Enemy Perception Rolls?, Need help on how to determine sucess on some perception rolls. Options

[Explosive Donut!]

I'm new to Shadow Run, and I have made my character stealth based. He has a sound supressor, which I noticed gives a -4 to enemy perception rolls on finding the shooter, but it never explained if there was something to be rolled against their perception in combat. Is nothing rolled against it? And if so, how is their success determined?

[Yerameyahu]

There are basic thresholds (including 'gunshot' and 'silenced gunshot', for all the sense that makes) given on the table called, IIRC, 'Perception Thresholds' in the core book. Perception tests must beat these thresholds, rolling a dice pool modified by factors such as the Suppressor's -4.

[Explosive Donut!]

Alright, thanks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

In the case of 'active' stealth (use of the Infiltration skill), it is more like an opposed roll.

[Karoline]

In the case of 'active' stealth (use of the Infiltration skill), it is more like an opposed roll.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) More like an opposed roll because it is an opposed roll?

[Yerameyahu]

How much more like can something be? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Mercer]

I used to have that argument all the time with a friend of mine about getting "more lost".

[mmmkay]

So normal gunfire is threshold 1, but silenced gunfire is threshold 2. So is the -4 modifier included in the upgrade of threshold from gunfire to silenced gunfire?

My guesses:

A) Silenced gunfire doesn't refer to using an external silencer (as opposed to internal, which affords a -6 modifier), but maybe it refers to muffling the gunshot with a pillow or something.

B) The threshold upgrade refers to a -4 threshold, based on the buying hits ratio. We observe that subtracting 4 is not the same as increasing threshold by 1 even if you buy hits, but I think this is considered for large enough dice pools where it doesn't matter.

What do you think?

[Karoline]

It is a bit odd. I'm inclined to think that the two stack. From what I know of gunfire, normal gunfire exceptionally loud, and a silenced gunshot is exceedingly not loud. I don't know that it is the movie 'pew' that you can barely hear in the same room, but there is a rather huge difference, and I don't know that a threshold change of 1, or a -4 on its own is quite enough to represent such a large change. So, instead of creating a massive DP penalty which increases the chances of people glitching and critical glitching, they combined a penalty and a higher threashold. Or it could be some sort of oversight, or it could be intended that you either use the table regularly, or make an infiltration roll with the penalty on the other person.

I'd personally go with the first option though. A threashold of 2 is exceedingly easy to manage regularly. I mean average int, hearing enhancement, and a couple points of perception and you can buy that many successes.

[mmmkay]

Well an actual shot from a silencer sounds nothing like the pew in movies. Google helped me on that one.

But on second though the threshold of 2 for a silenced gun does seem right, which likely means that the -4 is right on it's own. Hence I think the two don't stack and if someone was using an internal silencer you'd just have to note that an internal silencer perception test isn't the same as a threshold 2 perception test.

[Karoline]

Actually, judging from this video, silenced guns are actually very quiet. And this one is even more absurdly quiet, but the non silenced one seems to be kind quiet too.

[mmmkay]

Well you have to have a comparison, so I'd recommend listening to this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfmdrCdg77U

you get a comparison of a conversation (Threshold 2) and a silenced gun (Threshold 2). And they are comparable. So I think there is agreement.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

silenced pistols can be quite silent, but assault rifles pratically just muffle the sound so it is harder pinpoint the direction.

[Ramaloke]

Well, from what I was able to gather with a bit o research, if you want a super quiet gun then subsonic ammo is a must. Apparently, regardless of whether your have a silencer (which is more aptly named as a suppressor) you'll get a supersonic *crack* sound without the subsonic ammunition.

Here is a video of somebody firing off an Uzi using Subsonic Ammunition and a Silencer.

As we can see, very very quiet (also rather terrifying), you can hear un-silenced supersonic ammo being fired throughout the video and it gives a great comparison as to how loud it is.

Now Im thinking that a magician with ranks in Automatics with a Silence spell sustained would be very very scary in SR.

[Yerameyahu]

I presume that Karoline is right: Threshold bump + DP penalty, to avoid the already massive (when combining silencing mods) DP reduction. Honestly, if SR4 were a game that made real use of shifting Thresholds (glad it's not, personally), then Suppressor's -4 probably *should* simply be '+1 Threshold'.

[mmmkay]

Silencers are quiet, but they're not that quiet.

[Yerameyahu]

It's The Future™.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

It's The Future™.

with NERPS™.

[sabs]

I don't know. I like sliding threshholds.

Some things /should/ be +TN.

Like hearing a silenced shot, or seeing someone using chameleon suits.

[Karoline]

seeing someone using chameleon suits.

This should definitely not be a threshold, because that would ignore what skill the character already has at not being seen (AKA Infiltration).

That aside, I think the reason you generally see DP modifiers as opposed to threshold modifiers is 1. People would rather roll dice and let their good luck factor in than simply have set adjustments and 2. A modification to threshold doesn't help in an opposed test at all.

[Yerameyahu]

That's not TN, sabs, that's Threshold.

I agree: Thresholds should be used sparingly, and only in situations that won't have opposed tests. Threshold mods, doubly so.