War, HUH! It's out on pdf Options

[Stahlseele]

All these links, and I can't open any of them (yet) because I'm at work. Damn.

poor you, i feel your pain . . i have to be at work in some hours again <.<

[hermit]

And not only was the information not there, but the canon developments (and yes, sad to say this stuff is now all canon) are just laughable and inconsistant (thematically and factually) with the rest of the setting.

The one good thing to say here is you can always brush off any canon from this book as "someone high on beetles posted bullshit on Jackpoint and old man Jack didn't delete it". It's the Matrix.

Hey, shadowkids.

ka-pow ka-pow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

So Attitude is going to be a similar disappointment?

No, I do get the differences, I just do not beat them continuously until there is nothing left.

And you do that by continually referencing it. That shows an even greater not understanding of concepts.

You are right, I am really wasting my time with you in the end, aren't I? That is okay though, I still hold out some hope for you...

Are you trying to make a point or trying to bait?

i'd post it to the official SR4 board myself, but eh . .

Review sites and retailers are a much better idea.

[Grinder]

Tymeaus Jalynsfein, hermit - stop it. Both of you.

[Cthulhudreams]

I'm still torn about which one of these is the funniest:

A) The post on the official forums about the German who player who didn't want to kill any 'jewish ghosts' (other ghosts are fine? That section is in the worst of taste)

B) The fact that the book contradicts itself on literally the same page several times

C) That a book about a war in a location doesn't a have a map in it.

[sabs]

That link to the Freelancer dialogue on IRC makes me cry. I mean, seriously cry.

Ghostwalker seduced? A Great Dragon who is an ecoterrorist using a dirty nuke?

I think I just died inside a little reading that.

[Kagetenshi]

Law, sausage, and now games? (it's not just the new faces—Bull repeatedly advocates "rule of cool" as an approach to development in that log.)

~J

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tymeaus Jalynsfein, hermit - stop it. Both of you.

My Apologies Grinder...

[Neurosis]

How about being a bit more constructive and actually work on the War 2.0 Supplement that you are putting forth (I have read the thread by the way). It would go a long ways to proving that you are much more capable than those who write professionally for a living.

As is much bandied about here, Shadowrun freelancers aren't really making a LIVING from it, Tymaeus. As I can sadly attest, writing in general is damn hard to make a living from.

The long and the short of it is, however, that people will buy War! Nothing I, or Frank Trollman, or Critias, or anyone else on the internet says or does will do much to affect PDF sales. I doubt anything we say will affect hardcopy sales, when and if they occur, at all. Because as poorly as the book is edited, as bad as the plotline is, as crap as the actual writing and art and mechanics may be - and those last four are qualitative assessments - people are going to buy War!. It has new guns, toys, spells, adept powers, vehicles, missiles, Thor shots. Overpowered? All the better. Shadowrun as a brand is still strong enough that people will buy it just because it is an official release, just because it has more and better gear than their books at home. People want good Shadowrun products, but in the absence of that they'll take whatever they can get.

This is incredibly true. I have read everything that anyone here has said, as well as Frank's rants on TGD, and I am still willing to buy War!...and I will admit it is for the exact reason you outlined. More and better cool toys.

The one thing...the one thing I simply cannot understand...is the absence....of a map. If I were NOT to purchase War! it would come down to that. How could they possibly not have included a map? Sure, the quest to kill Jewish holocaust victim ghosts and steal their magical treasure is horribly tasteless, offensive, and badly conceived. But I can just ignore that. By not including a map, you've essentially crippled the product.

If I could only make one change to War before it goes to the printers, it would be adding a map.

[Stahlseele]

Drunken Master 3

[kzt]

Drunken Master 3

"A whole section in a book about War! about Nepal and no one thought to mention that the most famous and feared military tradition on the entire planet comes from the place you are talking about? How did that slip by without notice?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif)

Another made up quote from the author: "Well, it wasn't really mentioned in the Wikipedia article that I spent 5 minutes glancing over. And I was running late. And the dog ate my homework."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

As is much bandied about here, Shadowrun freelancers aren't really making a LIVING from it, Tymaeus. As I can sadly attest, writing in general is damn hard to make a living from.

Point Taken...

This is incredibly true. I have read everything that anyone here has said, as well as Frank's rants on TGD, and I am still willing to buy War!...and I will admit it is for the exact reason you outlined. More and better cool toys.

The one thing...the one thing I simply cannot understand...is the absence....of a map. If I were NOT to purchase War! it would come down to that. How could they possibly not have included a map? Sure, the quest to kill Jewish holocaust victim ghosts and steal their magical treasure is horribly tasteless, offensive, and badly conceived. But I can just ignore that. By not including a map, you've essentially crippled the product.

If I could only make one change to War before it goes to the printers, it would be adding a map.

Yes Indeed, A MAP would be nice to have.

[hobgoblin]

something tells me most of the modes of the smartstaff will never be used...

[hermit]

You say that as if having a combination of sex toy and bladed weapon that is totally hackable because it "needs wireless" (skinlink for a handheld weapon is such a ridiculous concept) isn't the best thing since sliced bread.

[Stahlseele]

sex toy
bladed weapon
hackable
sliced bread

combine and have fun!

[hermit]

Yup. And according to quantum fetish mechanics, a sexual abberation has just been born. Hence:

something tells me most of the modes of the smartstaff will never be used...

is sadly, though understandably, mistaken.

Thank you, CGL.

sliced bread

Mmmh sandwiches.

[Sengir]

Drunken Master 3

Antiziganism? I dunno, although given the state of the real world, a scenario where the players have to fan such sentiments clearly is another entry in the "what the hell were they thinking" section.

And if you want to blame somebody for the German location names in Eastern Europe, blame whoever translated the Germany Sourcebook and didn't change the names.

[hermit]

given the state of the real world, a scenario where the players have to fan such sentiments clearly is another entry in the "what the hell were they thinking" section.

Given the state of Gypsies in Eastern Europe especially. It's really like a writeup where players work for an ambitious German party (that remains unnamed) and fan antijudaic feelings in Germany to get that party votes.

And if you want to blame somebody for the German location names in Eastern Europe, blame whoever translated the Germany Sourcebook and didn't change the names.

Actually, blame the original Germany Sourcebook. However, SoE clearly gave the Czech name as alternative name of this dysfunctional little place. Research. It works.

However, if you want to tell that to Frank, you have to tell it to him here. He's permabanned on DSF.

[raben-aas]

A) The post on the official forums about the German who player who didn't want to kill any 'jewish ghosts' (other ghosts are fine? That section is in the worst of taste)

Actually, the German poster was referring to ongoing discussions on German SR boards about the Auschwitz chapter, esp. in view of a possible translation of that topic. Killing ghosts may not be fine, but killing ghosts or people surely is a part of SR play. And while there has been some tradition of shooting undead Nazi zombies/ghosts/whatever for fun in the entertainment industry, doing the same with concentration camp victims does indeed seem a "little" bit offensive, esp. if done by Germans (players, characters, gamemasters, publishers...).

Generally speaking: Using Auschwitz for any sort of entertainment is a bad idea. Suggest sth. like that and be an American, you just may get away with it. But do the same as a German, you are in deep shit (and rightly so). SR fans in Germany were and are worried that the German publisher may be "forced" to translate that chapter as part of the licensing contract, chapter headline & all. And while I doubt that the licensing agreement is that strict, dealing with that special chapter will be one tough issue.

That's how I understood the post at the official forum, anyway (if indeed you meant the post by Medicineman – there may of course be other ones which I have missed).

[sabs]

Actually given the serious Anti-Nazi laws in Germany.. the German SR publisher may not be allowed to translate it.
Which, in so many ways would make the German version of War a better book (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[cndblank]

This is a much more positive response to War.

You were hurting your own case there at the end.

And thanks for the maps!

Well, there's mine. I guess somewhere between all those dots you write and confusing spelling in a forum post and pay product, you missed that, so no worries. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Besides, if you pay money for something you have a right to complain if you feel it is of sub-par quality. If you buy a car and find out the engine's missing and the windows fall out on your first drive, that is not a good car, and you don't need to design a better to get a refund and have a right to vehemently complain. There's laws covering that. Where the hell do you take the idea from that you have to write a better War! (not that this would be too hard to do) to have any right to complain anyway?

[Sengir]

Given the state of Gypsies in Eastern Europe especially.

Well, a certain western neighbour also likes to do that, hence world and not Eastern Europe (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Actually, blame the original Germany Sourcebook.

Using German exonyms in a German text is correct, although in formal writing the German name is usually compounded with the Czech equivalent. However, translating a text while keeping the German exonyms is like keeping all instances of "Köln" istead of translating them to "Cologne". Even without any regard to the sensitivities between Germany and our eastern neighbours, it is a clear and objective mistranslation.

[CanRay]

"German is such an untidy language." - The Dresden Files

[Cochise]

Actually given the serious Anti-Nazi laws in Germany.. the German SR publisher may not be allowed to translate it.

Said laws aren't that serious as to prohibit a translation of the section in question. It really only boils down to a question of morals / taste and the displeasure within the german player community. I'm not even sure that this displeasure isn't at least in part a result of the mental (and often exagerated) self-flagellation that the majority of us germans tend to impose upon ourselves in order to avoid any situation that could even remotely suggest that one has nationalistic views (that would pass as national pride or patriotism in any other place of this world).

[sabs]

Well you know, it's still early.

People my generation grew up hearing stories about the War.
I've spoken to several european immigrants like me, from France, Denmark, couple other places. We grew up with the stories of our grand parents about WWII. It's a very visceral thing for us. I know that Germans of today aren't the Germans of the 1940's.. but it hasn't been that long. That self-Flagellation isn't un-earned.

I find the whole use of Auschwitz as a dungeon crawl to be in incredible poor taste.

[tete]

The long and the short of it is, however, that people will buy War! Nothing I, or Frank Trollman, or Critias, or anyone else on the internet says or does will do much to affect PDF sales. I doubt anything we say will affect hardcopy sales, when and if they occur, at all. Because as poorly as the book is edited, as bad as the plotline is, as crap as the actual writing and art and mechanics may be - and those last four are qualitative assessments - people are going to buy War!. It has new guns, toys, spells, adept powers, vehicles, missiles, Thor shots. Overpowered? All the better. Shadowrun as a brand is still strong enough that people will buy it just because it is an official release, just because it has more and better gear than their books at home. People want good Shadowrun products, but in the absence of that they'll take whatever they can get.

I'll disagree, if you bought it and you dont like it you should post a negative review on Drive Thru or Amazon (providing you got it from one of those sources). I have chosen not to buy several products be it pdfs, books, a computer etc thanks to significant negative feedback. If I see 6 or so 1 or 2 star reviews of a product on drivethru I'll take the time to read them all before spending my money even if it has 50 positive reviews. The key is me seeing if the complainers have a valid point or if they just blowing hot air cus they dont like the product and or company. You'll never stop the fan boys but for those who play Shadowrun on occasion your view could matter.