fluff: For reasons not completely understood by researchers, only touch and vision work to establish the mystical connection needed for spell targeting.

Game Balance: The designers do not want Ultrasound or Radar to be used for magical targeting.

Past editions had some interesting attempts at explaining why Ultrasound and Radar didn't work. But that way lies danger since for every attempt to rationalize magic the way the designers want, players come back with "yeah, but..."

So in Fourth Edition they made Ultrasound and Radar Headware not Eyeware. So the simple RAW & RAI answer is:
You can target spells at things you can touch or see with your eyes (and implanted cybereyes in your body are "yours"). Since Ultrasound and Radar cyberware are not part of your eyes they do not work for spell targeting.

P.S. The reason that Ultrasound and Radar are described like vision, and even have modifiers on perception tables, is because for everything except spell targeting that is by far the easiest thing to do.

Note also that, as I understand it, either Ultrasound or Radar can be used to detect subjects that then may be hit indirectly with certain spells, so long as the subject is withing an area effected by the spell, this generally applies to elemental spells.

I think that sums it up pretty well. It's a game balance decision; the fluff used to justify it is about a solid as Star Trek physics.

Which I'm fine with. It's good to make this decision from a game-balance perspective first. But let's stop the hypocrisy of saying it makes solid sense as fluff; it doesn't. It takes a lot of handwavium to make work.

Based on my metaphysical reasoning, using a cybertail for Touch doesn't bother me. The essence is paid and now the tail in question is a part of the true nature of the character. The sensory data it is feeding in is truly touch and not just something like touch.

Except, of course, for the Turn to Goo and Turn to Stone spells. For them, it's somehow not part of your 'true nature'. Whoops!

Even the designers can't agree on this one, I recall the FAQ going back and forth on this over time.

Personally, I go with implants paid for with essence becoming part of "you". So any kind of shape change would include them.

Don't even get started on enchanting cyberware before implanting, either. Honestly, the only valid basis for the rules is, 'is it unbalancing?' Radar LOS is.

If it lets you see through walls? Then yes. In most other cases, radar isn't any better than thermographic. Only thermal smoke would really be different, but astral sight allows you to bypass that too.

Right, exactly. Radar for walls, Optic for glass (rare enough), and Astral Super-Do-Everything Sight for everything else. Oy.

Well, radar and ultrasound would have some minor advantages compared to astral sight; not having to spend an action to activate, and no penalties for interacting with the physical world, mostly.

Still, I don't think that's all that overpowered; you're paying Essence after all. As long as you insist that even radar won't let you spellcast through walls, I think it wouldn't really make such a big difference to let mages cast with radar/ultrasound. Radar and ultrasound still impose some visibility penalties after all.

Yes, the penalty of -4 dice in contrast to NO DICE, YOU CAN't . .

Also, no spirit bashing you in astral, where your mundane buddies cannot help you get rid of it.

Sure, astral sight isn't 100% broken. Just, y'know, 70%.

But, unrelated to the pure balance angle, I think it's important to maintain the sense/sensor distinction. That's just personal, but I do think that theme is important (after balance, heh).