War, HUH! It's out on pdf Options

[Kagetenshi]

When you consider that a book put out six years ago used terms like specters, ghosts, apparitions, hauntings, etc, I think maybe his usage of the "the angry and hungry dead" might not be as big a deal as some of you guys are saying, that's all.

The section you quoted gives a page reference to the appropriate part of MitS where Ghosts are described in omniscient GM-directed text as spirits, not living dead.

Now, this is Shadowrun, so the page reference is off by two pages—but at least it's two pages into the description of ghosts, so the writer couldn't have looked at the page, thought "there's nothing here, what were they talking about", and moved on.

~J

[Sengir]

So i guess you havent read the rules for creating unigue enchaments(Digital crimoire page 8 )

Uhm, unique enchantments are exactly the opposite direction of foci coming into existence spontanueously. A unique enchantment basically is a storytelling opportunity, requiring mystic shenanigans with an epic feel to them and the aquisition of ingredient in obscure locations. Oh, and they still are dual-natured, not simply knives with upped stats (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Sure, you could go the "Nazi mysticism" angle and proclaim that all the experimentation in fact were sophisticated magic rituals. Because let's face it, there's something inherently cool about Wolfenstein-ish Nazi occultism. That would solve some of the mechanic problems, but only aggrevate the other ones:
1.) Massive Nazi magic has never been part of the setting. And given the effects of magic involving killing people (hello Ghost Dance) you'd think somebody should have noticed.
2.) A pre-awakening artifact, from a tradition which is probably beyond toxic on the threat scale. That's some epic item you'd expect to see at the end of the DotA series, complete with an impossible choice who should get it. Not some trivia picked up in a one-shot and then pawned for 10.000.


PS: Something else entirely - Are you guys also seeing very sloooow scrolling speeds and more than just noticable delays before certain elements on a page are displayed? Using Adobe Reader x64 here.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Additional stuff which does not fit
- The idea of Auschwitz as a "treasure trove" with its "necromatic artifacts". Shadowrun is not your "magic items everywhere" universe. Foci do not pop into existence jsut from being exposed to magic, complete with attunement to the place's background count. They do not take a life of their own. They DO become dual-natured, which the blade in question is not - rules-wise the mysterious magic blade is an ordinary knife with upped stats, not a weapon focus

Or they could be, you know, necromantic artifacts that have absolutely no power. I would think that there would be some traditions that would relish the ideas that the bones of the Holocaust Victims hold great power in the right hands. They coulb be, afterall, ritual links if nothing else. And ritual links to some pretty powerful and pissed off spirits (or ghosts if you will, per the text). I

- - Now let us suppose such an item, which violates everything known about enchanting so far, did indeed exist in the universe. Every corp and research group even remotely involved with magic would pay millions to get a look at it, not a puny 10k.

Again, why do these "Necromantic Artifacts" need to have actual power to be a story hook? As a necromancer Path Tradition (Yes, I have that in my game), this would be a Treasure Trove of Artifacts, if for no other reason than the Links they could provide to the Ghosts on site.

- Weapons which take down ghosts. Again, this sounds like the magic Sword of Doom +5, not like Shadowrun.

Because there are absolutely no weapons (Handheld at that) that can deal with Spirits at all in Game Canon.

- The "cabal of wizards" thing. Sure, there are magic groups, but it just sounds...I guess I'm repeating myself

Sorry, Not seeing it... There ARE large Cabals of Wizards in game, many of them competing Traditions of Magic. Not sure why you really have such a problem with this at all...

I like the Book. Does it have some Formatting and Editing Problems? Most definitely... Is it a waste of my time and money? Absolutely not.

[KarmaInferno]

Tymeaus and Hermit having the same avatar is slightly confusing.





-k

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tymeaus and Hermit having the same avatar is slightly confusing.

-k

Indeed, Gives me a complex from time to time... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[InfinityzeN]

PS: Something else entirely - Are you guys also seeing very sloooow scrolling speeds and more than just noticable delays before certain elements on a page are displayed? Using Adobe Reader x64 here.

Adobe Reader is crap. Try Foxit Reader which has none of the scrolling problems and delays in certain elements.

[Sengir]

Or they could be, you know, necromantic artifacts that have absolutely no power. I would think that there would be some traditions that would relish the ideas that the bones of the Holocaust Victims hold great power in the right hands. They coulb be, afterall, ritual links if nothing else. And ritual links to some pretty powerful and pissed off spirits (or ghosts if you will, per the text).

See the rules text I quoted. Not exactly a section for in-character rumors

Sorry, Not seeing it... There ARE large Cabals of Wizards in game, many of them competing Traditions of Magic. Not sure why you really have such a problem with this at all...

Yes, but they are not called like that. "Cabals of Wizards" IMO is typically run-of-the-mill fantasy lingo, SR uses different terms. And this undertone is precisely why I picked this section as an example: Like many other parts of the book, reads like the author had zero clue about the rules and fluff of the subject at hand.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

See the rules text I quoted. Not exactly a section for in-character rumors


Yes, but they are not called like that. "Cabals of Wizards" IMO is typically run-of-the-mill fantasy lingo, SR uses different terms. And this undertone is precisely why I picked this section as an example: Like many other parts of the book, reads like the author had zero clue about the rules and fluff of the subject at hand.

Maybe I am just not as sensitive about it I guess... In Game (for us at least), there are many "Cabals" we have dealt with... Probably why it does not bother me so much. There are a lot of possible names for such collections of individuals, and we have probably heard them all during game play, dependant upon the views of the individual characters being portrayed.

No worries...

[Sengir]

The "feel" of a scenario is a pretty subjective affair I'd say...

[otakusensei]

Indeed, Gives me a complex from time to time... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

TJ,

You do realize that you're rationalizing the section, right? The author posted over on the official forums with a series of answers that were nearly as bad as the published section that brought up the questions. But before that, he made this:

One particular implement from his experiments, a rusted old scalpel, was left in the labs. Over many years, it was energized by the various ghosts passing by it, feeding off their death energies. At this point, it’s taken on a life of its own. The rusty old scalpel craves death. It only finds itself at home when flush with warm blood. Although this makes it a remarkably effective weapon, anyone holding it is subject to the sounds of its past victims.

Death energies... ok. No page ref on those. Stolen essence or karma? How? It's more rationalizing, the section just doesn't quite fit.

Stat-wise, it's a quiet vibroblade knife. But fluff-wise it's completely out of the scope of the game. It's stats don't make sense for a magical weapon. It's cost doesn't make sense considering it's construction. It's location and the difficulty to acquire it in relationship to it's stated value is ludicrous. In attempting to help GMs come up with a plot for a game, the author has broken the constancy of the game.

Bad juju isn't the same as Enchanting, and if it is I expect to see the damn rules. Asside for that, If CGL hires a writer to cover a setting like Auschwitz I expect them to understand the established rules that govern the place. If CGL is going to publish that section, I expect them to verify that work is consistent. Double fail here.

In play, chances are you would buy a weapon with the same stats just to go get it. To get it, you have to go into Auschwitz. Why not just go home with the vibroblade? Sure you have to plug it in at night, but no penalty to perception! It's like the major draw for going there is to disrupt the spirits of the place. Something the catholic church was unable to do to any satisfaction. It was also implied by the writer that the players may want to take "spirit bombs" for some such nonsense in. Does it really take an arms dealer to do that when the church was supposed to be maintaining the barrier? Where are the Sylvesterines now? More likely, the writer had no idea when he wrote the section.

It all leads back to a larger issue: The ongoing quality and consistency of the game itself.

I run a Shadowrun game at a local game shop. One of the stipulations is that the games run there need to be canon, so that any new players get a feel for the game as published. How am I supposed to deal with this? What if one of my newer players reads this? What do I tell him? I'm a representative of the store, and the store sells CGL product. I'm not going to lie, but can I point out these inconsistencies? I don't like the position I'm put in by the poor quality of this book. I still run another game on the side but it looks like I'm going to have to stop running at the store and that's bullshit.

Fuck, once this book hits shelves, how do I deal with everyone taking Spell Knack and Slow? There are only so many time you can throw a murdercycle at someone. Wait, weight-wise I'm going to have to make murdertrucks or something...

Fuck

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Fuck, once this book hits shelves, how do I deal with everyone taking Spell Knack and Slow? There are only so many time you can throw a murdercycle at someone. Wait, weight-wise I'm going to have to make murdertrucks or something...

Consider this errata "the spell ends when the caster stops sustaining it or the amount of mass moving in the area of effect exceeds 200 kg per hit on the Spellcasting Test."

This is enough to balance the spell considering its already high drain.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

TJ,

Death energies... ok. No page ref on those. Stolen essence or karma? How? It's more rationalizing, the section just doesn't quite fit.

Stat-wise, it's a quiet vibroblade knife. But fluff-wise it's completely out of the scope of the game. It's stats don't make sense for a magical weapon. It's cost doesn't make sense considering it's construction. It's location and the difficulty to acquire it in relationship to it's stated value is ludicrous. In attempting to help GMs come up with a plot for a game, the author has broken the constancy of the game.

Bad juju isn't the same as Enchanting, and if it is I expect to see the damn rules. Asside for that, If CGL hires a writer to cover a setting like Auschwitz I expect them to understand the established rules that govern the place. If CGL is going to publish that section, I expect them to verify that work is consistent. Double fail here.

In play, chances are you would buy a weapon with the same stats just to go get it. To get it, you have to go into Auschwitz. Why not just go home with the vibroblade? Sure you have to plug it in at night, but no penalty to perception! It's like the major draw for going there is to disrupt the spirits of the place. Something the catholic church was unable to do to any satisfaction. It was also implied by the writer that the players may want to take "spirit bombs" for some such nonsense in. Does it really take an arms dealer to do that when the church was supposed to be maintaining the barrier? Where are the Sylvesterines now? More likely, the writer had no idea when he wrote the section.

See, I see all of this as a Plot Hook... maybe a badly written one, but a hook nonetheless. Also, I tend to look at such things and make them fit. In my opinion, I would use much of the text as personal opinion... no more right than someone else's opinion in game. Is some of it badly statted out? probably. Is there some ionconsistencies? Maybe. But I take the stuff given, massage it a bit with what I perceive the intent is and then repackage it a bit. Honestly, that has not changed since SR1. Not everything is going to fit as written into any given game.

As for the Death Energies and Imprinting due to proximity... That is what the Metamagic: Psychometry is all about. In my opinion, the psychic scar left by the Nazi Death Camps is quite severe. There SHOULD be ramifications of this in the game, if you are going to use the sites in any capacity. I tend not to use such things, as it tends to make a lot of people uncomfortable. However, I can not fault someone for wanting to portray something like this. As I said in an earlier post, I see a great deal of potential in the "Necromantic Artifacts" presented above. No, there are no mechanics... Yes, it is badly written... But there is great potential in their application in a game. And I, for one, would probably include the Nazi Occultism in my scenario as the core basis for such things if I used them at all. There have been Mana Spikes in the past, and will probably continue to be so. Who is to say that the Camps did not share proximity to such an event during the War? As for the Scalpel itself... Lots of Flavour there, even if it is no better than the Vibro Knife... My Necromancer would love to study it in depth. Could provide many, many adventures in and of itself in my opinion.

What you seem to be saying above is that the writer should have provided everything , including all the answers. I tend to disagree. Where are the Sylvestrines indeed? I would provide that answer in a gmae that I ran, because I do not want some one else's opinion on that. And even if provided, 9 times out of 10, it would likely clash with what I want to do anyways. Yes, the Catholic Church has had issues with Auswitch in the past, and still apparently has these issues. Soem idiot went in and disrupted the whole shooting match... My question would be this. How would you fix it in game? I see a HUGE backlash as the individuals concerned start to become involved. I see opportunity where others see crap. Guess that is just me.

Now, I am not saying the piece is not written poorly, by any means. And yes, there are some inconsistencies. However, I see opportunity in these inconsistencies, rather than travesty.

It all leads back to a larger issue: The ongoing quality and consistency of the game itself.

I run a Shadowrun game at a local game shop. One of the stipulations is that the games run there need to be canon, so that any new players get a feel for the game as published. How am I supposed to deal with this? What if one of my newer players reads this? What do I tell him? I'm a representative of the store, and the store sells CGL product. I'm not going to lie, but can I point out these inconsistencies? I don't like the position I'm put in by the poor quality of this book. I still run another game on the side but it looks like I'm going to have to stop running at the store and that's bullshit.

Once this book hits shelves, how do I deal with everyone taking Spell Knack and Slow? There are only so many time you can throw a murdercycle at someone. Wait, weight-wise I'm going to have to make murdertrucks or something...

I do understand your frustration. I would assume that you will deal with the publication of this book like you have with others over the years that you may have had issue with (I am sure that you have had issues with other books, probably even those not produced by the Current Writers/Line Developer). You will judiciously apply whatever logic you use to approve characters and allow things that you allow. Not sure how you will deal with the inconsistencies. I have indicated what I would do, but that may not work for you (or it might, who knows)...

Besides... Why use a Murder Truck? I have never had any difficulties with just plain old firepower and its judicious use, to solve problems in game. No one is totally immune to everything afterall... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[otakusensei]

See, I see all of this as a Plot Hook... maybe a badly written one, but a hook nonetheless. Also, I tend to look at such things and make them fit. In my opinion, I would use much of the text as personal opinion... no more right than someone else's opinion in game. Is some of it badly statted out? probably. Is there some ionconsistencies? Maybe. But I take the stuff given, massage it a bit with what I perceive the intent is and then repackage it a bit. Honestly, that has not changed since SR1. Not everything is going to fit as written into any given game.

As for the Death Energies and Imprinting due to proximity... That is what the Metamagic: Psychometry is all about. In my opinion, the psychic scar left by the Nazi Death Camps is quite severe. There SHOULD be ramifications of this in the game, if you are going to use the sites in any capacity. I tend not to use such things, as it tends to make a lot of people uncomfortable. However, I can not fault someone for wanting to portray something like this. As I said in an earlier post, I see a great deal of potential in the "Necromantic Artifacts" presented above. No, there are no mechanics... Yes, it is badly written... But there is great potential in their application in a game. And I, for one, would probably include the Nazi Occultism in my scenario as the core basis for such things if I used them at all. There have been Mana Spikes in the past, and will probably continue to be so. Who is to say that the Camps did not share proximity to such an event during the War? As for the Scalpel itself... Lots of Flavour there, even if it is no better than the Vibro Knife... My Necromancer would love to study it in depth. Could provide many, many adventures in and of itself in my opinion.

What you seem to be saying above is that the writer should have provided everything , including all the answers. I tend to disagree. Where are the Sylvestrines indeed? I would provide that answer in a gmae that I ran, because I do not want some one else's opinion on that. And even if provided, 9 times out of 10, it would likely clash with what I want to do anyways. Yes, the Catholic Church has had issues with Auswitch in the past, and still apparently has these issues. Soem idiot went in and disrupted the whole shooting match... My question would be this. How would you fix it in game? I see a HUGE backlash as the individuals concerned start to become involved. I see opportunity where others see crap. Guess that is just me.

Now, I am not saying the piece is not written poorly, by any means. And yes, there are some inconsistencies. However, I see opportunity in these inconsistencies, rather than travesty.

We all tailor the game to our own tastes, but seriously, you consider this on par? I've been going back and doing a bit of referencing over the last day and a half and I'm frequently running into the simple difference in presentation that previous books had and War! lacks. I don't expect to agree and implement everything that gets printed, but I shouldn't have to polish turds just keep my table sane. This book actually makes it more difficult to be a Shadowrun GM, and that's just wrong.

I do understand your frustration. I would assume that you will deal with the publication of this book like you have with others over the years that you may have had issue with (I am sure that you have had issues with other books, probably even those not produced by the Current Writers/Line Developer). You will judiciously apply whatever logic you use to approve characters and allow things that you allow. Not sure how you will deal with the inconsistencies. I have indicated what I would do, but that may not work for you (or it might, who knows)...

Besides... Why use a Murder Truck? I have never had any difficulties with just plain old firepower and its judicious use, to solve problems in game. No one is totally immune to everything afterall... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Weight issue. I have to throw more weight at the player than they can counter with force. Or think of another way to undermine the spell completely. But along with murdertruck deaths, the players will only suffer so many gas attacks. The question though is: In a game with so much gun-porn as Shadowrun, why make a spell that renders them useless at force 1?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

We all tailor the game to our own tastes, but seriously, you consider this on par? I've been going back and doing a bit of referencing over the last day and a half and I'm frequently running into the simple difference in presentation that previous books had and War! lacks. I don't expect to agree and implement everything that gets printed, but I shouldn't have to polish turds just keep my table sane. This book actually makes it more difficult to be a Shadowrun GM, and that's just wrong.

Point Taken...

Weight issue. I have to throw more weight at the player than they can counter with force. Or think of another way to undermine the spell completely. But along with murdertruck deaths, the players will only suffer so many gas attacks. The question though is: In a game with so much gun-porn as Shadowrun, why make a spell that renders them useless at force 1?

Must have missed something in the spell... give me a second to reference: Interesting Indeed... It is obviously meant to be a Reverse of Levitate, to some degree, with intreesting side effects such as slowing bullets.

2 Tactics...

1. Do not allow the spell to affect anything without Movement Capabilites... After all, Bullets and Explosive Force do not have any Movement Stats in Shadowrun. Easiest Fix. After all, Falling imparts movement, as does driving a vehicle or running, or whatever. There is no wave propogation movement, nor speed for a Bullet (or any Weapons for that matter).

2. Calculate equivalent Foot Pounds of Energy... and then apply hits to check equivalent weights (After Object Resistance for Unattended Objects of course). Tedious and a waste of time in my opinion.

My Preference would be the First method. It is obviously a difference in the Fluff vs. the Mecahnics of the Spell.

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Kagetenshi]

Consider this errata "the spell ends when the caster stops sustaining it or the amount of mass moving in the area of effect exceeds 200 kg per hit on the Spellcasting Test."

This is enough to balance the spell considering its already high drain.

Doesn't work—even if we forget about "down" and all the heavy earth that's frequently in that direction, and we disregard the mass of air, you're still creating a spell with immensely fiddly bookkeeping that can't be used anywhere within AoE of any kind of building or tree or other large object.

~J

[hermit]

An adventure like this should have been set in one of the concentration camps intended to kill the Native Americans during the SAIM period.

To make up a question by the author, "Why would anyone in Aztlan want to kill off all the native Americans? Mexicans kinda like are Native American Nation themselves after all."

[Kagetenshi]

Er? That one's stretching, I think—it requires connections that would only come from background knowledge, rather than being explainable by simple ignorance compounded by Dunning-Kruger.

~J

[hermit]

Fair point.

"I didn't know Nazis took over America once. When was that? I totally sense a tie-in to the Nadias story Jason wants me to write up!"

Better?

Also: maps detailing the warzone, though not the front, courtesy of someone who endures the Pegasus forums.

[CanRay]

OK, how about this: Final say, PDF Format book: Worth the purchase price?

[hermit]

FUCK NO!

If I had any chance at all, I'd send it back to get my damn money back. Just don't.

[Grinder]

See, I see all of this as a Plot Hook... maybe a badly written one, but a hook nonetheless. Also, I tend to look at such things and make them fit. In my opinion, I would use much of the text as personal opinion... no more right than someone else's opinion in game. Is some of it badly statted out? probably. Is there some ionconsistencies? Maybe. But I take the stuff given, massage it a bit with what I perceive the intent is and then repackage it a bit. Honestly, that has not changed since SR1. Not everything is going to fit as written into any given game.
[...]
Now, I am not saying the piece is not written poorly, by any means. And yes, there are some inconsistencies. However, I see opportunity in these inconsistencies, rather than travesty.

That reads as if you'd accept any piece of crap as long as it's published in an offical book. Writers do have to meet certain quality standards, think about it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Mäx]

OK, how about this: Final say, PDF Format book: Worth the purchase price?

It depends on many thinks, for one if you have no use on info about Bogota, then somethink like half the book is totally useless to you.
But the other half has a pretty nice chapter about mercenaries and then there's the game information section containing new rules( i especially like the rules for large and extra large dicepools, as well as the expanded grenade rules) new gear like the cool addition of Battle Rifles, actually working fighter jets(have more then one normal weapon mount), wingsuit, multiple kind of mines and some other nice stuff.

I would say yes and definedly yes if you have use for the Bogota info dump.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

OK, how about this: Final say, PDF Format book: Worth the purchase price?

I would say yes...

[imperialus]

OK, how about this: Final say, PDF Format book: Worth the purchase price?

I'd say the PDF is worth it.

There are issues with it. Most of them have been hashed out ad-nausm here. I think that most of them (Auswitz and HP rounds as examples) have been blown totally out of porportion.

Of course your milage may vary.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That reads as if you'd accept any piece of crap as long as it's published in an offical book. Writers do have to meet certain quality standards, think about it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Not really, I will only buy the stuff that interests me, regardless of whether it is a prize-winning document or not...

That being said, War Interests me... there are a LOT of Shadowrun Books that I do not own, usually due to lack of interest or because I like what I have done better... Personal Choice and all that. Anyways, I like a lot of what is in War, even if some of it needs a bit of work.

Yes, there should be standards, and I am sure that we have beat that dead horse more than enough. After all the complaining (and no one's attempt to do any better, currently all I see is a lot of complaints), the book is still very, very useful in my opinion, even if a few people do not like it...

No Worries though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)