War, HUH! It's out on pdf Options

[hermit]

Pity. Other stuff, like Smyth's Nagano Combine, seems to thrive and prosper.

[fistandantilus4....]

Sorry, but keeping up with threads is always difficult when it's covering a new book. There' s a lot of frustration here, and for the most part, it's pretty civil. So posts like this...

more like a whining combination (the amount of potential poo flinging is staggering).

... are not helpful. Haven't read War yet so I've got no stance on it. Please just keep things polie, cut back on the snide comments here and there, and keep your time/energy directed in a useful direction instead of at other posters (former and current both).

Thanks

[Mäx]

Sorry, but keeping up with threads is always difficult when it's covering a new book. There' s a lot of frustration here, and for the most part, it's pretty civil. So posts like this...

... are not helpful. Haven't read War yet so I've got no stance on it. Please just keep things polie, cut back on the snide comments here and there, and keep your time/energy directed in a useful direction instead of at other posters (former and current both).

Thanks

I know commenting on admin posts might be bad manners, but you did notice that comment was about a succestion of getting Ancient History and Frank Trollman to write a hypothetical book and not about WAR?

[fistandantilus4....]

Yes I did. And about whining and poo flinging. AH isn't around a lot, and Frank is banned, but it's still a post that adds nothing. I could care less if people bad mouth the book. Like I said, I haven't read it , so I have no opinion. It's the shots at people, present or not, I'd like to keep down.

And no worries on replying to posts. Like I said, for the most part, this has been a pretty good thread, especially with the amount of frustration everyone's got. There were just some things that came up a few pages back (one of which was resolved, thanks guys ) that needed commenting on. Not trying to stomp on anybody.

[Kagetenshi]

Hmmkay. It may just well be that my dates are way off, but I also want to use Shiawase as further proof of the split.

I'll get my books out when I get home and do a bit of reading, see where these companies are forming. I think we can use date of creation as the split date for the first one.

Ok, there are some things that reach even further back—Shiawase is founded in "the post-World War Two reconstruction of Japan", so probably the 1950s or 60s. That said, I feel (possibly without firm ground, haven't figured that out yet) that that's getting into the fiddly details and that we aren't talking "world stage" diverges until Burger.

~J

[Doc Chase]

Ok, there are some things that reach even further back—Shiawase is founded in "the post-World War Two reconstruction of Japan", so probably the 1950s or 60s. That said, I feel (possibly without firm ground, haven't figured that out yet) that that's getting into the fiddly details and that we aren't talking "world stage" diverges until Burger.

~J

I'll accept that. I agree, the court is the best date to use for the split.

[KarmaInferno]

The author of the Auschwitz section has popped up on the official boards, if anyone has questions for him.






-k

[Grinder]

If You do Paris, I'd love to help.

We're on.

We have the "Community Projects" board for this. Open up a thread for the discussion about a Community-created War 2.0 and we'll see how it works out.

[hermit]

None that wouldn't get me banned, I'm afraid. Then again, what the hell, I'll try and see how much censorship happens.

Anyone else amused that the official boards' user numbers are mainkly propped up by Spambots?

We have the "Community Projects" board for this. Open up a thread for the discussion about a Community-created War 2.0 and we'll see how it works out.

On it.

[Grinder]

The author of the Auschwitz section has popped up on the official boards, if anyone has questions for him.

Which thread is it? Not in the War!-thread in the Catalyst's Shadowrun Products-section, or am I wrong?

[Critias]

None that wouldn't get me banned, I'm afraid. Then again, what the hell, I'll try and see how much censorship happens.

Gotta love a little self-fulfilling prophecy, huh? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Which thread is it? Not in the War!-thread in the Catalyst's Shadowrun Products-section, or am I wrong?

"Let's Talk WAR!" in the Shadowrun General->General Discussion board.

[Grinder]

D'oh! I mean: thanks for the info. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[hermit]

Gotta love a little self-fulfilling prophecy, huh?

Actually, that post was made assuming sensible and neutral moderating, not heavy-handed Hardy dictatorship.

[Grinder]

On it.

Cool! Here it is.

[Critias]

Oswiecim, from Shadows of Europe:

After the Awakening, many former battlefields and sites of carnage from Europe's many wars became haunted by ghosts. Even the recent Euro Wars left their mark, as witnessed by the specters lingering in the battlefields of Pustynia near Warsaw-Lodz. But the most haunted and spiritually corrupt areas by far are those where great massacres occurred, particularly former Nazi concentration camps and the Warsaw ghetto.

The city of Oswiecim stands right next to the Auschwitz-Birkenau, the Nazis' largest concentration camp. For over twenty years after the Awakening, the ghosts of this camp's victims drove all life from this region, occasionally haunting nearby areas and even Krakow as well. The Sylvestrines erected a massive spirit barrier (Force 8 ) around the area in 2035, and maintain it to this day along with patrols of watchers.

Within the barrier, thousands of apparitions, specters, and unique ghosts (see pp. 120-2, MitS) are contained, waiting to unleash their pain, misery, and wrath on any metahumans foolish enough to venture within. The camp itself has a Background Count of 5 (petering down to 3 in Oswiecim and 2 or 1 a few kilometers out), and the gas chambers and other buildings razed by the Nazis to hide their atrocities appear as (sometimes materialized) astral constructs (see pp. 100-2, T: AL).

So, really, all War! did was knock down the barrier and introduce some guy to spread rumors about necromantic artifacts (which a GM may or may not want to stat up), in order to get people to pay him money and equip themselves to try and go kill ghosts.

Ghosts that have been there since SR3, six years ago.

Or am I misreading something from the posts folks have made here, describing their issues with this section of War!? Because it seems to me like lots of the complaints are that the guy "invented" ghosts, "invented" a barrier around the place, etc, etc...when, in reality, lots of what he wrote already existed in canon, whether most of us read or remembered it or not. I know it was certainly new to me (because I can't remember ever reading this section before, but then I've never done anything in Poland for Shadowrun)...but maybe folks are being a little hypercritical of the guy.

ETA: p. 229 of SoE, for those that were curious.

[Grinder]

I find the whole adventure hook to be rather generic (it's basically a dungeon-crawl to find/ retrieve/ loot artifacts) and the necromantic artifacts, whatever that shall be. Aside from that, the section is written poorly and feels like a quick conversion of a (also generic) D&D-adventure hook.

[Critias]

And criticism like that strikes me as just fine, because you're basically just saying you don't like it, and don't think it was well done, or it doesn't suit your tastes, fit with the setting in your opinion, etc, etc.

But for the folks claiming this whole thing was his idea, that he doesn't know Shadowrun if he's talking about ghosts, that he's personally responsible for somehow disrespecting the people that died at Auschwitz, and that sort of thing...I think that particular excerpt from Shadows of Europe might be a bit of an eye opener.

[Grinder]

Well, there is evidence for sloppy research, i.e. the mentioning of dollars instead of nuyen. But yeah, overall I don't like the setup, the setting and the writing style.

[Critias]

See, the dollars/nuyen thing doesn't bug me -- even as nitpicky as I can be about fluff -- because "top dollar" is just a phrase. People still say "it's your dime, pal" in real life when they get a phone call (even though pay phones are, what, like 50 cents or something crazy by now?). I'm sure well into the future some slang terms like "I'll bet you dollars to donuts," and stuff will survive, too, at least for a whle.

So I don't have a big issue with the term "top dollar" still being used in a Shadowrun book, myself. It's not like we got "Item X costs 5 dollars" in an equipment list or something.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Or am I misreading something from the posts folks have made here, describing their issues with this section of War!?

Yes, you are misreading something here, but I' not certain what:

Because it seems to me like lots of the complaints are that the guy "invented" ghosts,

No, he invented "the living dead"Ok, just the "angry and hungry dead" – there's no rumor label in the GM section, even if that was the intent.

"invented" a barrier around the place

No, he turned a spirit barrier into:

It's supposed to be very functionally similar to the one in Ireland.

Which it was not.

[…] rumors about necromantic artifacts […]

And finally, even those are not labeled as rumors to the GM…

(which a GM may or may not want to stat up)

…while telling said GM to even stat up some "rumor" just add insult to injury.

Bottom Line: Did Not Do The Research

PS:

So I don't have a big issue with the term "top dollar" still being used in a Shadowrun book, myself. It's not like we got "Item X costs 5 dollars" in an equipment list or something.

Again, this is not in-character.

[Critias]

When you consider that a book put out six years ago used terms like specters, ghosts, apparitions, hauntings, etc, I think maybe his usage of the "the angry and hungry dead" might not be as big a deal as some of you guys are saying, that's all. He didn't describe them as corporeal or use the word "zombies" or anything, so I think maybe some of you might just be splitting hairs.

What's more, it seems like you're trying to have this both ways. In the actual text of the book (at least according to the quote of it earlier in the thread), he calls it a "spiritual barrier," which sounds like a fair representation of a "spirit barrier" to me. However, now you want to judge him according to the posts he made to try and clarify, so you're complaining about the barrier-around-Ireland comparison.

In the same post, though, you aren't going to go by that clarifying post of his where he calls the necromantic artifacts rumors...you'll hold him strictly to the written text, there. You don't think you're coming off as kind of holding a double standard, there? Going by a forum post when it makes something worse, going by the book when it makes something worse, etc, etc?

Again, if you just don't like it, you don't like it. Like I told Grinder, I'm totally fine with that. It's just that it seems a little unfair to not like what the guy wrote if it jives, canon-wise, with what was in SoE. To claim he doesn't know Shadowrun, didn't do any research, etc, etc, after reading that very section from SoE, seems like y'all are being a little hard on him. He took a story about haunted battle sites and mass graves, and told a story about haunted battle sites and mass graves. I'm not crazy about the dungeon crawl aspect either, but let's not blame him for the dead people scaring and killing the live people, 'cause that bit has been canon for six years, y'know?

But the thing that has me scratching my head here, is when the writers go out of their way to interact with fans and try to clarify things (like this guy did, in his first and so far only post over on the SR4 forums)...you're gonna nitpick your way through his post, pick out the worst of whatever he's said (sometimes a forum post, sometimes the text), and basically do everything possible to shoot down his work.

Do any of you wonder why, given that sort of attitude and response to clarification, most of the writers don't hang out here any more? Really? 'Cause I'm just a guy that's sharing his opinions on what he's reading, offering up some possible explanations for why the book reads like it does, and trying to answer a few questions and let y'all know that we're reading the criticisms -- and even I'm feeling a little roasted, here, as someone that didn't have anything to do with War!.

And I apologize for not knowing what sections are IC versus OOC in a book I've repeatedly said I don't own yet. All I'm doing is going by what people have quoted, and sharing my own opinions (as a reader, not a writer) based on what I'm coming across. I'm not a big fan of there being no clear delineation between IC/OOC sections, myself, just for the record, and I've said so in official freelancing groups (for what it's worth).

Anyways, it's about four in the morning here and I don't work third shift any more, so I'm gonna go crash.

[hermit]

What RvD says.

He didn't describe them as corporeal or use the word "zombies" or anything, so I think maybe some of you might just be splitting hairs.

Since when are shadowrun spirits hungry? And no, demanding a book tie in well with previous publications is not hair splitting in my opinion, it's a base assumption that it should do this. Granted, that's where the line dev comes in (actually, assuring that is a good deal of what he is for), so it's not fair to level this entirely ion the writer, but it still is a major flaw of the book.

In the actual text of the book (at least according to the quote of it earlier in the thread), he calls it a "spiritual barrier," which sounds like a fair representation of a "spirit barrier" to me. However, now you want to judge him according to the posts he made to try and clarify, so you're complaining about the barrier-around-Ireland comparison.

Yes, since he made it actually worse there, displaying he has little to no idea of the setting.

And actually, the TNN veil is not a barrier. It is perfectly possible to sail a ship through the veil without bouncing off of it. The veil is a combination of sensor grids and chaotic world spells and patroling spirits, drones and paracritters. It'S like the Berlin wall on sea with magic. It is NOT a magical dome around the island.

In the same post, though, you aren't going to go by that clarifying post of his where he calls the necromantic artifacts rumors...you'll hold him strictly to the written text, there. So you don't think that's a little double standard-ish of you?

Well, in game info, there should be no room for rumors. Is the stats of a rifle also rumors? I agree that his clarification is slightly better (though, given there is no classic necromancy in shadowrun, it'S still well off), but that doesn't make the writing any better.

And I apologize for not knowing what sections are IC versus OOC in a book I've repeatedly said I don't own yet.

That's spectacularily hard to tell, even if you own the book and have read it. That's one of the major criticisms of the book, actually.

[Critias]

And actually, the TNN veil is not a barrier. It is perfectly possible to sail a ship through the veil without bouncing off of it. The veil is a combination of sensor grids and chaotic world spells and patroling spirits, drones and paracritters. It'S like the Berlin wall on sea with magic. It is NOT a magical dome around the island.

I know that, Hermit. I'm not the guy that said otherwise (just like I'm not the guy that wrote this section of the book). I wasn't defending his TNN veil comparison.

[hermit]

Okay. Just saying that actually made it worse, as you have noted too.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

When you consider that a book put out six years ago used terms like specters, ghosts, apparitions, hauntings, etc, I think maybe his usage of the "the angry and hungry dead" might not be as big a deal as some of you guys are saying, that's all. He didn't describe them as corporeal or use the word "zombies" or anything, so I think maybe some of you might just be splitting hairs.

The issue is with the overall impression of the piece, so all those "minor details" add up to really rub you the wrong way when reading it.

In the actual text of the book (at least according to the quote of it earlier in the thread), he calls it a "spiritual barrier," which sounds like a fair representation of a "spirit barrier" to me. However, now you want to judge him according to the posts he made to try and clarify, so you're complaining about the barrier-around-Ireland comparison.

The main premise of the whole seed is that the barrier was needed to be torn down to go looting. The clarification only points out why the author thought that necessary: He did not understand at all what a spirit barrier is.

In the same post, though, you aren't going to go by that clarifying post of his where he calls the necromantic artifacts rumors...you'll hold him strictly to the written text, there.

So the point is that this whole thing really feels wrong, and that putting a "rumor" label on the necro-stuff would really have helped.

To claim he doesn't know Shadowrun, didn't do any research, etc, etc, after reading that very section from SoE, seems like y'all are being a little hard on him.

Really? It's not hard to put "spirit barrier shadowrun" into Google. It will tell you what this is. It's not hard to look up how ghosts work in SR4, nevermind SR3.