Dragon PC Critique, Yes, Really, A Dragon. Options

[Ramaloke]

Well, thats not really true. So far the dragon PC I've posted has the following in Metahuman Form:

B 3 A 4 R 3 S 3 C 5 I 5 L 5 W 5 M 6 Edg 1 Ess 6

10 Dice for Spellcasting & Counterspelling (and 3 Spells aside from Metahuman Form)
10 Dice for Resisting Drain
9 Dice for Summoning and Binding (11 for Spirit of Man)
8 Dice for Soaking Damage
8 Dice for Assensing and Perception
6 Dice for Influence Group
5 Dice for Infiltraiton
5 Dice for Unarmed Combat
2 Dice for Dodging

10 Physical Damage Boxes and 11 Stun Damage Boxes.

Not too shabby, but nothing over the top. Yes, when she jumps into dragon form she'll be much more threatening... which means everybody would be trying to kill her, and it would expose her which is not something she wants to do, its like throwing up a beacon that says "Hey, Political Shitstorm, Land Here! Land Here!"

[Fortinbras]

I know you asked for folk not to comment on the concept, but rather on the build, so I'll respect your wishes and simply say I disagree.

I just thought that a dragon hacker would be far more interesting than a dragon magician because it poses so many challenges. Heck, dragons are built to be giant monsters with magic powers, so if one really had amnesia(That's funny. I don't remember getting amnesia.) and got it after the spell was cast on the sustaining focus, it presents a neat challage to have this guy walking around not knowing why he isn't as good as other hackers.
It also means that anyone in the group that wants to throw a fit because you are a dragon is going to be making an uphill argument because you obviously picked the absolute WORST class build for the guy.

I understand what you are trying to make, I just thought I'd throw out an alternative dragon character concept.

[Ramaloke]

I get the point it just seems counterproductive to intentionally build yourself into a liability for the party. They wont appreciate that and you wont be having any fun.

[Fortinbras]

A non min/maxed character isn't necessarily a liability. If it were we'd all play dragons.

[Draco18s]

A non min/maxed character isn't necessarily a liability. If it were we'd all play dragons.

Or trolls and elves.
(Trolls to punch people, elves to convince them that the trolls did in fact not punch them)

[Ramaloke]

No, a non minmaxed character is not a liability, but neither is a min/maxed one. This topic treads closely to Role Play versus Roll Play which isn't a discussion that ever turns out well. I'll just say this:

Its better to play to your strengths than play to your weaknesses. Just because you can do something doesn't mean its the best option for your character, and since your character is part of a group, it doesn't mean it's the best option for your group either.

As far as the balance goes, the above stat grouping would cost an elf magician 285 BP, another 15 for the Magician Quality and you still have 100 BP to spend, 135 with negative qualities. So I'm basically paying 25 BP extra for the privilege of being a dragon. Yes, there are some goodies I get for that extra 25 BP, but it ends up being relatively well balanced IMO. In metahuman form the only dragon abilities I get to keep would be Dual Natured (Upsides and Downsides) and Dragonspeech... maybe mystic hardened armor 8, but certainly not normal hardened armor 8.

Remember that a voodoo tradition magician could be rolling around with those stats +6 to physical and Hardened Armor 12 pretty easily.

-edit-

And remember, Dragonform has its own downsides, Dragons are huge. That firefight in the hallway? That cramped Alleyway? That room full of servers? None of those are going to be dragon sized. I mean, aside from the political fallout of raiding a lab in dragonform, theres the impracticality of it as well.

-edit 2-

Just dug into the ancient files for the info on dragon sizes; here is what I found.

The head and body of an eastern dragon is 15 meters long, with a height at the shoulder of 2 meters, and another 15 meters of tail. All told, this dragon weighs in at 7,500 kilograms.

Thats 30 Meters long.

Also:

A non min/maxed character isn't necessarily a liability. If it were we'd all play dragons.

Is it just me or does the tone of this come off as snarky and insulting?

[KarmaInferno]

A character with weaknesses, even a lot of them, is not a liability to a group if it has corresponding strengths to compensate.

I mean, I'm playing a character with a completely magic-based race, as a drone rigger. Not only that, but one with with scary high dice pools for the drone rigging. The character is built totally against type but it has strengths to compensate for the weaknesses.



-k

[Starmage21]

No, a non minmaxed character is not a liability, but neither is a min/maxed one. This topic treads closely to Role Play versus Roll Play which isn't a discussion that ever turns out well. I'll just say this:

Its better to play to your strengths than play to your weaknesses. Just because you can do something doesn't mean its the best option for your character, and since your character is part of a group, it doesn't mean it's the best option for your group either.

As far as the balance goes, the above stat grouping would cost an elf magician 285 BP, another 15 for the Magician Quality and you still have 100 BP to spend, 135 with negative qualities. So I'm basically paying 25 BP extra for the privilege of being a dragon. Yes, there are some goodies I get for that extra 25 BP, but it ends up being relatively well balanced IMO. In metahuman form the only dragon abilities I get to keep would be Dual Natured (Upsides and Downsides) and Dragonspeech... maybe mystic hardened armor 8, but certainly not normal hardened armor 8.

Remember that a voodoo tradition magician could be rolling around with those stats +6 to physical and Hardened Armor 12 pretty easily.

-edit-

And remember, Dragonform has its own downsides, Dragons are huge. That firefight in the hallway? That cramped Alleyway? That room full of servers? None of those are going to be dragon sized. I mean, aside from the political fallout of raiding a lab in dragonform, theres the impracticality of it as well.

-edit 2-

Just dug into the ancient files for the info on dragon sizes; here is what I found.



Thats 30 Meters long.

6ft at the shoulder isnt too big. It's the length that's going to make him look large. Kinda inspires a more iguana-like appearance in a western dragon, when I've always imagined them to have a more feline structure and posture.

[Ramaloke]

Yeah, and I was unable to find any figures on the width of their chest, if anybody had any info on that I'd be interested in what you could find.

[Laodicea]

My first post in this thread was a joke. I guess I just don't see the point of using the april fools rules. The rules in RC for a dracoform character are fine. Why not use them? You get a similar result, without ridiculously high base attributes. Even for an "Epic" style campaign, I think it's more appropriate to use the RC dracoform rules, if you're playing as a member of a team.

[Ramaloke]

The point is a drake =/= a dragon. Drakes are cool, dragons are cooler. Since I'm trying to model a young dragon I've been thinking of lowering the Body and Strength in dragon form by a reasonable amount. Three for body, down to 9, and ten for strength, down to 20.

[Draco18s]

6ft at the shoulder isnt too big. It's the length that's going to make him look large. Kinda inspires a more iguana-like appearance in a western dragon, when I've always imagined them to have a more feline structure and posture.

That was stats for an oriental dragon, not an occidental one (westerns do have a more cat-like structure and posture).

Also, mind, 6 foot at the shoulder puts them on par with (large) horses in terms of height.* Their head sticks up above that (assuming it's not crouching).

*Horses are actually only about 5 foot at the shoulder, give or take a few inches depending on build and breed. So we're talking a snake on legs that is taller than a horse and 30 feet long. That's a lot of meat.

[Ramaloke]

Yep, which illustrates my point about Dragon form being utterly impractical for most runs. If you have to break through the wall like the Kool-Aid man to get into the room there's not going to be much stealth, and if you take up the whole width of the door while doing so you are a wonderful target.

[Draco18s]

Yep, which illustrates my point about Dragon form being utterly impractical for most runs. If you have to break through the wall like the Kool-Aid man to get into the room there's not going to be much stealth, and if you take up the whole width of the door while doing so you are a wonderful target.

To quote an old friend of mine:

"Scales protect many times better than flesh, but ironically, as long as
I wear this flesh I am safe, whereas if I were to show my true self I
would be vulnerable..."

[Ramaloke]

I put up a Karmagen version for comparison's sake. More well rounded. Also it has 2 initiations for Masking and Aura Masking.

[Starmage21]

Yep, which illustrates my point about Dragon form being utterly impractical for most runs. If you have to break through the wall like the Kool-Aid man to get into the room there's not going to be much stealth, and if you take up the whole width of the door while doing so you are a wonderful target.

I totally just imagined a red-scaled oriental dragon with a pot-belly busting through a wall roaring in a fashion that sounds like "oh yeah!"

[Translucent Wolf]

Holding a pitcher.

[Axe]

The pitcher, of course, is his spell focus for Toxic Wave.

[Starmage21]

Just to be add something to the conversation:

Dragons as PCs would be the most fun in a pink mohawk styled game, where you could use either your human shapeshange spell and your true form as the situation requires.

Black Trenchcoat games are going to revolve around how long you can keep your nature a secret. After it gets out, you basically have to retire your character, or all your enemies have a multi-million nuyen reasons to hunt you actively instead of passively.

[Ramaloke]

It depends greatly on how far you get before you are exposed. The metahuman spell would let you change your outward appearance, nothing says that you have to assume the exact same form each time you cast it. If you can get Aura Masking from a spirit or from initiation you'd be able to hide quite effectively as long as you survived long enough to take another form.

[Yerameyahu]

What are the chances of being mistaken for a drake? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ramaloke]

Nil, I'd say, a drake is not nearly as big as a full dracoform, and that size difference would show up in the astral.

[Ryu]

Well, thats not really true. So far the dragon PC I've posted has the following in Metahuman Form:

B 3 A 4 R 3 S 3 C 5 I 5 L 5 W 5 M 6 Edg 1 Ess 6

10 Dice for Spellcasting & Counterspelling (and 3 Spells aside from Metahuman Form)
10 Dice for Resisting Drain
9 Dice for Summoning and Binding (11 for Spirit of Man)
8 Dice for Soaking Damage
8 Dice for Assensing and Perception
6 Dice for Influence Group
5 Dice for Infiltraiton
5 Dice for Unarmed Combat
2 Dice for Dodging

10 Physical Damage Boxes and 11 Stun Damage Boxes.

Not too shabby, but nothing over the top. Yes, when she jumps into dragon form she'll be much more threatening... which means everybody would be trying to kill her, and it would expose her which is not something she wants to do, its like throwing up a beacon that says "Hey, Political Shitstorm, Land Here! Land Here!"

These stats are another reason to prefer pink mowhawk games, yet there is little to be said about the coolness factor of getting to play a dragon. Go drake if your comrades prefer the trenchcoat way, or at least get more spells at the cost of your Influence and Unarmed Combat.

[Ramaloke]

Those dice pools include ability modifiers. If I were to lower either unarmed combat or influence Id loose two dice due to defaulting.

[Ryu]

I would prefer to have more spells, and therefore more swiss-army-knife utility, over two dice that won´t matter in the end on two common tests. We tend to end on the munchkin side of things, and a dp 6 will not get you anywhere relevant. We also tend to be short on players recently.