War, HUH! It's out on pdf Options

[Rotbart van Dain...]

OK, how about this: Final say, PDF Format book: Worth the purchase price?

Only if you really, deeply care about Bogota. Deep enough to go through over hundred pages worth of it.

Otherwise? Perhaps half the price, for the power creep half.

[Grinder]

and no one's attempt to do any better, currently all I see is a lot of complaints

Speaking of the Auschwitz-dungeon crawl? I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole. If I would decide to use Auschwitz as a setting of a Shadowrun game, it wouldn't deal with necromantic artifacts or some of the other shit that the current setup has. Re-writing the piece in War! to something fitting the setting while still keeping the main idea (dungeon crawl, evil spirits, pricecless artifacts) is impossible imo.

[hermit]

and no one's attempt to do any better

Well, there's mine. I guess somewhere between all those dots you write and confusing spelling in a forum post and pay product, you missed that, so no worries. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Besides, if you pay money for something you have a right to complain if you feel it is of sub-par quality. If you buy a car and find out the engine's missing and the windows fall out on your first drive, that is not a good car, and you don't need to design a better to get a refund and have a right to vehemently complain. There's laws covering that. Where the hell do you take the idea from that you have to write a better War! (not that this would be too hard to do) to have any right to complain anyway?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Speaking of the Auschwitz-dungeon crawl? I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole. If I would decide to use Auschwitz as a setting of a Shadowrun game, it wouldn't deal with necromantic artifacts or some of the other shit that the current setup has. Re-writing the piece in War! to something fitting the setting while still keeping the main idea (dungeon crawl, evil spirits, pricecless artifacts) is impossible imo.

Indeed, which is why I would never use it as a "Dungeon Crawl" type of setting... Yes, it needs work, but there ar some interesting ideas within the chaff there... even if it will require some work to polish up and present it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Grinder]

So.... you do agree that the setup as presented in War! is impossible to re-work into something usable? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Grinder]

Well, there's mine.

Beat me to it; just wanted to provide a link to your project.

[JongWK]

OK, how about this: Final say, PDF Format book: Worth the purchase price?

No.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So.... you do agree that the setup as presented in War! is impossible to re-work into something usable? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

@Grinder...
No, with enough effort, anything can be made useable... just depends upon how much mork you are willing to put into the effort. Me Personnally? I would take from it what I like and discard the rest. Lot of interesting ideas. Some can work... most will need tweaking to be AT LEAST useable...


As far as you go Hermit...

Well, there's mine. I guess somewhere between all those dots you write and confusing spelling in a forum post and pay product, you missed that, so no worries.

Because English is your Second language (apparently), I can forgive you some of your spelling mistakes, though you still seem to perpetuate them in almost every post, so you obviously make no effort to actually look for them, much as you accuse others of doing. And I make no apologies for the use of Elipses...

AND, I did not MISS your attempt. Currently, all it is is a bunch of hype, and no substance. Maybe when you have actual substance there, rather than vaporware, I might change my mind. Untill then? Well... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Besides, if you pay money for something you have a right to complain if you feel it is of sub-par quality. If you buy a car and find out the engine's missing and the windows fall out on your first drive, that is not a good car, and you don't need to design a better to get a refund and have a right to vehemently complain. There's laws covering that. Where the hell do you take the idea from that you have to write a better War! (not that this would be too hard to do) to have any right to complain anyway?

You are right... you have a right to complain, you did indeed pay money for the product. But, in my opinion, you far exceeded that right many pages ago. Everyone here gets it, you are unhappy with the product. You do not have to keep going on about it. There are at least a few others who disagree with you. Your constant hyping of the issue is not going to change that one iota.

How about being a bit more constructive and actually work on the War 2.0 Supplement that you are putting forth (I have read the thread by the way). It would go a long ways to proving that you are much more capable than those who write professionally for a living. Until then, all I hear is useless complaints. Or better yet, how about some constructive assistance in how to actually use what is put in print in the book. There are a LOT of interesting ideas there. Not once have I seen any acknowledgement of that in any of your posts. Rather than being so negative about how everyone is so incompetent in the execution of the product, maybe you can find something worth being positive about. Then again, maybe not... *Sigh*

Anyways. Enjoy your weekend. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Mäx]

maybe you can find something worth being positive about.

Never gonna happen

[Grinder]

Keep it civil. No need for postings that are close to personal attacks.

[Grinder]

[b]@Grinder[/b]...
No, with enough effort, anything can be made useable... just depends upon how much mork you are willing to put into the effort. Me Personnally? I would take from it what I like and discard the rest. Lot of interesting ideas. Some can work... most will need tweaking to be AT LEAST useable...

You're the Perfect Customer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[hermit]

Because English is your Second language (apparently), I can forgive you some of your spelling mistakes, though you still seem to perpetuate them in almost every post, so you obviously make no effort to actually look for them, much as you accuse others of doing.

You still don't get it. You really do not understand the difference between a web forum and print product containing spelling errors. I am undecided if this is depressing or amusing.

Ausserdem, mein ('vermutlich') amerikanischer Freund, was heisst hier 'anscheinend'? Naja, du kannst das ja eh sicher nicht verstehen, aber ich wuerde doch gerne mal sehen wie du dich in irgendeiner anderen Sprache schlägst. 'Vermutlich' schlecht. Und deine Beherrschung von Adverbien ist so katastrophal wie bei fast allen Amerikanern (und mit den Verben hast du es ja auch nur bedingt), nur so nebenbei angemerkt, also lehn dich mal besser nicht so weit aus dem Fenster.

You are right... you have a right to complain, you did indeed pay money for the product. But, in my opinion, you far exceeded that right many pages ago. (...) how about some constructive assistance in how to actually use what is put in print in the book. There are a LOT of interesting ideas there. Not once have I seen any acknowledgement of that in any of your posts.

Firstly, that is not my duty. I am neither being paid by this (as I hope the authors of this turd are, as they are liable to, no matter the quality of their work) nor do I, the customer, have any obligation to work in my time to make a better product. That is what I paid the producer money for. Secondly, I am neither obliged to sugarcoat my complaints with kind words and whatnot. I can also spread the word about the awfulness of the product - actually, I am morally obliged to to prevent the company ripping other potential customers off with flawed, broken and/or overpriced product.

And you can do nothing about that.

Rather than being so negative about how everyone is so incompetent in the execution of the product, maybe you can find something worth being positive about.

I really, honestly cannot. The closest thing I can say is that a) the artwork's nice, even if placed totally arbitrarily and often in no cohesion with the text it illustrates, and b) the matrix gear up to level 10 is an okay addition I played with as a house rule for some time (our prices were higher though, and it went up to 12). But that's really little bits. the vast majority of the book really is just ... bad. In every way imaginable. Writing, editing, ideas, execution, composition, the way it rapes canon, the way it is internally incoherent. Nothing redeeming about this book.

[otakusensei]

Shit is shitty, story at 11.

There's a tenancy to trust and stand by official information, to prop it up and rationalize it regardless of it's worth or veracity. People need to get over when it comes to Shadowrun, it's like copyright induced Stockholm Syndrome. This book really isn't as well thought out as some web supplements, and that is a bad thing. CGL should be brought to task for that, not praised for managing to get a subpar PDF together every 4 or 5 months. There are quite a few people who feel that CGL isn't the best company to be continuing with the line, and this is evidence of that.

No one is ever going to make a product that makes everyone happy, but War! is actually a bad thing for the game as a whole.

[Nath]

Finished the book yesterday, cover to cover, so I'm putting out some sort of review, instead of answering to a dozen of different posts in this thread.

War! breaks down the following way : pages 5 to 114 are about Bogota and the ongoing war, page 115 to 126 describes the so-called Global Hotspots, pages 129 to 152 are new rules, pages 153 to 180 are new gear, drones, vehicles and a handful of spells and powers.

BOGOTA

I'm not certainly no big fan of Catalyst work on the last sourcebooks and adventures. I'm pretty sure a lot of people will disagree with me (some reasonably, some other because CGL bashing is
popular these days) but I found the Bogota setting to be good. It has been a long time since I read a location sourcebook and tell myself "this plot/scene/character will be great" that many times (I actually think the last time was reading the 1st edition Seattle sourcebook). Maybe it's because it suits well my gming style.

Flavor-wise, I would have used spanish names a lot more of often, or at least provice translations. The Iraqi metaphor is more or less subtle. In some case, the comparaison with Beirut in 1982 would be more appropriate. I don't know Colombia well enough to say if the local tribes should play a role as strong as the Iraqi tribes do. I still don't get how or why there still are "rich and filthy" type people and students living in Bogota, considering the hellhole the place has become, and it's still not clear to me how the 12 millions of people living in here are fed. There may be some place left untouched by war. But how are we supposed to know, since the books does not feature a single map of Bogota, or the region at large ? And that is my first major complaint.

I can understand CGL has no people available that is able to draw a map. I would then advise them to search for one, quickly.

There is also no detailed timeline of the war, past the triggering event on November 13th, 2072. By the way, the Jackpoint login page says February, 2073, but there are reference to events in April and May of the same year (pages 39 and 53). More freedom to the gamemaster this way I guess.

Another major complaint is the global organization of the book, or lack thereof. I can understand info on Aztlan and Amazonian operations to be spread throughout the book. Not so much for particular detail on say, the neighborhoods controlled by toxic spirits. It would make sense to have it in the "Bogota Neighborhoods chapter", no ? Some things look like plain mistake : the only thing relevant to Bogota culture in the chapter carrying that title is a boxed content about "Important cultural festivals in Bogota". All the rest of the chapter is about the power players in Bogota, plus a box about... tips for rainforest survival ? The Bogota History section chapter is 18 pages long of dense text with only one sub-section. And while discussing how the war started, we get a full page of info on Sangre del Drago tree, with zero relevance to the topic (by the way, how do we got to know about this, since the very point of that event is that the team sent to infiltrate the lab did not make it out ?).
Skimming through this book to find one specific piece of information is going to be a nightmare. without the PDF search function, I would probably not even try.

Still, Bogota appears (to me) as a great "sandbox" for game. Too bad the book only provides one adventure idea related to the conflict, while each of the other hotspots gets a handful. Only 5 more are given which are not location specific.

Following are a few more specific issues. I also posted some errata on the official forum.

- Page 23, the text says the olaya and Andes cartels were "cultivating tempo in and around Bogota". This is not at all in line with Ghost Cartels.

- Page 24. "By May 2072, eleven months after they began the project and six months after the project was scheduled to be completed, Aztlan finally gave up on their plans for finishing the wall."
- Page 51. "When hostilities started to escalate out of control in Bogotá, [Black Star] leadership decided it was the perfect opportunity to help the local citizens protect themselves from Aztlan and Aztechnology aggression and tyranny, and to train them on how to strike back. And so in early 2071, we set up base inside Bogotá."
This means Aztlan started building the wall in June 2071, which was well ahead of any conclusion in the tempo arc. The Black Star was even faster. Still, there is no clue of any escalation prior to the strikes against the Olaya cartel in November 2071.

- Page 31. Frosty mentions the dragons' "inherent ability to alter fate" in-context.

- Page 54. "Normally operating out of (and limiting itself to) the Pacific region, once Tsunami saw MET2000 taking advantage of the escalating violence in Bogotá and the great need for capable mercenaries, it began to move some of its members into that theatre."
- Page 55. "Another deficiency for Tsunami mercenaries is the fact that they are so experienced working in a different part of the world that they tend to draw attention to themselves"
Seems quite contradictory. Besides, Bogota is less than 400 kilometers away from the Pacific Ocean.

- Page 62. Big problem here. The text appears to be, like everything else, written in context and posted by someone on Jackpoint, and commented by other users. So, does this mean that Dezzy Tocanna has been openly exposed on the Matrix as a traitor working for the David cartel. And it doesn't even prompt someone to post a comment ?
Even better, the runner called Angel is bluntly said to have a "magically enhanced sniper riffle". Such a claim should deserve at least three pages of comments from the Jackpoint community...

- Page 68. Having Ares military units working for Aztechnology may make some sort of sense as Aztechnology is playing the US side. But I think it falls short of an explanation, as Ares and Aztechnology have not been exactly the best buddies around during the last twenty years. I can't really picture them uniting against Amazonia. As Hestaby is moving against Sirrurg, she could get the Draco Foundation and Arthur Vogel to support the move. It could be an explanation (and a good plot), but we're not given anything.

- Page 89. The issue with GPS underground is already worked on IRL by the DARPA : search for "Sferics-Based Underground Geopositioning"

- Page 108. "The Capitolio National building is not safe, and large portions of it do not exist."
I guess it should read "no longer exist" ?

- Page 110. "To prevent Aztlan or Aztechnology from complaining to the Corporate Court about Horizon unfairly interfering and influencing the local politics of the region, Horizon promised an objective perspective in its news reports"
Seriously ?

- Page 110. "Established in 2049, a few months after the Veracruz Settlement the Abyss was originally named “The Enlightened,”
Veracruz settlement was signed on March 29, 2048, according to Sixth World Almanac, page 66. So the few months are a minimum of 11, and I still don't get what it has to do with a club opening.

I'd also direct people to the reread the old Corporate Download. Did you know that, back then, Aztechnology wasn't all about blood magic, that blood mages were dwelling in numbers among the corporations. In War!, it's like every mage in the Aztechnology Corporate Security and the Aztlan military is a blood mages. Can't blame it on Catalyst people though, a lot of people think just like them.


GLOBAL HOTSPOTS

As much as I liked the Bogota settings, the global hotspots not. This section completely goes out of the classic SR format, with in-game online posting, commented by the community, and separate game information. As they put it, this section does not go into details or offer bunch of facts. And it leaves you to wonder if the Russian in Marienbad area are just a Vory gang or a Russian military unit.
In Nepal, it suggests there is a real war going on between Saeder-Krupp and Nepal. If so, an open war between a megacorporation and a nation should be some serious matter (also note on page 124, the illo of a Nepalese carrying a Thunderstruck Gauss riffle).

Regarding Poland, and more precisely Auschwitz, each and everyone will have his opinion. Shadowrun is our world, so I'm fine with saying what the place become. On my own, I'd probably never use it, but I'm fine with it. But suggesting the runners should do some underground crawling to get as a reward the magical rusted scalpel of a Nazi scientist is just past where I draw the line.

Albuquerque has nothing to do in this book. If it's not to provide some facts, what's the point of a hotspot of regular shadowrunning. You know, shadowrunning, the thing all the other Shadowrun books in the past twenty years save a handful, have been about ? We're told runs in Albuquerque are related to the war in South America, but not why.

Nothing about Caracas. Nothing about Desert wars.


GAME INFORMATION

Not much to say about this part. Stats for military equipment may comes in hand one day. I'm not rule-savvy enough to detect what is really game-breaking is not. More specifically, what is more game-breaking that what we already have. Only the Slow spell sure looks like one. And I agree summing arrows DV for simultaneous blows goes completely against the logic of the system.

- Pages 130 and 172. Ares and CAS have an Abdullah-class submarine. Irony intended I guess.

- Page 136. One noteworthy rule change : Composure test are called when the Fear power is used.

- Page 173. With 4000 complements and 80 aircrafts, the YNT Shibanojuki class is on part with the Enterprise and Nimitz class aircraft carrier. Those do not dwarf the largest cargo vessel nowadays, quite a few are much bigger.

- Page 178. Too bad for the Recharge spell that there is actually no rule nor any indication to estimate how long SR equipment can run on a fully battery, save for the laser weapons.

[Abschalten]

Caracas has slowly become a collection of zones in a combination of PbP descriptions and PM's here on the 'Shock between Abschalten and I that is distinctly noir.

Publishing hasn't been planned yet either. I have no illusions about making a cent off of it and I don't want to speak for Abs, but I figure we'd just release it for the community to enjoy, pick apart, make suggestions on, and ultimately use in their games.

That's the plan! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

We've taken great pains not to contradict canon (except for some ABSURDITIES in Ghost Cartels), and so far it's become a pretty bad-assed setting, all while having a South American noir feel to it.

Edit so I can add to the conversation:

I'm somewhat angry at the lack of information on Caracas, honestly. I realize I'm slightly biased, with my campaign being in the same region, but I was sincerely hoping for some updated information, especially in light of the Azzie strikes in and around the city under the pretense of snuffing out tempo operations. This action was supposed to really kick-start the war, insofar as information in other sources (Ghost Cartels, 6WA) goes.

And not only was the information not there, but the canon developments (and yes, sad to say this stuff is now all canon) are just laughable and inconsistant (thematically and factually) with the rest of the setting.

This makes me rather sad. I took excessive pains to keep my campaign from contradicting canon, but at this point I'm seriously thinking about divorcing it from what is established and going my own way. It's sad that it had to come to this, but honestly, I had some high hopes for War!. Now it seems like the aftermath of all that writing talent leaving Catalyst after the financial fiasco is finally coming home to roost.

[Sengir]

OK, how about this: Final say, PDF Format book: Worth the purchase price?

Nay.
The gear section and are good overall...sure there's some munchkin potential and motherhood statements, which book doesn't have those. But 50 pages are not worth paying for 180.

[kanislatrans]

OK, how about this: Final say, PDF Format book: Worth the purchase price?

A yes from me.

already bought it...I'd say I'm 90% happy with the product and 10% not thrilled. Yeah, there is some stuff I don't care for,but I guess I don't expect perfection from a hobby product. Hell, back in the old days I paid more than 15 bucks for a game that showed up in the mail run off on a mimeograph machine. 200 pages of purple ink on shit paper. (damn, wish I could remember what it was called). horrible game, no art. Typo's gallore, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) , and practically unplayable as I recall. Was I disappointed? Sure. Did it ruin my day? No, we just went back to playing AD+D (original edition)

so, yeah, I like it. Guess it comes down to personal expectations...

I'll end with a quote from a friend who's a Dominatrix in her spare time...

"Some like it soft and some like hard, but no matter what your thing, we're all just a bunch of sick pervs..."*grin*

Walk in Beauty,
Kanis

[Ancient History]

Hey, shadowkids. It has been some little while. As much as I've been trying to distance myself from CGL and Shadowrun under its current direction, I would like to step in for just a moment and provide a bit of perspective on War! and its development.

Just in the interest of full disclosure, I'm not an unbiased observer. Spoiler alert on the rest of the links in this paragraph, you have been warned. The current crop of freelancers and I have our differences, and one of the last things I did before Jason asked for me to be booted from the freelancing pool is voice my opinion on War! and the upcoming plot.

War! didn't begin with SR line developer Jason M. Hardy, or War! writers Aaron Pavao, David Hill, Filamena Young, and Michael Wich. It started out as a proposal by former SR line dev Peter "Synner" Taylor, and that book - which was to be titled Dogs of War, but which had to be renamed because White Wolf published their own book of the same title before War! was finished - was a very different animal. Really, it was supposed to be a massive update and re-imagining of the Fields of Fire sourcebook, detailing miltech, military hotspots, and how to run a mercenary campaign.

Dogs of War was never made, and Peter Taylor didn't last as line dev. In the interim, as the production schedule slowed to a crawl, the focus and concept of the book that was to be War! changed substantially. By the time I left, Bogotá had taken a prominent place in the book - the argument being that it would present an alternative campaign style (mercenaries instead of shadowrunners) and a ready-made setting to accommodate that style (war-torn Bogotá). There was a great deal of argument about this among freelancers - I personally did not feel Bogotá was exactly a mercenary hotspot, among other reasons.

Really, I had almost nothing to do with War! before I left. I remember reviewing some of the early drafts about Bogotá (I believe I impolitely referred to a lot of it as simply "shit," which wasn't terribly productive), and I might have spoken to Aaron once or twice on mechanics - but that's it. I was out before the final drafts were complete. So, I can't say exactly what went on in the editorial process, but given my experience under the current developer, I can guess.

Freelancers are paid to write, not edit or fact-check someone else's work. In the past, freelancers who had the time and the devotion would go over the drafts before or after layout, looking for the errors that creep in. Catching typos and silly mistakes is a labor of love, generally thankless and always unpaid. I can't tell you definitively if that did or did not happen with War!, but given the state of the document - and again, my experience with the SR line developer - I would be very surprised if this is the case.

Please understand, I'm not making a qualitative judgment about the writing. Whatever my personal feelings towards David Hill, I think he and Filamena Young are fine and technically proficient writers. I have worked in the past with Aaron on SR projects, and while we may well argue and butt heads on many things, I respect his ability to write and work. Michael Wich's work I am not generally familiar with, but I doubt he would be responsible for the excess of typographical and language errors found throughout the book. The presence of these errors is a quantitative measure of the book's editorial stage, and by that standard War! was very poorly edited indeed.

Before I left, the SR line developer had already frustrated several freelancers with his general unwillingness to incorporate suggested corrections. There were many corrections to problems in the Sixth World Almanac and Corporate Guide that freelancers had noted and posted corrections to weeks before the final draft was sent to the printers which were completely ignored, and which found their way into the final products. I personally wasted several days trying to put in corrected stats for PACKS, after errors had unintentionally been introduced during the proofing stage.

Jason was more willing to knowingly print a flawed document than to incorporate the changes someone else more familiar with the material had worked out. That is, has been, and will be the continuing standard for Shadowrun while he is SR line developer. Despite his laudable claims to produce higher quality products for Shadowrun, the books published under his direction - Corporate Guide, Sixth World Almanac, and now War! - have been some of the sloppiest and error-laden productions ever released for Shadowrun to date. I can say this with some authority, because I can reach down any SR book from the last twenty years and compare it directly, and I have.

Believe it or not, I'm not here to villify or insult Jason. The position of SR line developer opens a person up to a great deal of honest criticism. The quality of the line reflects directly on the line developer, the quality of the products is a direct measurement of their skills and standards. Jason has claimed he wants to produce the best Shadowrun books he can, for as long as they will let him, and he is under pressure to perform from the fans, from the freelancers, and last but not least his own bosses, Randall Bills and Loren Coleman, who want to see product out the door.

The long and the short of it is, however, that people will buy War! Nothing I, or Frank Trollman, or Critias, or anyone else on the internet says or does will do much to affect PDF sales. I doubt anything we say will affect hardcopy sales, when and if they occur, at all. Because as poorly as the book is edited, as bad as the plotline is, as crap as the actual writing and art and mechanics may be - and those last four are qualitative assessments - people are going to buy War!. It has new guns, toys, spells, adept powers, vehicles, missiles, Thor shots. Overpowered? All the better. Shadowrun as a brand is still strong enough that people will buy it just because it is an official release, just because it has more and better gear than their books at home. People want good Shadowrun products, but in the absence of that they'll take whatever they can get.

I don't say that to insult everyone that likes War!, who actually enjoys the Bogotá writeup or thinks the bit with the carnivorous trees is inspired and works perfectly in the metaplot. Fuck anyone that tells you what you can or cannot enjoy. Even War!'s most dark and dreary detractors admit there are gems in the rough in this book, and I know anyone that enjoys RPGs for any length of time has read and sometimes used a book considered "crap" or "ridiculous" by the self-appointed elites and know-it-alls of the 'net. You can have my Dragon Magic signed by Brom when you pry it out of my cold, dead hands.

By the same token, that does not mean you need to defend War! or its contents. This advice I will extend especially to War!'s writers, though I doubt most of them need it or would heed it coming from me. People will make of War! what they will. The last thing this book needs is for someone to come in and act as an apologist for its faults, or try to brush away many of the very real errors made in the book. One thing every writer has to learn at some point is that a work has to stand, or fall, on its own merits and flaws. If you have to try and explain or cover your ass, then you've failed to communicate something essential to the audience. That happens. Those besides the authors of the book, keep in mind that people who don't like the book are not attacking you just because you happen to like it. Don't take criticism of the book to be criticism of yourself, and don't start flaming people or arguing with them about it. It is as unlikely they will change your opinion as it is you will change theirs.

Finally (thanks for reading this far! Home stretch!), if anyone is still considering buying this book: read everything, decide whether or not the book sounds like something you want, and then make your decision. I'll be honest: the book has problems. I don't like it, I don't like where Shadowrun is going, and I'm not going to follow it there - because War! is a taste of the products that are to come. If you buy War!, than like it or not you're endorsing its vision of Shadowrun, of what SR is going to be. If you're cool with that, it's your money and your game. Either way, good night, and Ghost bless.

[hobgoblin]

That actually makes a lot of sense then. The Nazi thing isn't as strong a taboo in the East, I think.

Yep, the closest thing you get would the Japanese. And they where more asshole imperialists (likely helped along by them having nationalized xenophobia since forever).

[Abschalten]

@Ancient History:
I don't mean this question as a veiled jab of your subjective analysis of the Shadowrun line, I am merely curious: You say you don't like where the Shadowrun line is going. At which point in time, or with which release, did you start to see the line going towards a direction you didn't like?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You're the Perfect Customer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

You may be right... I do not think that it is a bad thing to look for the silver lining in a less than stellar piece of work. Afterall, it really does me no good to constantly complain about something once I have laid out the money. I feel justified in making a complaint, Once, but then I must really move along and make the best of things...

Anyways...
Have a great Weekend...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You still don't get it. You really do not understand the difference between a web forum and print product containing spelling errors. I am undecided if this is depressing or amusing.

Ausserdem, mein ('vermutlich') amerikanischer Freund, was heisst hier 'anscheinend'? Naja, du kannst das ja eh sicher nicht verstehen, aber ich wuerde doch gerne mal sehen wie du dich in irgendeiner anderen Sprache schlägst. 'Vermutlich' schlecht. Und deine Beherrschung von Adverbien ist so katastrophal wie bei fast allen Amerikanern (und mit den Verben hast du es ja auch nur bedingt), nur so nebenbei angemerkt, also lehn dich mal besser nicht so weit aus dem Fenster.


Firstly, that is not my duty. I am neither being paid by this (as I hope the authors of this turd are, as they are liable to, no matter the quality of their work) nor do I, the customer, have any obligation to work in my time to make a better product. That is what I paid the producer money for. Secondly, I am neither obliged to sugarcoat my complaints with kind words and whatnot. I can also spread the word about the awfulness of the product - actually, I am morally obliged to to prevent the company ripping other potential customers off with flawed, broken and/or overpriced product.

And you can do nothing about that.


I really, honestly cannot. The closest thing I can say is that a) the artwork's nice, even if placed totally arbitrarily and often in no cohesion with the text it illustrates, and b) the matrix gear up to level 10 is an okay addition I played with as a house rule for some time (our prices were higher though, and it went up to 12). But that's really little bits. the vast majority of the book really is just ... bad. In every way imaginable. Writing, editing, ideas, execution, composition, the way it rapes canon, the way it is internally incoherent. Nothing redeeming about this book.

No, I do get the differences, I just do not beat them continuously until there is nothing left.
You are right, I am really wasting my time with you in the end, aren't I? That is okay though, I still hold out some hope for you...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hey, shadowkids. It has been some little while. As much as I've been trying to distance myself from CGL and Shadowrun under its current direction, I would like to step in for just a moment and provide a bit of perspective on War! and its development.

....

Finally (thanks for reading this far! Home stretch!), if anyone is still considering buying this book: read everything, decide whether or not the book sounds like something you want, and then make your decision. I'll be honest: the book has problems. I don't like it, I don't like where Shadowrun is going, and I'm not going to follow it there - because War! is a taste of the products that are to come. If you buy War!, than like it or not you're endorsing its vision of Shadowrun, of what SR is going to be. If you're cool with that, it's your money and your game. Either way, good night, and Ghost bless.

Thanks Ancient History... Greatly appreciate your views...
Glad to see you still ocassionally still surf the Forums... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Franky goes to War!/Bogota
i'd post it to the official SR4 board myself, but eh . .

[Abschalten]

All these links, and I can't open any of them (yet) because I'm at work. Damn.