War, HUH! It's out on pdf Options

[Critias]

Again, "overall impression" and "feels wrong" and stuff, I'm cool with. I'm not crazy about it either, myself. I've studied and written enough about the SS, and seen what responses the topic can get even at formal academic conferences, that I'm aware of just what thin ice the subject innately is, and how delicately it should be handled.

I just hate to see a book criticism (or even a sub-chapter of a sub-chapter of a book criticism) turn into personal insults, implications of Nazi sympathizing (which, yes, this thread has had!), and that sort of thing, especially when what he wrote isn't that far off from what's been canon since SoE. It already had angry ghosts, specters, yadda yadda yadda, terrorizing the countryside, so when some of the initial posts were implying that this writer (not whoever handled the section in SoE) was being disrespectful to Holocaust victims, I guess it rubbed me the wrong way.

Anyways, really tired. Sleepy time.

[hobgoblin]

iirc, ghosts have been in SR nearly forever. Grimoire talked about ghosts of various kinds. And that academia could not make up their mind about them being the actual astral remains of someone dead, or just a spirit that is pulling a impressive con job.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

In previous editions, the "it's really the dead" theory for ghosts and ancestor spirits was favored/hinted.

[hermit]

implications of Nazi sympathizing (which, yes, this thread has had!)

If you write Auschwitz as a pop a dead jew, steal his treasure kind of adventure place, it's bound to happen. Can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen, and all that. Also, droning on over fútbol and brown people being weird for loving it sure didn't help.

when some of the initial posts were implying that this writer (not whoever handled the section in SoE) was being disrespectful to Holocaust victims, I guess it rubbed me the wrong way.

To explain: Angry dead jews who mourn and/or hate the livings' guts are okay. It's plausible they're angry and it doesn't degrade the real victims to say they probably are very angry (who wouldn't be). Making an adventure park where you loot treasure of said dead jews and pop them with rifles and labeling it a FUN ADVENTURE in a light hearted way, on the other hand, gives off a different vibe.

Maybe it was unintentional. But it happened.

In previous editions, the "it's really the dead" theory for ghosts and ancestor spirits was favored/hinted.

True, but even then they're still neither hungry nor turning Auschwitz into some sort of Indiana Jones meets Plants vs. Zombies. And solving that in lieu of actual souls breaks a core convention of Shadowrun, on the side.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

And solving that in lieu of actual souls breaks a core convention of Shadowrun, on the side.

Really? Cybermancy is all about that.

[hermit]

It's more about holistic patterns and keeping things together despite everything, at least it can easily be interpreted that way. Cybermancy never said tanything about souls. Not in a definite section, at least.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

No, it just calls it "spirit" in game information: "Combining dangerous metamagical techniques and all the resources of modern medicine, cybermancy creates a cyberzombie, an individual whose departing spirit has been magically forced to inhabit its own body. Though the spirit and the body know they should be dead, the magic and technology used to bind them together sustain both in indefinite unlife."

Good thing it's not called "soul".

[Stahlseele]

So much would have been different, if a mage could have simply gone and said:"i summon his soul and tell him to tell me his secrets and who killed him"

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Hey, Psychometry is cooler anyway.

[hobgoblin]

So much would have been different, if a mage could have simply gone and said:"i summon his soul and tell him to tell me his secrets and who killed him"

There was a example in some book, where a PI got contacted by a ghost that was able to point out evidence that got the killer convicted.

[hermit]

Spirit still is no immortal soul (as the dying's spirit by conventional belief and suggested outgame handling dissolve).

There was a example in some book, where a PI got contacted by a ghost that was able to point out evidence that got the killer convicted.

Still nothing like dumb&dumber's call the dead to ask them shit magic. Ah, SRD20, it finally sees the light.

Next in line: Teleportation. Because the nWoD fallout and the guy Hardy found on the street are incapable of research. Probably a teleporting island full of zombie ninja jews.

[Mäx]

True, but even then they're still neither hungry

Ghost may not be hungry, but they still are extremely malevolent spirits that hate metahumans and like nothing more then killing them(according to Running Wild), so i don't really see the use of phrase "hungry death" as inapproriate.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Just it's misleading, obviously.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

meh.

[hermit]

And even if you gloss over all the canonic inconsistencies in that paragraph (or the entire book for that matter), it STILL does not redeem the fact that it is written shabbily and incoherently, makes no sense and misses the entire point it wants to make by a large margin because it has neither direction nor consistency.

[Cheops]

I had a player that would have loved the Zombie Jews thing. We kicked him out of the group after 1 session. Weird thing is that he was Korean so we weren't sure where the hell the Nazi fetish was coming from.

[Sengir]

So, really, all War! did was knock down the barrier

First of all, it turned an Astral Barrier into an impenetrable magic dome straight from your favourity fantasy cliche. Even if the backstory got changed to incorporate the Silvestrines pimping their barrier, the question would be how they did it. The knowledge to turn a place into a proto-Caer is not exactly commonplace, and I doubt the Tir Elves are trading.

and introduce some guy to spread rumors about necromantic artifacts (which a GM may or may not want to stat up), in order to get people to pay him money and equip themselves to try and go kill ghosts.

So this sounds like an in-character rumor section to you?
As a function of this, when the weapon is in hand, the character is considered distracted and suffers a –4 dice pool modifierer to all Perception Tests. If she attempts to Observe in Detail as a Simple Action, she only suffers a –2 dice pool modifier.
Reach: 0, Damage: (Str/2+4)P, AP: –2, Availability: N/A (unique item), Market Value: 10,000¥
(The weapon in question is the favourite scalpel of Eduard Wirths, the runner's Arbeit which Macht Frei is to recover it)

Ghosts that have been there since SR3, six years ago.

Spirits which are called "ghosts" have been around since some time. However, in tune with the "belief makes reality" approach towards magical traditions, the exact nature of these entities has always been left open to the beliefs of the player/character. They may be the actual spirits of the dead, or they may be malicious impositors, or even just believe that they are the "rebirth" of a certain person (just like some IRL people do). Establishing ghosts, and pre-awakeing one to boot, throws all of these conventions overboard. And it brings a jackload of unfortunate consequences - just imagine what would happen if the ghost of a dead corpsec could get back to point the finger at you.

Additional stuff which does not fit
- The idea of Auschwitz as a "treasure trove" with its "necromatic artifacts". Shadowrun is not your "magic items everywhere" universe. Foci do not pop into existence jsut from being exposed to magic, complete with attunement to the place's background count. They do not take a life of their own. They DO become dual-natured, which the blade in question is not - rules-wise the mysterious magic blade is an ordinary knife with upped stats, not a weapon focus
- - Now let us suppose such an item, which violates everything known about enchanting so far, did indeed exist in the universe. Every corp and research group even remotely involved with magic would pay millions to get a look at it, not a puny 10k.
- Weapons which take down ghosts. Again, this sounds like the magic Sword of Doom +5, not like Shadowrun.
- The "cabal of wizards" thing. Sure, there are magic groups, but it just sounds...I guess I'm repeating myself

[hermit]

but it just sounds...

... like bad writing, no matter how you try to look at it, or try to sell and reinterpret it?

[Ascalaphus]

Using Auschwitz is really, really bad taste.

Sure, it makes sense when discussing the concept of Background Count to reference obvious atrocity sites as an example. Of course Auschwitz would have nasty background count.

Well, that is supposing you can imprint on the astral plane while the mana levels are down. That's a big if.

But an adventure centered around grave-robbing magical items in Auschwitz? That's very very bad. Auschwitz likely wouldn't have powerful magical treasures anyway; no magic was used there. You'd be better off looking through the remains of a magic-related atrocity. Maybe something in Yucatan or in the Chinese successor states.

That would also fit better with the Shadowrun style of disguising these ethnic conflicts. Shadowrunfeatures almost no latino-negro-whitey racism at all. Instead there are orks, trolls, conspiratorial elf-states and so forth. An adventure like this should have been set in one of the concentration camps intended to kill the Native Americans during the SAIM period.

[Mäx]

- Now let us suppose such an item, which violates everything known about enchanting so far, did indeed exist in the universe. Every corp and research group even remotely involved with magic would pay millions to get a look at it, not a puny 10k.

So i guess you havent read the rules for creating unigue enchaments(Digital crimoire page 8 )

[Megu]

I had a player that would have loved the Zombie Jews thing. We kicked him out of the group after 1 session. Weird thing is that he was Korean so we weren't sure where the hell the Nazi fetish was coming from.

That actually makes a lot of sense then. The Nazi thing isn't as strong a taboo in the East, I think.

[Prime Mover]

Any word on errata for HeeVeeBar yet?

[CanRay]

So... How are those Edits for "War! V1.1" going, CGL Reps?

[otakusensei]

So i guess you havent read the rules for creating unigue enchaments(Digital crimoire page 8 )

Have you read that section? It can make an item similar to what is described, but in function only. You need to specifically make a formula for it and basically perform a quest to get the chance to make one. This is an artifact that was just a common medical implement from a down cycle that became magical purely from it's own history. That's Earthdawn shit right there. And the lack of understanding goes back to show the writers lack of research; and developments lack of care, understanding or support of their own staff.

The worst bit? The last few pages have just been putting the microscope on one turd in the sewer.

[Sengir]

So i guess you havent read the rules for creating unigue enchaments(Digital crimoire page 8 )

Uhm, unique enchantments are exactly the opposite direction of foci coming into existence spontanueously. A unique enchantment basically is a storytelling opportunity, requiring mystic shenanigans with an epic feel to them and the aquisition of ingredient in obscure locations. Oh, and they still are dual-natured, not simply knives with upped stats (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Sure, you could go the "Nazi mysticism" angle and proclaim that all the experimentation in fact were sophisticated magic rituals. Because let's face it, there's something inherently cool about Wolfenstein-ish Nazi occultism. That would solve some of the mechanic problems, but only aggrevate the other ones:
1.) Massive Nazi magic has never been part of the setting. And given the effects of magic involving killing people (hello Ghost Dance) you'd think somebody should have noticed.
2.) A pre-awakening artifact, from a tradition which is probably beyond toxic on the threat scale. That's some epic item you'd expect to see at the end of the DotA series, complete with an impossible choice who should get it. Not some trivia picked up in a one-shot and then pawned for 10.000.