War, HUH! It's out on pdf Options

[Doc Chase]

I'm pretty sure those six words from me aren't to blame for the attitude he's showing, thanks. I'm sorry if I let a little snark slip into my response, but it's not like his initial question was exactly open and friendly, either.

I don't doubt it, but reading what you said apart from his subsequent response got my eyebrow up, and I'm neutral on the subject.

Reread this thread and the general attitude being shown in it, look at the vitriol even non-War writers are getting here, and ask yourself if you wouldn't wonder why you bothered, too, okay? It's only natural for the official crew to hang out at the official forum (wouldn't it look pretty silly if DS got all the developer posts, and NOT the official forum? And we've all only got so much time a day to hang out on the internet, so it makes sense for that time to be dedicated primarily to the forum we're expected at)...but when the attitude is like the attitude's been here on DS of late, it makes even more sense to avoid the place and hang out at the official SR joint, instead, doesn't it?

I've kept a pretty close eye on the thread, because the book itself is in an area I have a vested interest in. I was willing to drop the $15 or so to see if it had any Caracas information in it (it didn't, and I was disappoint, but whatev), and I don't regret my SR book purchases. I enjoy the product. While I don't think the ducats I spend give me a say in how the books are written, I at least hope my suggestions and outright criticisms will get to the people who can effect change. It's one way I can at least attempt to help the company produce a better product.

However, you are correct. We are not the boss of you, the writer, though in the end we do buy the books so you get paid. We do not control where you go and lurk and post and talk SR. DS predates the current license holder, but it is not the official site. To me, that's fine - do as you please. Injecting your snark as you have was a bad move - you don't add accelerant to a fire unless you want to watch it burn.

I'm not defending War. I don't even have a copy of it myself, yet, because money's tight around the holidays and it's gonna have to wait 'till payday. It's clear some folks aren't happy with it...but if some folks here want the writers to hang out here again, maybe they could offer up some feedback that doesn't end with "LOLOL Battletech rejects derp derp derp."

As I recall, the first pages started that way - bad terms used, a lot of fluff on an area that many aren't interested in, and eye-popping ratings for milspec gear I recall we had a few threads' discussion on.

There will always be people who will use hyperbole, and people whose passion trumps reason. If people expect that nobody's paying attention, then they're going to say what they damn well feel.

Criticism is one thing, and I know -- once any of my stuff hits shelves -- I, at least, welcome it. I've never been shy about the stuff I wrote for Privateer Press, or Comfy Chair, or anyone else, and I'm going to welcome comments on my Shadowrun work, just as much. But when those comments consist of calling people scabs, rejects, and idiots, don't be surprised when people don't want to read it any more.

I haven't had any issue with what you've said, only how you've said it. I'm saving a full critique of this book until I'm done reading it - it hit the e-reader during finals week so I haven't been able to offer my full attention. As I said, the only reason to add accelarant to a fire is because you want to watch it burn.

[Sengir]

I have been playing/running Shadowrun since '89, and I have just recently changed over to 4th. (stuck in curmudgeon mode about the drastic change). I like 4th now, though I wasn't always open to the thought of change. And allot of changes have been made since then, both in the world and magic, what was impossible to what is possible.

Sure a few rule changes and all of that is probably reconcilable with canon. But the overall tone of it, from "spiritual barrier" and "cabal of sorcerers" to the [long sequence of beeps] idea of necromantic artifacts, just has nothing to with Shadowrun for me. By the way, that section is the intro for a mission to retrieve the favored scalpel of Eduard Wirths (real character). Said knife "was energized by the various ghosts passing by it, feeding o their death energies. At this point, it’s taken on a life of its own." and now it "only finds itself at home when flush with warm blood". Look, Lilarcor has an evil twin...

[Laughing One]

My question is, is anything broken as presented when compared not only to the RAW of previous books but the new rules in W! that modify the old RAW?

The most major broken thing I noticed so far is the new grenade rules.

If several grenades explode at the same area, you get to add half DV from each grenade after the first to the total DV of the first grenade.

Meaning, a full burst of 10 mini frag grenade from any automatic grenade launcher will give you 66(f) DV +5AP, plus hits (you can add them in now).

Something not as major is the new Slow spell. Gives you total immunity to bullets and any other kinetic force based attack (including Thor shots) with a single net hit, but at least theres OR and BC to balance it out.

At least theres wingsuits.

EDIT: I guess a thor shot weight more than 200kg, so nvm about that part.
and to clarify: theres some good stuffs too, like better rules for suppressing fire and leadership and such.

[hermit]

I understand you're ranting a bit to make yourself feel better, but do me a favor to take a second to calm down instead of just lashing out blindly. I'm not a developer, I'm not in charge of hiring and firing other writers, and I just said quite clearly that I didn't write anything for War!, so I'm not sure why you're so damned eager to pee in my general direction, okay? I will gladly let you know exactly what I've written of upcoming sourcebooks when they hit shelves, just like I'll gladly point you towards any of my posts or fiction pieces right here on DS, if you've got any more questions about me mistaking SR for any other game. In fact, I'll even take the time to highlight appropriately my part in any leaked conversations you've read, so you can see how much "sulking" and "complaining" I'm doing.

Save your hostility for the ones you're mad at, buddy.

All I did was take a second to answer your question, and let you know that a few of us old timers -- guys like me and Bull, who were Dumpshockers, God bless us, before we were involved in the game in any official capacity -- still come here from time to time. If the above response is what someone can expect when they take the time to answer a question from you...do you really wonder why less of us are around?

Okay, I wasn't exactly nice to you, and I apologise.

However, I stand by what I said about this book. It is an all-time low. I see nothing redeeming about it. Even the hot-fixes in terms of gear look bad, both in presentation and how they are embedded in this ... book, forcing players to buy it or be left behind. Is this where Shadowrun is headed? If so, this will bury the franchise for good.

Everyone else here: Anyone up for working up a map of the Aztlan-Amazonia-conflict up to the point of time WAR describes? I'd like to at least know more or less how the war is going apart from phone numbers in Bogota.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Meaning, a full burst of 10 mini frag grenade from any automatic grenade launcher will give you 66(f) DV +5AP, plus hits (you can add them in now).

For reference:

A bunker buster cruise missile does 64P -20. A standard cruise missile just 32P -4.

[Critias]

Which is why the official forum was created in the first place, while the FAQ happily answers "Why are there no Catalyst-sponsored Shadowrun forums?" with "Because the fine folks running Dumpshock have been maintaining those forums for many years, and we see no need to duplicate their efforts." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

And the attitude on DS hasn't changed that much lately – if at all, there's probably less flaming than before.

I'm not trying to debate the merits of having an official forum or not, I'm just stating part of why -- in my opinion -- official fan interaction might seem a little sparse around here lately. Because there's an official forum, during my daily web browsing I go there first. If I still have the time and inclination, I then check Dumpshock. The creation of an official forum wasn't up to me (or most of the rest of us), but since it's there, it only makes sense for writers to spend some time there, yeah?

[Doc Chase]

Very true.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Well, my point was that this was the whole point. So it implies the understanding of that concept.

[KarmaInferno]

The Designate spell bothers me.

I mean, not the ability to cause energy to radiate from a point to serve as a target designator. That's fine, though you probably need to beat your weapon's OR for it to be able to "see" the magic targeting dot.

It's the second part about needing thermo or radar implants to emulate infrared or radar designators. Since when did your physical eyes totally restrict targeting of any spell?

We already know a completely blind character can target spells just fine via astral perception. Magic in Shadowrun stems from Astral Space anyhow. How is that precious thermo or radar implant supposed to help there? I mean, you don't "see" the effects of an Orgy spell cast into an area with no people either, but that doesn't mean you can't target it.

Targeting stuff with magic has always been factored based on perceiving the TARGET, not perceiving the spell!

I'd just cut that part out completely and allow anyone to create a visible, infrared, or radar emission point at the target location, regardless of their vision.




-k

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Maybe you need an implanted commlink to cast the ECM spell as well.

[hermit]

You want more than lashing out at authors? Fine. Let's Talk.

What stinks about WAR

- Editing, format, and presentation
The book apparently went through no editing at all. Typos that would be caught simply by an MS Word spellcheck (carniverous plants ...), the book is from the future and has been copyrighted in 2011, and that's just the first pages. Weird clipping errors with the graphics that layer behind the text that renders text there hardly readible, ridiculous to downright facepalm worthy German names (really, if you don't know the language, DON'T USE IT) - given that a good portion of your customers are German, you might want to tread with slightly more care. Lots of stuff like this. I have seen many web pages maintained by a single fan who have much better 'editing'. Used to be the other way round.

- Fluff Content
The people who wrote this seem to know next to nothing about the setting. It'S a plethora of background errors - astral scouting through SdD trees is recommended (bad idea, look it up), the Marienbad setting has just been copied and slightly rewritten from SoE, Somalia is all but copypasted from the CIA factbook (conveniently ignoring the Almanach), and of course the above mentioned Auschwitz stuff that contains so many contradicitons to fluff that I would consider it a bad parody by an angry fanboy if I hadn't seen it in an upcoming print product with my own eyes.
Bogota is presented awfully. The writing seems stale, the individual shadowposters all drone on in the same mood and tone, and there is little play value in the sprawl (it also seems a bit like a travel guide to Bogota copied into a shadowrun format). It received a bit more care than the other Hotspots, but it still seems bland and generic. What's more, I don't get the feeling there's a war going on in this city.
And this brings me to the presentation of the war. It's atrocious. We get no info on the armies involved save for sporadic, eclectic writeups of their motivations. Why wasn't there a description of an Aztlaner mechanised platoon, a group of the Amazonian army, and a resistance tribe? Complete with names, organisation, and some faces and names, some personality? How about a look into a soldier's head on each side, like was done with the Aztlaner soldier in System Failure?
And why is there neither a timeline of the war (battles, advances, retreats) and a map of the conflict for the time leading up to the time War takes place? This whole section does not feel like a war at all. It feels ... eclectic, badly written, and in no way interesting. The armies - two of the most colorful forces the setting has to offer, a promarily magic oriented, critter heavy army on one side and a highly organised, moderatly magical army with a tendency for massive bloodbaths on the other, and some rebels that are looking to get crushed in between.
The international part? Not much better. Actually, a lot worse. And the 'survuival in a war zone'? Generic. We've had that twice already in the setting. Not a novel approach or anything. It reads like copypasted from some mountain men web site or something.

- Crunch Content
Hotfixes by powerful equipment. Okay, I don'T have so much of a problem with this (my group had a house rule like the Matrix gear for some time), and I see why it was done like that. But the new armor? Why strength? Why not agility? Also, some of the new equipment is either overpowered (the targeting software, smartgun for mages, ect), weird (why do we need battleships again?) and then those god-awful names ... The rules are a mixed bag. Some are good, some are useful for large-scale campaigns, but then again ... why put rules into a sourcebook again? Wasn't there something SR4 did not want to do, like put essential rules and equipment in an otherwise unremarkable sourcebook to make people buy it? I vaguely seem to remember that. PTSD rules ... well okay, nice to have them, though I don't really see why they shouldn't be applicable to general runners as much as soldiers. It's not like their life is any easier (it's actually harder, since commanding officers usually are not going to choke their troops in their sleep, or have them poisoned, but shadowrunners' employers often do).
Generally the authors seem to have as solid a grasp on the rules as on the fluff. And again, epic and total editing fail. Is there even editing happening anymore? It sure doesn't look like it.
The presentation is equally bad. No images, not even the stamp-sized ones in previous supplements. Just ongoing listing and a few frames with stats in them. Where, exactly, does the money go here? Surely not into presentation. Probably not into the writing (otherwise, I assume even those authors would have made an effort). Does it go to Topps to pay back the depts? Or what?

- Tone
That's hardest to pin down, but the whole book feels slightly ... smelly ... in tone. It smells of swastikas and beer. The frat boy bit about Auschwitz, the whole general tone about how soldiers are better than civilians ... maybe this is common among Americans, but I don't like it. At all. Then the part about Somalia ([bad N-word] never change, could be the title) ... sorry, this is a bit much to just attribute to bad writing. Given that BattleTech always had a slightly ... right-arm-raisy slant ... well, I guess it's to be expected from BattleTech authors, but I don'T care for such shit one bit.

And I spent money on this. You see, it's not limited to Americans to have a bit of a money bottleneck every once in a while. I really don't feel I got my money's worth here. Not in the least. That it is a de facto essential book makes this all the more aggravating. Basically, I pay €12 for 20 pages worth of gear. Badly written and worse presented.

There. Happy?

[Critias]

Happier, yes. Feedback mixed with insults is still more useful and constructive than insults alone. I'm trying to spread the word to the non-DS-regulars to check this thread. Being specific like this means they can know what fans don't like, as opposed to just being called names, which doesn't really promote any sort of improvement, y'know?

[Smokeskin]

I'm pretty sure those six words from me aren't to blame for the attitude he's showing, thanks. I'm sorry if I let a little snark slip into my response, but it's not like his initial question was exactly open and friendly, either.

Reread this thread and the general attitude being shown in it, look at the vitriol even non-War writers are getting here, and ask yourself if you wouldn't wonder why you bothered, too, okay? It's only natural for the official crew to hang out at the official forum (wouldn't it look pretty silly if DS got all the developer posts, and NOT the official forum? And we've all only got so much time a day to hang out on the internet, so it makes sense for that time to be dedicated primarily to the forum we're expected at)...but when the attitude is like the attitude's been here on DS of late, it makes even more sense to avoid the place and hang out at the official SR joint, instead, doesn't it?

I'm not defending War. I don't even have a copy of it myself, yet, because money's tight around the holidays and it's gonna have to wait 'till payday. It's clear some folks aren't happy with it...but if some folks here want the writers to hang out here again, maybe they could offer up some feedback that doesn't end with "LOLOL Battletech rejects derp derp derp." There's some helpful stuff in this thread, sure, but the signal:noise ratio is getting all out of wack with a few people.

Criticism is one thing, and I know -- once any of my stuff hits shelves -- I, at least, welcome it. I've never been shy about the stuff I wrote for Privateer Press, or Comfy Chair, or anyone else, and I'm going to welcome comments on my Shadowrun work, just as much. But when those comments consist of calling people scabs, rejects, and idiots, don't be surprised when people don't want to read it any more.

For every vocal douchebag there is several quiet people who appreciate your work.

[hermit]

Okay. And where was I insulting? Okay, the n-word, but it was for illustrative purposes only (hey, the authors titled the part on Auschwitz Work Brings Freedom). Edited.

[Doc Chase]

One thing I can say is that the editing issue has been a concern of mine since before 6WA hit the e-reader. Indeed, there are errors that spellchecks could've - and should've - caught, but there they are.

edit: Something insulting that probably shouldn't be there - "I guess it's to be expected of Battletech writers."

[sabs]

Auschwitz is supposed to be haunted with a very serious background count. (6 I believe)
You do know that Work Brings Freedom was an actual Motto printed over the gates of Auchwitz?
I actually appreciate not sugar coating history because it makes people uncomfortable. The Nazi Death Camps have been symbols of what it takes to get a 6 Background Count for many versions of Shadowrun. So that's not a problem per say.

I'm a little confused about Necromantic Artifacts though. What kind of artifacts?
I'm going to have to read that section myself cause that just seems weird.
The U.S forces buried all of the dead they found, when they liberated the camps. I would expect there to be necromantic components (the ground itself, parts of the buildings). But artifacts? that seems weird.

I'll probably pick up war, but i've been really disappointed by the editing.
I mean, how hard would it have been to do a word search and replace for Dollar to Nuyen.

[Critias]

All I see is what I see (I'm not especially privy to the layout, editing, etc, steps of the process), and I wasn't involved until War! was all wrapped up, so I didn't see anything to do with it -- but I know that on a few more recent projects, several of us freelancers are sending our drafts back and forth amongst ourselves before submitting them formally, and a key part of that is trying to find basic typos and similar errors, for one another.

It may or may not have been common practice for War! (and it looks like it wasn't, judging from some of the complaints), but I know that at least some of us are working hard to make sure our material isn't spotted with these sort of errors.

[Mäx]

some of the new equipment is either overpowered ( smartgun for mages)

Are you fraking kidding me, a 14F availability gadget costing 10k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) that give +1 dice for LOS indirect combat spells and requires the character to have cyber-eyes with smart link, is over powerred in your opinion.

[hermit]

edit: Something insulting that probably shouldn't be there - "I guess it's to be expected of Battletech writers."

Maybe that's a too harsh, but I stopped reading BattelTech because this undertone was getting on my nerves (what with the Clans and their supersoldier breeding and aryan soldier caste dictatorship being written up to be BESSER ALS DU). Maybe it's changed since then, I dunno. It's no surprise to me this tone - new to Shadowrun, as is, aside from the Charette Novels - coems from BattleTech writers who probably think it normal.

All I see is what I see (I'm not especially privy to the layout, editing, etc, steps of the process), and I wasn't involved until War! was all wrapped up, so I didn't see anything to do with it -- but I know that on a few more recent projects, several of us freelancers are sending our drafts back and forth amongst ourselves before submitting them formally, and a key part of that is trying to find basic typos and similar errors, for one another.

It may or may not have been common practice for War! (and it looks like it wasn't, judging from some of the complaints), but I know that at least some of us are working hard to make sure our material isn't spotted with these sort of errors.

Good to know. However, it clearly did not happen here.

This book feels like it has been produced by people who don't give a damn about either the book, the topic or shadowrun in general, and make no effort to conceal this. And a book that has seen zero oversight from the higher-ups in CGL.

Are you fraking kidding me, a 14F availability gadget costing 10k nuyen.gif that give +1 dice for LOS indirect combat spells and requires the character to have cyber-eyes with smart link, is over powerred in your opinion.

I assumed that was a typo, the author confusing cybereyes and smartgoggles. Okay, not that bad, but it still just should not be. Also, grenades and yadda yadda. Didn't want to copypaste RvD.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

For every vocal douchebag there is several quiet people who appreciate your work.

Whenever you invoke the silent majority fallacy, god kills a kitten. Please think of the kittens.

[Doc Chase]

All I see is what I see (I'm not especially privy to the layout, editing, etc, steps of the process), and I wasn't involved until War! was all wrapped up, so I didn't see anything to do with it -- but I know that on a few more recent projects, several of us freelancers are sending our drafts back and forth amongst ourselves before submitting them formally, and a key part of that is trying to find basic typos and similar errors, for one another.

It may or may not have been common practice for War! (and it looks like it wasn't, judging from some of the complaints), but I know that at least some of us are working hard to make sure our material isn't spotted with these sort of errors.

It's appreciated, but there is another factor in this - final editing isn't occuring. When Those in Charge are putting these together, errors are going to crop up when the work is set in the layout templates, there may be continuity errors, etc. Nothing gets my goat more than reading a good piece of text and turning the page to find something else entirely, and the duplicate timeline bodies on multiple pages in 6WA really killed the enjoyment of the book for me. A lot of this would've been caught on a final proofread before it went to the printer, and it concerns me that it's being done improperly or not at all.

[imperialus]

Whenever you invoke the silent majority fallacy, god kills a kitten. Please think of the kittens.

Well I'm not sure if I'm silent but I'm certainly not shouting as loud as you and I think War is just fine.

[sabs]

And more importantly that it seems to be systemic.
It's not like 6WA was an anomaly. We're actually starting to see that it was foreshadowing of product quality to come.

[Kid Chameleon]

Which the current crop of BattleTech dropouts obviously don't.

Not to interrupt your frothing at the mouth, but I don't believe any of the writers for War! have a BattleTech credit.

[hermit]

You do know that Work Brings Freedom was an actual Motto printed over the gates of Auchwitz?

That's the joke in the title. Get it?

It's not like 6WA was an anomaly. We're actually starting to see that it was foreshadowing of product quality to come.

Yeah. Apparently yes. Pity really. Always loved the setting. Well, maybe the German crew will fix the worst of this.