War, HUH! It's out on pdf Options

[Critias]

Maybe that's a too harsh, but I stopped reading BattelTech because this undertone was getting on my nerves (what with the Clans and their supersoldier breeding and aryan soldier caste dictatorship being written up to be BESSER ALS DU). Maybe it's changed since then, I dunno. It's no surprise to me this tone - new to Shadowrun, as is, aside from the Charette Novels - coems from BattleTech writers who probably think it normal.

We're getting a little off topic from War! here, but since I don't have it yet, I'm still game for a conversation...

As far as Battletech goes, I'm just a fan (I can't bring myself to pay for a BattleCorps membership just to submit some fiction to them, or anything like that). From a fan's perspective, then, I think it was always pretty clear that the Clans were, inasmuch as any single faction in Battletech, the bad guys. They were presented -- about 20 years ago -- as a marauding wave of almost inhuman invaders, who were soundly in the "antagonist" camp. A few of them had a few noble traits, but by and large they were introduced to the setting to be reviled and challenged, not praised and emulated.

Since then their image has softened somewhat, but so has their actual in-game presentation. Many of them have expressed doubts about the integrity and success of their breeding program, some have jumped ship to Inner Sphere factions that will honor "freebirth" characters more, and generally speaking cracks have been showing in their caste system since almost day one. They've been clearly presented as the bad guys, and then as the bad guys with the openly failing system...and then, most recently, quite a few of them have just been quietly ignored as the plot focused on Word of Blake and a bunch of other stuff, instead. So they've been swept under the rug.

*shrugs* Your mileage may (obviously) vary, but I guess I just never really saw them as praising the Clans, really, or putting them up on a pedestal. They were the bad guys, for the most part, and those that were individually presented in a positive light never struck me as being unlike, say, a Rommel or a von Stauffenberg. Honorable men that were the exception rather than the rule, stuck fighting in a system that they didn't necessarily agree with.

That said, I think there's been a similar tone in quite a few Shadowrun products, and for a very, very, long time. As an admitted fanboy of quite a few SR1 books, for instance, I'd just point you towards either of the Tirs, particularly in their own books. I love 'em for it, but there's no denying those are a pair of Elven Fascist states. Likewise, Japan's often been pigeonholed into the "we're super honorable in a self-promoting and racist sort of way, but our Zen balance makes our samurai dudes just better than you!" shape, hasn't it?

I'd hardly say these sort of undercurrents are new to Shadowrun...and, if anything, I'd say that the more recent crops of Shadowrun writers has been softening those sorts of mentalities. Compare Tir Tairngire from 1993 to the Tir Tairngire in the canon of 2010, for instance. Even the SR-Japanese are in the midst of a civil feud to decide just how conservative, metaracist, and honor-bound to keep the Empire, in fact.

So, again, I can't speak specifically on what's presented in War!, but I can say that I think, if anything, the macho, ubersoldier, fascist regimes are on the downswing in Shadowrun (and in Battletech), not on the rise.

[Doc Chase]

And more importantly that it seems to be systemic.
It's not like 6WA was an anomaly. We're actually starting to see that it was foreshadowing of product quality to come.

Yes. This is exactly what concerns me. I'm pleased that writers are passionate enough to continue to bring us SR product, but the editing issues start to tell me a story of a company that may not be as passionate about the back end.

Now let's see how much more entendre I can slap into my postings today.

[Daishi]

Mobility Upgrade is obsolete.

To an extent and meh. That's hardly in the vicinity of 'radical change.'

One complaint about the tables at the back: White on Black sucks for those who print their PDFs or even just the tables. Also, the compiled tables are incomplete. Messes with the quick reference notion.

[Eratosthenes]

This book feels like it has been produced by people who don't give a damn about either the book, the topic or shadowrun in general, and make no effort to conceal this. And a book that has seen zero oversight from the higher-ups in CGL.

That's your opinion, and I disagree. I enjoyed the book, and enjoyed the new toys, setting, and rules.

[sabs]

I admit, I don't get the joke no.

I guess I'll have to read the section to see.

I could see Titling the section on Auschwitz "Work Brings Freedom" as a commentary on how fucked up the place is. It's something a shadownet geek would do. It's the kind of historical/cultural referencing that us geeks love to pull of.

But if it's there as a joke.. I don't get it.

[sabs]

About BattleTech

The 'Clans' have been a psuedo Neo-Nazi group since the first battletech book. I think they were inspired by Wrath of Khan originally.

As for shadowrun, it's always been there as a social commentary. The Ork and Troll issues, the Humanis Poli Club, Tir, The Five Nations. If anything we've lost a lot of that lately, with the changes in Ork birth rates, the closing of the Japanese Imperial Metahuman Island.. and other things too numerous to list.

[hermit]

As far as Battletech goes, I'm just a fan (I can't bring myself to pay for a BattleCorps membership just to submit some fiction to them, or anything like that). From a fan's perspective, then, I think it was always pretty clear that the Clans were, inasmuch as any single faction in Battletech, the bad guys. They were presented -- about 20 years ago -- as a marauding wave of almost inhuman invaders, who were soundly in the "antagonist" camp. A few of them had a few noble traits, but by and large they were introduced to the setting to be reviled and challenged, not praised and emulated.

I honestly never got that feeling. It was always noble and superior clanners versus backstabby and sneaky but weak inner sphere. I appreciate this view, it's what it should have been like, but I never got the feeling it was intended to work like this. But admittedly, my knowledge of the setting is quite old.

That said, I think there's been a similar tone in quite a few Shadowrun products, and for a very, very, long time. As an admitted fanboy of quite a few SR1 books, for instance, I'd just point you towards either of the Tirs, particularly in their own books. I love 'em for it, but there's no denying those are a pair of Elven Fascist states. Likewise, Japan's often been pigeonholed into the "we're super honorable in a self-promoting and racist sort of way, but our Zen balance makes our samurai dudes just better than you!" shape, hasn't it?

Tairngire yes, Tir na nOg not as much, or rather, in a much more disturbing way. It was somewhat of a mild shock reading about their horribly restrictive anti-terror laws. Because they require more involvement of the judiciary and are harsher on arbitraty assassinations and nabbings than many IRL states are, among them many western democracies. One week of being kept without trial (it's a lot longer in Britain, the US, France ...) and swift trials before a military jury (eh, Guantanamo ...). I get that it was intended to be an eco-fascist dictatorship. But what does the fact that most of it's eco laws are mirrored in the legislations of many EU states then say? It was a mild 'why didn't I notice this while it happened' moment. Admittedly, that's something that meets the eye, but ...

And I never got that 'but the Tir really IS better than you' vibe I got from the Clanner stuff.

After looking it up, though, those were written by Charette. Author of Kauft nicht beim Elfen. Maybe it's just that, and I've been rather unfair. I sold my rules books a long time ago together with the minis, cannot check there.

Compare Tir Tairngire from 1993 to the Tir Tairngire in the canon of 2010, for instance.

I sorely miss the old Tir. It was my all-time favourite place to place a campaign's final villain.

As for shadowrun, it's always been there as a social commentary. The Ork and Troll issues, the Humanis Poli Club, Tir, The Five Nations. If anything we've lost a lot of that lately, with the changes in Ork birth rates, the closing of the Japanese Imperial Metahuman Island.. and other things too numerous to list.

Yes, and I miss this (Elf birth rates over 300 fertile years also should start to become an issue, btw). The world's becoming too streamlined and nice. We also have Facebook and Google implemented (as seen by Americans, not Germans. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

I admit, I don't get the joke no.

It's a really bad, tasteless and not funny joke.

[Stahlseele]

I admit, I don't get the joke no.

I guess I'll have to read the section to see.

I could see Titling the section on Auschwitz "Work Brings Freedom" as a commentary on how fucked up the place is. It's something a shadownet geek would do. It's the kind of historical/cultural referencing that us geeks love to pull of.

But if it's there as a joke.. I don't get it.

Work Brings Freedom.
ARB3IT MACHT FREI.
And yes, the e is, indeed, turned around in the writing above the gate.
It was meant to persuade the victims that they could get out of jail by playing the work hard card.
A lie, obviously. just like the showers.

In the context of this book, the work of one guy/group frees auschwitz from the magical dome . .

[sabs]

How do you free Auschwitz from its Rating 6 Background and Blood Spirits?

[hobgoblin]

Whenever you invoke the silent majority fallacy, god kills a kitten. Please think of the kittens.

is there a "calling something a fallacy" fallacy?

[hermit]

How do you free Auschwitz from its Rating 6 Background and Blood Spirits?

By popping undead schmucks and stealing their necromantic treasures!

[sabs]

By popping undead schmucks and stealing their necromantic treasures!

Okay I think my head exploded.

I mean I love Zombie Nazis as much as the next guy.. but.. really?

[hermit]

I am sorry, but I did not write this book. The purpose of this setting is to go there and shoot undead former prisoners (okay, jews is not entirely accurate, there also were gays, gypsies and russians) and loot the necromantic treasures hidden there. Because this tetsuo guy tore down the magical dome keeping them in and now it'S a free for all for enterprising awakened investigators!

There is a excerpt up there somewhere (post by Sengir). Look for it. Really, I wish I were making this up.

[Stahlseele]

And now for a bitter little question from me:
If we were to take this book, remove all mentionings of the shadowrun universe and replaced it with the Battletech Universe . . would it still be bad?
Seems as if most stuff people are bitching about is stuff many people both inside and outside of the universe would want for Battletech . .
I'm kinda surprised there's no mentioning of multiples of 30m (one battletech hex) in all of this . .

[Kid Chameleon]

Really, I wish I were making this up.

If only it were easy to tell when you were making stuff up.

[hermit]

If we were to take this book, remove all mentionings of the shadowrun universe and replaced it with the Battletech Universe . . would it still be bad?

Yes. At least the fluff. The Crunch probably would fit well with BT. Especially the orbital artillery. Finally, artillery worth spending money on! With that much of a kill zone (about 5 hexes across), you'd actually hit something! The price of the killsat would probably screw royally with the setting, IIRC a Mech weighs in at around 1 bn credits too.

If only it were easy to tell when you were making stuff up.

There'S an excerpt where everyone can see for themselves. Were you involed in War? If so, why not spend your energy on improving your writing instead of flaming?

[Kid Chameleon]

Why not try and spend your energy on non-sub-par writing instead of flaming?

I've never seen you complain about my writing before. Which parts in particular did you find sub-par?

I guess it would be too much to ask for you to apologize for your asinine statements about BattleTech writers screwing up War!?

[hermit]

Sorry, ninja edit to be more precise.

I guess it would be too much to ask for you to apologize for your asinine statements about BattleTech writers screwing up War!?

If those involved weren't BT writers, I apologise. Then replace Battletech with a generic crap writer. Okay?

[Shrike30]

The purpose of this setting is to go there and shoot undead former prisoners (okay, jews is not entirely accurate, there also were gays, gypsies and russians) and loot the necromantic treasures hidden there. Because this tetsuo guy tore down the magical dome keeping them in and now it'S a free for all for enterprising awakened investigators!

I get why people are offended by this (and I'm probably going to piss a few people off by saying this), but that's a pretty SR-universe thing to do. There's a ton of people out there who feel Auschwitz is one of those places that should be turned into a memorial of Things That Should Never Be Forgotten Or Done Again for the rest of time, and I don't have a problem with that. History is a good teacher. That said...

Come 207X, some yahoo figures out he can sneak into the memorial, work some magic, and start making cubic assloads of nuyen off of it. People all over the world can scream "atrocity!" and "travesty!" and get all up in arms about it, but the fact of the matter is that I totally buy that some creative entrepreneur would try it. For every semi-educated shadowrunner out there who raises a moral, ethical, or taste-based objection to going into Auschwitz to attack the ghosts of atrocities past and steal their bones for profit, there's going to be a dozen haven't-gotten-killed-yet-somehow Cram-addled gangers from the sprawl who are more than willing to take Mr. J's 5k plus 5% (and 5 injectors of Cram) offer and try to score big at the Zombie Camp of Dr Mengele, with tac-network, submachineguns, and heavy-metal soundtrack brought to you by Ares ThugLife™. People have been pyramid-, grave-, or tomb-robbing for all of time, I don't see why this would be different... "sacred Indian burial grounds" ring a bell to anyone?

I haven't read War! yet, and so I've got no idea if the tone of the writing is part of the problem. But in terms of "does it fit the setting?" Profiteering off the agony of long-dead victims is pure Shadowrun (and is usually cheaper than trying to produce the same number of new victims, so that's where the corporate interest will be).

[Kid Chameleon]

If those involved weren't BT writers, I apologise. Then replace Battletech with a generic crap writer. Okay?

Your attention to detail is something we should all aspire to.

[hermit]

Your attention to detail is something we should all aspire to.

Indeed. Starting with my track record for use of spellcheck function on submitted writings and my skill in knowing the year we currently have. Proficiency in a foreign language optional.

Come 207X, some yahoo figures out he can sneak into the memorial, work some magic, and start making cubic assloads of nuyen off of it. People all over the world can scream "atrocity!" and "travesty!" and get all up in arms about it, but the fact of the matter is that I totally buy that some creative entrepreneur would try it.

He'd live for day, maybe weeks, before the Israelis off him, but certainly. The problem is:

There never was a magical dome. There never were undead jews. There never before were necromantic artifacts or anything else worth robbing there. The whole setout, apart from tastelessness, is very much NOT Shadowrun. It's a generic snicker-snicker let's do wild and mildly rebellous stuff setting.

For every semi-educated shadowrunner out there who raises a moral, ethical, or taste-based objection to going into Auschwitz to attack the ghosts of atrocities past and steal their bones for profit, there's going to be a dozen haven't-gotten-killed-yet-somehow Cram-addled gangers from the sprawl who are more than willing to take Mr. J's 5k plus 5% (and 5 injectors of Cram) offer and try to score big at the Zombie Camp of Dr Mengele, with tac-network, submachineguns, and heavy-metal soundtrack brought to you by Ares ThugLife™.

Ah yes. the 5K would not even cover the flight there, and why the hell should Johnson spend money to ferry in some fuckups from Seattle when Poland is such a rich source of much less undependable cheap talent who probably will get the job done rather than do drugs and pretend they're living in a Vin Diesel movie. But then again, I play the game on a much less loony, Jason Statham base. It's a lot more serious and deadly with me. YMMV, as always.

Still, ignoring everything that's ever been written about the setting is a bad move.

[Kid Chameleon]

Indeed. Starting with my track record for use of spellcheck function on submitted writings and my skill in knowing the year we currently have. Proficiency in a foreign language optional.

But not knowing a damn about what year to put on products.

Jesus Christ on a cracker, there's plenty of room to complain about Catalyst's publications without making up ridiculous shit. The typos are horrible, there shouldn't be that many in a released product. I can't treat your criticisms with any sort of respect with how much crying wolf you do.

How long should I wait for you commentary on my 'sub-par' writing?

[Doc Chase]

Considering the actual street date is going to be sometime in 2011, the copyright date of same isn't that terribly bad, especially as there's only 15 days left in the year.

[Shrike30]

The problem is: There never was a magical dome. There never were undead jews. There never before were necromantic artifacts or anything else worth robbing there. The whole setout, apart from tastelessness, is very much NOT Shadowrun. It's a generic snicker-snicker let's do wild and mildly rebellous stuff setting.

I don't remember Auschwitz ever being detailed as anything beyond an example of a high rating background count, but then I've not read the Germany sourcebook in years, and don't speak the language (so I don't know what any of the German-language supplements have said about the place).

Ah yes. the 5K would not even cover the flight there, and why the hell should Johnson spend money to ferry in some fuckups from Seattle when Poland is such a rich source of much less undependable cheap talent who probably will get the job done rather than do drugs and pretend they're living in a Vin Diesel movie. But then again, I play the game on a much less loony, Jason Statham base. It's a lot more serious and deadly with me. YMMV, as always.

There's Sprawls in Poland, I assume, and gangers, who make wonderful deniable assets (since all of their friends and family are SINless and will tell the cops to go to hell), and they work on the cheap. You may feel that the drugs+loud music+automatics mix is loony... I think it's a pretty good example of the kind of scene you'd probably find today inside of a car full of gangbangers about to pull off a drive-by shooting, and updating it for 207X isn't much of a change. They're pretty serious and deadly. "Professional," not necessarily, but of the selection of people available in the world who are willing to Shoot Someone Right In The Face For Money, "professional" doesn't describe most of them.

[hermit]

But not knowing a damn about what year to put on products.

Unlike you, I don't claim to work in the publishing business, nor do I demand money for my crap. If that's common practice, fine, it seems this was mentioned by others too. And I didn't make this up, mind you. I wasn't informed about American publishing practices, oh my! However, I can formulate sensible sentences in English. How's your German again (with War, this is a relevant question)?

Also, the typos remain, as do the various format issues in CGL product, wrongly copied tables and whatnot. The release date was amusing, nothing more. And it's not typos that don't show up on a spellcheck and hence are hard to catch, mind you. I'd get a homework I hand in with such typos back. And that's not publishing, that's bloody meaningless homework for bloody meaningless university seminars. You (as in, CGL and the current authors) expect to receive MONEY for work so riddled with mistakes. Big difference.

You see, you're looking for reasons not to take criticism seriously (pretty lame reasons too, considering you're doing your best to be insulting yourself). Admittedly, nobody here is sugar coating anything, but you don't have any right to expect this. Not as long as CGL churns out deeply flawed and unsatisfactory product like the Almanach and War.

I don't remember Auschwitz ever being detailed as anything beyond an example of a high rating background count, but then I've not read the Germany sourcebook in years, and don't speak the language (so I don't know what any of the German-language supplements have said about the place).

There was a bit on it in Shadows of Europe (place is evacuated and angry angry spirits are being contained by Sylvestrines; also, wild hunt-esque troops of concentration camp inmates on death march routes). Not very much about Auschwitz in the Germany book for license reasons, only stuff on camps on German and Austrian soil.

There's Sprawls in Poland, I assume, and gangers, who make wonderful deniable assets (since all of their friends and family are SINless and will tell the cops to go to hell), and they work on the cheap.

Shadowrun Poland is more like Iraq with more and different corporations and less appealing weather (but nicer beaches). Just had a civil war to get the russkies out ended and now fight another amongst each other (think post-89 Afghanistan). If anything, the guys for hire there are the likes of Sunni militiamen from Falluja or whatnot, not American-style gangbangers.