War, HUH! It's out on pdf Options

[InfinityzeN]

The book is ok, but if it gets published the same as it is in the PDF you might be better off waiting until the second printing. There are lots of little errors and some of the charts are missing entries.

There are also things like not telling you which skill Battle Rifles use. Technically they are Sporting Rifles with larger ammo capacity and burst fire (which is what a battle rifle is IRL also). In my game, I'm going to go with the Long Arms skill for them, until a change to the PDF comes out.

The addition of AP Flechette ammo adds an interesting twist to my game, since I actually have players who use shotguns for the spread effect of shot rounds on unarmored/lightly armored targets. Have to figure out how this will effect the varies spread settings on a shotgun, but most likely I'll go with reducing the stated ap modifier by 5 (Narrow +2DV, +0 AP/Medium +0DV, +2AP/Wide -2DV, +4AP). A full-auto shotgun, combined with a smartlink to change the choke on the fly, and ap shot would work wonders for clearing out mass fleshy targets. Think I'll cut AP Shot rounds price to half that of AP flechettes. This will make them far more expensive than normal shot rounds ($8 a round rather than $2 a round).

[Stahlseele]

I don't consider specific rules from the book to be "information to use to figure out if a book is worth buying", but I was only teasing in the first place.

ah, 'kay, didn't get it.

[kzt]

The punchline: There is no such thing as "High Velocity ammunition" – only with the Arsenal reference you can guess that whoever wrote that meant HV weapons… and since we are guessing already, we might as well guess that said person didn't bother too much with reading the actual rules.

Is it just me, or is it fairly amusing that we are still having issues with the fact that old-time SR developers didn't understand what the word "velocity" means?

[Stahlseele]

Is it just me, or is it fairly amusing that we are still having issues with the fact that old-time SR developers didn't understand what the word "velocity" means?

just you ^^
it'd be funny if it wasn't sad . .
and what do you mean when you say old time sr developers?
have you looked at the names in the book? O.o

[Critias]

just you ^^
it'd be funny if it wasn't sad . .
and what do you mean when you say old time sr developers?
have you looked at the names in the book? O.o

The folks working on current SR products are, at least partially, stuck working within the confines of prior product -- in this case, the use of "High Velocity" as a descriptor of a certain class of firearm. You either change the nomenclature, or keep working within it as best you can. In this instance, it looks like they decided to try and work within it as best they can.

[Stahlseele]

*nods*
looks like it.

[InfinityzeN]

One thing that dorks me off about the "high velocity" battle rifle is it does not suffer from the drawback of every other "high velocity" weapon, which is lower base damage.

[Stahlseele]

Does it get, by raw, any benefits of the HV stuff?
seeing how it does not have full auto firing mode?
or is the only mention of hv stuff in the weapon fluff and thus irrelevant?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

One thing that dorks me off about the "high velocity" battle rifle is it does not suffer from the drawback of every other "high velocity" weapon, which is lower base damage.

That drawback is a relict from SR1/2 – any weapon retrofitted into a HV weapon did not suffered that problem since SR3.

[Sengir]

Well, I gave it a read and I think this section sums up what I dislike quite well. Bear in mind that this is from the Game Information section, not some in-character description by a supersticious villager:

WORK BRINGS FREEDOM
Oswiecim was under a spiritual barrier for a number of years. Oswiecim was home to Auschwitz-Birkenau, the most well known of the Nazi party’s concentration camps. During the Holocaust, 1.1 million people died within its walls. This led it to become one of the most haunted places on the planet. Ghosts of all shapes and sizes dwelled within, frightening out or murdering all residents of Oswiecim. Because of the sheer magnitude of the haunting, a great number of other things found home there. For the inclined occult investigator, Auschwitz-Birkenau is a treasure trove. It’s also a remarkably dangerous trap. Earlier this year, an entrepreneur named Tetsuo Shuumatsu hired a cabal of sorcerers, charging them with the removal of the barrier. He’s an arms dealer, one who specializes in the weapons necessary to take down ghosts. With such an infestation of ghosts, only a silly buyer would hesitate to pay top dollar for his wares. His greed opened this treasure trove to the public, allowing those without a sense of self-preservation to have a unique opportunity to drudge for necromantic artifacts.
The town proper is effectively still a town, albeit a town inhabited by the angry and hungry dead.  They don’t take kindly to the living, but aren’t necessarily hostile unless provoked. Many are simply living out echoes of their past existences as harmless villagers.

Magic domes around towns. Looters who pry open The Forbidden Tomb™. Ghosts - not pissed or twisted spirits, but actual ghosts. Treasures which are guarded by the ghosts, because evil, haunted dungeons always contain evil, haunted artifacts. Fucking NECROMATIC artifacts. And the living dead.
While all of this would work fine in a generic horror setting, it has NOTHING to do with Shadowrun. The author obviously had no idea of shadowrun magic and how it deals with (un)death - which I can't blame the author for, probably the closest thing to SR he knew until a couple of months ago were the Manei Domini (cybered badass fraction from CBT). Yet you'd think there is an editor who actually reads what the freelancers submit and tells them "sorry, wrong universe"...

Also, this is Auschwitz, the symbol for something even Nazis think is so evil that they deny its existence. Using this subject in fiction requires a certain judicious touch, lest you want to look like going for the cheap shock value (bad style, but ultimately nothing serious), or alert the usual busybodies (really bad). So labeling a section about a potential job in Auschwitz "Arbeit macht Frei" is probably the dumbest section heading I've read in years. Including the guy who used full-page images as chapter headings and then auto-generated a TOC

[Orca]

So, does War! cover large/larger scale combat, any changes to the vehicle rules, or stuff related to war such as supply lines, propaganda, training etc?

I get that it has an adventure, a city description and some hardware and powers, just wondering if it covered any of the above.

Oh, and hi all.

This post has been edited by Orca: Dec 16 2010, 01:51 AM

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

So, does War! cover large/larger scale combat, any changes to the vehicle rules, or stuff related to war such as supply lines, propaganda, training etc?

I get that it has an adventure, a city description and some hardware and powers, just wondering if it covered any of the above.

Oh, and hi all.

It does have stuff about large scale combat, supply lines, propaganda, morale, etc.
It has new rules for vehicle combat, such as air combat, new rules for supressive fire, new gear, etc.
I didn't finish reading the book, but so far, I like it.
Also, 1.2 billions nuyen for a doomsday orbital plataform is, no pun intended, priceless.

[AppliedCheese]

That's it? really? 1.2 B? Given the megas undoubtedly bring in incomes in the hundreds of billions to trillions, that seems like you would end up having a doomsday arms race...

[Yerameyahu]

We can't allow there to be a deathsat gap!

[Jareth Valar]

Well, I gave it a read and I think this section sums up what I dislike quite well. Bear in mind that this is from the Game Information section, not some in-character description by a supersticious villager: <SNIP>

OK, while I agree about Auschwitz needing to be treated with, at least, a modicum of respect, one thing we have to remember about the Shadowrun world. It's a progressive world.

I have been playing/running Shadowrun since '89, and I have just recently changed over to 4th. (stuck in curmudgeon mode about the drastic change). I like 4th now, though I wasn't always open to the thought of change. And allot of changes have been made since then, both in the world and magic, what was impossible to what is possible.

One thing comes to mind right off was back in 3rd with the addition of Astral Rifts, Shedim, etc. <del>I mean, for crying out loud, a Great Dragon's physical form crawled it's way out of an Astral Rift, show me THAT in the rules</del> (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) . (even if it was his astral form going to reclaim a body, still, after how many eons?) Also, before the closest thing we had to zombies was the Corpse Cadaver, now we have possessing spirits that animate the dead. "Wait a minute, spirits can't do that!" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) . But in Shadowrun the world is advancing it's understanding of itself and the designers are getting more and more leeway to play with things. While it was not possible in past rules/world view, what's to say that with the level of mana progressing that things like this can't exist? The world is changing, and no-one really knows how far.

Now, I'm not necessarily saying I like the idea, or that it was inserted in the correct section (I would think it would have been in the NON-game info section myself). Assuming it was mis-sectioned, the ghosts could just be a new form of backgroundAlchera, strong enough to imprint weak spirits that wander into the area or from nearby metaplanes. Or a unique Mana warp or something.

That's how I always deal with the "in character posting"/shadowfile. The players can read all they want, but that doesn't make it truth.

I think it was misplaced in the wrong section myself.

<edit>
Added about Ghostwalker

Rechecked my facts on Ghostwalker - it was astral form. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif) . Never ran Denver, so never had to deal.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I mean, for crying out loud, a Great Dragon's physical form crawled it's way out of an Astral Rift, show me THAT in the rules (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) .

If I recall correctly just its Astral Form passed throught the Rift, Ghostwalker picked its body somewhere along the way.
The amazing thing is that it didn't die after *Magic hours* away from the body.

[Jareth Valar]

If I recall correctly just its Astral Form passed throught the Rift, Ghostwalker picked its body somewhere along the way.
The amazing thing is that it didn't die after *Magic hours* away from the body.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif)

Yeah, I was trying to edit my post when my Comlink hiccuped. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I never really got into Denver (never really appealed to my players), but I agree, Magic in hours away from body, even considering it might be Dragon Magic, or something, he has been away from his body for how long? It's possible he was always around (re-awakened quietly.....OK, this is Ghostwalker, nevermind) and was on an astral quest and just "found his way through", but that sound just as unlikely.

[kzt]

The folks working on current SR products are, at least partially, stuck working within the confines of prior product -- in this case, the use of "High Velocity" as a descriptor of a certain class of firearm. You either change the nomenclature, or keep working within it as best you can. In this instance, it looks like they decided to try and work within it as best they can.

That's all well and good, but wouldn't it be kind of nice if someone would tell the new writers about these thing? I don't know, maybe guy who accepts the piece for publication? Unless of course he doesn't understand the setting either.

[hermit]

This must be the shittiest SR release ever, including some really awful German stuff. THe rules heavily unbalance the game (SoftWeave), the book is badly written, the setting boring and not in the least taking into account that it is to cover a War, not a slightly deranged city somewhere in former Colombia, and then there's the tons of errors (hint: it's carnivorous, not carniverous, and the year is 2010, not 2011, and that's just one page) ... what the fuck.

Hint: "Himmelsschmiede" in Target: Wastelands was ok. "Himmelhammer" in War! – not so much.

I am starting to think someone pulled their leg with the German names. The Wasserträger sub (FYI, 'Wasserträger' is a derogative term for an intern or a low-level lickspittle) and the Glucke carrier ('Glucke' usually is a term for an overprotective, aging and usually overweight mother) are too hilarious to be the work of an American tapping his fingers into a dictionary at random (which is what the Jagdpferd and Vogelhund sounds like).

[Grinder]

Well, I gave it a read and I think this section sums up what I dislike quite well. Bear in mind that this is from the Game Information section, not some in-character description by a supersticious villager:

WORK BRINGS FREEDOM
Oswiecim was under a spiritual barrier for a number of years. Oswiecim was home to Auschwitz-Birkenau, the most well known of the Nazi party’s concentration camps. During the Holocaust, 1.1 million people died within its walls. This led it to become one of the most haunted places on the planet. Ghosts of all shapes and sizes dwelled within, frightening out or murdering all residents of Oswiecim. Because of the sheer magnitude of the haunting, a great number of other things found home there. For the inclined occult investigator, Auschwitz-Birkenau is a treasure trove. It’s also a remarkably dangerous trap. Earlier this year, an entrepreneur named Tetsuo Shuumatsu hired a cabal of sorcerers, charging them with the removal of the barrier. He’s an arms dealer, one who specializes in the weapons necessary to take down ghosts. With such an infestation of ghosts, only a silly buyer would hesitate to pay top dollar for his wares. His greed opened this treasure trove to the public, allowing those without a sense of self-preservation to have a unique opportunity to drudge for necromantic artifacts.
The town proper is effectively still a town, albeit a town inhabited by the angry and hungry dead.  They don’t take kindly to the living, but aren’t necessarily hostile unless provoked. Many are simply living out echoes of their past existences as harmless villagers.

Magic domes around towns. Looters who pry open The Forbidden Tomb™. Ghosts - not pissed or twisted spirits, but actual ghosts. Treasures which are guarded by the ghosts, because evil, haunted dungeons always contain evil, haunted artifacts. Fucking NECROMATIC artifacts. And the living dead.
While all of this would work fine in a generic horror setting, it has NOTHING to do with Shadowrun. The author obviously had no idea of shadowrun magic and how it deals with (un)death - which I can't blame the author for, probably the closest thing to SR he knew until a couple of months ago were the Manei Domini (cybered badass fraction from CBT). Yet you'd think there is an editor who actually reads what the freelancers submit and tells them "sorry, wrong universe"...

Also, this is Auschwitz, the symbol for something even Nazis think is so evil that they deny its existence. Using this subject in fiction requires a certain judicious touch, lest you want to look like going for the cheap shock value (bad style, but ultimately nothing serious), or alert the usual busybodies (really bad). So labeling a section about a potential job in Auschwitz "Arbeit macht Frei" is probably the dumbest section heading I've read in years. Including the guy who used full-page images as chapter headings and then auto-generated a TOC

Agreed, that's total bullshit.

[hermit]

Oh yes. Apart from all the canon idiocy and general tastelessness, this comes close to violating the Volksverhetzungsgesetz. I sure hope Pegasus just ignores WAR and rather translates Seattle 2070. Even if it'd pale besides the splendid Berlin book.

which I can't blame the author for, probably the closest thing to SR he knew until a couple of months ago were the Manei Domini (cybered badass fraction from CBT).

Why can authors not be blamed for failing to do research? I can kind of see this for the Almanach, which was hamfisted and suffered from a very close deadline that had to be kept - but not here. Being a BT author is NO EXCUSE for not doing research.

[Daishi]

I'm just jumping around it so far, and it's not too bad. The general material has my interest, though Bogota specific info does seem a little excessive and uninteresting. The new stuff doesn't seem immediately broken, though I can understand others concerns and will think more about some of them. I do like seeing actual Leadership rules. A couple things that seemed missing to me in terms of gear that bug me at the moment: 1) Rules for Thor shots are cool, but it made me immediately think of spy satellites - which would be possibly applicable for the very high end runner teams 2) Dearth of cyberware - at the very least a implant variant of the Mark 74 Smartlink, 3) Still no rules for actually mounting Arsenal's Launch Weapons, just lots of weapon mounts for aircraft which I assume are supposed to solve it (but totally gimp the fantastically expensive Eagle-C in the process).

[hermit]

Check out SoftWeave armour for something quite unbalancing.

[Sengir]

this comes close to violating the Volksverhetzungsgesetz.

http://www.zentralrat-der-luden.org (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But thanks for proving my point: A lot of people get easily worked up when it comes to Auschwitz and the Holocaust in general. And no matter how justified you personally believe this sentiment to be, triggering it simply is a bad idea if you want to do business. Unless your business is something like the Chappelle Show, of course.

Why can authors not be blamed for failing to do research? I can kind of see this for the Almanach, which was hamfisted and suffered from a very close deadline that had to be kept - but not here. Being a BT author is NO EXCUSE for not doing research.

If you buy the wrong ingredients for a cake, who is to blame for the outcome? The seller of the ingredients, or the one who chose a buy iron filings instead of flour?



And to finally say something positive about the book: I like the gear section. Yes, the softweave armour and high-rating matrix gear sound like the "erratra via superior gear" thing first done with reflex triggers (or so I've been told, never played 1st Ed.), but IMO both is sensible "errata gear". And I'm going to abuse MRSI + drone rounds (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Maybe Pegasus will bundle this plus the two cash gear books in the pipeline in one convenient product and call it "Arsenal 2073".

[hermit]

But thanks for proving my point: A lot of people get easily worked up when it comes to Auschwitz and the Holocaust in general. And no matter how justified you personally believe this sentiment to be, triggering it simply is a bad idea if you want to do business. Unless your business is something like the Chappelle Show, of course.

I am not saying I am offended by it (it is tasteless and shows just how little the BT authors care about what they write about, or just how incompetent they are, but I can deal with that). I am saying our rather sensitive laws might be triggered (it was triggered by a crossed out swastika symbol that said "STOP NAZIS" after all). And since Pegasus is a publishing company, that could easily end them up in deep shit.

If you buy the wrong ingredients for a cake, who is to blame for the outcome? The seller of the ingredients, or the one who chose a buy iron filings instead of flour?

If a chef orders a cake baked, and the kichen boy burns it and fills it with nails instead of raisin cream, is this the chef's fault? Partly, sure, because he could have checked up on kitchen boy, but you cannot say the boy shouldn't know the basics of cake baking, working in a kitchen after all. The idea of distributing work is not to make those who do the work not liable for their own mistakes. While the Line Dev SHOULD have stopped this, the writer never should have WRITTEN it in the first place.

both is sensible "errata gear"

I agree with the Matrix gear (been playing with this as a house rule for quite some time now myself). I disagree with SoftWeave, which ENHANCES the indestructo-troll problems.

Maybe Pegasus will bundle this plus the two cash gear books in the pipeline in one convenient product and call it "Arsenal 2073".

And dump the dull to moronic fluff in War. Probably the best course of action.