War, HUH! It's out on pdf Options

[hobgoblin]

i have read the claim that EU works in much the same way as how Bismarck formed the Germany we (more or less) know today.

[Tzeentch]

-- I haven't read the book, but I do have to say I found the Trollman review absolutely hilarious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Raiki]

I've skimmed the book, and that review is still hilarious.

For what it's worth, the only real complaint I have at the moment (other than the massive ammount of spelling errors) is that none of the new gear/drones/vehicles have pictures. Considering my group is currently running in Seattle, and has little reason to ever go to Bogota, the main draw of this book for me was the toys. The fact that I can't actually SEE any of them is a real bummer.

Raw stats (pun intended) just don't quite do it for me.




~R~

[otakusensei]

I've skimmed the book, and that review is still hilarious.

For what it's worth, the only real complaint I have at the moment (other than the massive ammount of spelling errors) is that none of the new gear/drones/vehicles have pictures. Considering my group is currently running in Seattle, and has little reason to ever go to Bogota, the main draw of this book for me was the toys. The fact that I can't actually SEE any of them is a real bummer.

Raw stats (pun intended) just don't quite do it for me.




~R~

Not to mention the raw stats don't make a lot of sense. I expect a bit of power creep, but War! is kinda nuts. I dig the Smartstaff, but a lot of the high end weapons and the grenade rules need to be rolled back.

[hobgoblin]

If your the GM, have a chat with your players. This is not some MMO or FPS where everything is set in stone by the devs!

Don't like something in the book, don't use it. Simple as that.

[Raiki]

Not to mention the raw stats don't make a lot of sense. I expect a bit of power creep, but War! is kinda nuts. I dig the Smartstaff, but a lot of the high end weapons and the grenade rules need to be rolled back.

What really got me was the ammunition. They've officially made APDS, Flechette, Explosive, and Ex-Ex ammo obsolete. I mean, what sniper worth his salt isn't going to try to put an anti-tank round through your face instead of APDS? And any self respecting gunbunny is going to get their favorite weapon chambered for High Power ammo as soon as they can reliably obtain it(though at least they had the sense to not allow HP-HV weapons[unless you just buy an HVAR and mod it for HP ammo]). And don't even get me started on armor piercing flechette ammo; That one just kinda makes me die a little inside. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

Who cares about the new guns? With all this new ammo, you can turn a YSF into a Troll-Killing-Machine-Of-Death! Though I will have to admit that the first player that tries to buy an Ares Shockbeam is going to suffer from Suddon Onset Orbital Bovine Displacement Syndrome.




~R~

[otakusensei]

If your the GM, have a chat with your players. This is not some MMO or FPS where everything is set in stone by the devs!

Don't like something in the book, don't use it. Simple as that.

Yeah, but how much time should I spend discussing this or that exploit with my players vs. playing the game? Should I write up a veto list? I've been running this game for many years, and one of the things I've liked about 4th is that I have spent less time dealing with the consistency of the mechanics and more time just playing. Sure there are some problems, and rules that don't make sense, but if you are aware of the limitations of this or that technique you can quickly address issues and return to play. After all, I ran a 2nd-3rd game with major net book influence and we only ended all life on Earth once. This book offers a boat load of canon (pun intended) issues. The scale isn't as bad, but it doesn't even remotely fit in flavor, scale or mechanics with what came before.

[otakusensei]

What really got me was the ammunition. They've officially made APDS, Flechette, Explosive, and Ex-Ex ammo obsolete. I mean, what sniper worth his salt isn't going to try to put an anti-tank round through your face instead of APDS? And any self respecting gunbunny is going to get their favorite weapon chambered for High Power ammo as soon as they can reliably obtain it(though at least they had the sense to not allow HP-HV weapons[unless you just buy an HVAR and mod it for HP ammo]). And don't even get me started on armor piercing flechette ammo; That one just kinda makes me die a little inside. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

Who cares about the new guns? With all this new ammo, you can turn a YSF into a Troll-Killing-Machine-Of-Death! Though I will have to admit that the first player that tries to buy an Ares Shockbeam is going to suffer from Suddon Onset Orbital Bovine Displacement Syndrome.




~R~

Hear, Hear.

Though, outside of sniping, AV rounds are a better choice. I was just taken a back by why they thought they needed one when they had the other. All agreed on the rest though. Even if mages are immune to firearms now...

[Raiki]

Hear, Hear.

Though, outside of sniping, AV rounds are a better choice. I was just taken a back by why they thought they needed one when they had the other. All agreed on the rest though. Even if mages are immune to firearms now...

I thought AV rounds were are AP -4 (-6 against vehicles). How is that not as good as a flat -6 against everything (from AT ammo)?


And yes...the slow spell is retarded.

Edit: Clarified after I checked the relevant source books.



~R~

[hobgoblin]

*facepalm*

[otakusensei]

I thought AV rounds were are AP -4 (-6 against vehicles). How is that not as good as a flat -6 against everything (from AT ammo)?


And yes...the slow spell is retarded.

Edit: Clarified after I checked the relevant source books.



~R~

Cost/benefit. The extra -2 is better, but AV is cheaper and easier to come by. Plus they work in more weapons.. There also tends to be a lot of drones at my table, and not everyone is willing to die for their night security job; so shooting people is sort of rare.

[Tzeentch]

-- What are the costs of APDS vs. AT ammo? I suspect that it's expensive for "game balance" but in a book where you can buy orbital artillery I wonder (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[otakusensei]

-- What are the costs of APDS vs. AT ammo? I suspect that it's expensive for "game balance" but in a book where you can buy orbital artillery I wonder (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Not that different honestly. You have to be a nitpicker, or have a CFO for a boss, to worry about the difference.

[Raiki]

Cost/benefit. The extra -2 is better, but AV is cheaper and easier to come by. Plus they work in more weapons.. There also tends to be a lot of drones at my table, and not everyone is willing to die for their night security job; so shooting people is sort of rare.

Ahhh, well given those circumstances I can see why the difference would be negligible.

And to Tzeentch:

AV Ammo: 18F, 120 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per 10 shots.
AT Ammo: 22F, 170 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per 10 shots.

A bit harder to get, a bit more expensive...but really nothing too drastic.


...And yes, it is in fact possible that I neglected to read the part about Sniper Rifles, HMGs, and Assault Cannons only for AT ammo... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)


~R~

[hermit]

or interrogate a dead corporate drone to get the password to his company's mainframe.

... and corps regularily interrogate dead corp drones to find out what happened. As do mobsters to find out who geeked their made men. And anyone else a shadowrunner might shoot will be interrogated by the cops. It's kinda like hindsight-powered minority report. The birth of super CSI. The end of shadowrunning. Just like with teleportation, there is a REASON that necromancy is one of the few absolute taboos in Shadowrun.

So, doable yes, just like teleportation (actually, that's a metamagical technique called planeswalking that you could just import from Earthdawn). But it would break the game. Into very tiny little pieces.

Anyway, now I'm wondering what it'd do to Shadowrun to write a solid necromantic extension: guidelines for when a person will leave behind a ghost, and what they can do, and how mages can handle them.

I dunno. that's a plot instrument, and should remain one. Such rules are just as necessary as those for statting nukes, thur shots or extinction event asteroid impacts are.

i have read the claim that EU works in much the same way as how Bismarck formed the Germany we (more or less) know today.

Not quite yet, but we're getting there. Still need a unified military and economical policies and something resembling an actual head of state for the hidden but already present government.

And yes...the slow spell is retarded.

It's the new emotitoy.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

The birth of super CSI.

That's what Psychometry is for.

And that's much better than asking witnesses (no matter if dead or alive), only to find out that the faces (if any) of the people they saw belong to the recently deceased.

[Ascalaphus]

i have read the claim that EU works in much the same way as how Bismarck formed the Germany we (more or less) know today.

I've also read lots of comparisons to Charlemagne, and to the Burgundian Netherlands and the later Dutch Republic. Honestly, trying to demonstrate that the EU is just national history on a bigger scale is just a fad (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

... and corps regularily interrogate dead corp drones to find out what happened. As do mobsters to find out who geeked their made men. And anyone else a shadowrunner might shoot will be interrogated by the cops. It's kinda like hindsight-powered minority report. The birth of super CSI. The end of shadowrunning. Just like with teleportation, there is a REASON that necromancy is one of the few absolute taboos in Shadowrun.

There's no need to get hysterical. I wasn't saying that everyone who dies leaves a ghost, or that every ghost is coherent and able to remember what happened, or that every ghost can be compelled to be honest.

Anyway, the real end of shadowrunning is omnipresent cameras coupled with facial, voice and gait recognition. But so far that hasn't stopped the game.

I dunno. that's a plot instrument, and should remain one. Such rules are just as necessary as those for statting nukes, Thor shots or extinction event asteroid impacts are.

On the other hand, ghosts are a staple of fantasy/horror stories. I find them to be annoyingly absent from Shadowrun.

Introducing necromancy would change the game, but I'm not sure it would break it. It would actually make ancestor worship and voodoo traditions make much, much more sense. It also opens up new avenues of dystopia with corporate slavery beyond the grave.

[hermit]

There's no need to get hysterical. I wasn't saying that everyone who dies leaves a ghost, or that every ghost is coherent and able to remember what happened, or that every ghost can be compelled to be honest.

Ah, so you meant pure Phantom Creation Rules? I took "solid necromantic extension" as, well, necromancy. D&D stuff. Wake up the dead and talk to them and make them serve you and all that.

On the other hand, ghosts are a staple of fantasy/horror stories. I find them to be annoyingly absent from Shadowrun.

Introducing necromancy would change the game, but I'm not sure it would break it. It would actually make ancestor worship and voodoo traditions make much, much more sense. It also opens up new avenues of dystopia with corporate slavery beyond the grave.

I find the Walking Dead annoyingly common these days, and ghosts on every corner equally generic. YMMV.

Classic D&D Necromancy would break the in-game economy, the in-game assumption that runners can somehow slip through the cracks (Psychometry is a rare metatechnique that should probably be followed up by rolling for PTSD, if everyone can raise the dead it'S a different picture altogether) and force one interpretation of the in-game ancestor spirits on everyone instead of keeping things vague enough they can be fit to many play styles.

You DO have apparitions, ghosts and whatnot in Shadowrun. You have possession of vessels, which can be dead bodies. You can decide for yourself that apparitions and ancestor spirits really ARE the dead (hell, I do in my games; however, they're hard to predict and harder to get useful information from). It is already there if you want it, it's just not easy. And it's a GM instrument, which is just fine with me.

[Ascalaphus]

I realize that having yet another vector of investigation would make it harder to cover your tracks as a runner. Of course, runners could also turn it on their pursuers; stuff an NPC guard with misinformation and kill him. When the corporation interrogates him, he'll lead them in the wrong direction. Or runners could be interrogating the corpses of those random gangers that attacked them, to determine who sent them.

I think that having necromancy doesn't mean that the PCs can't slip through the cracks anymore. Whether they could do so was GM fiat all along. There is so much CCTV and data mining in SR4, that if the GM sets Big Brother to "Realistic Mode", the PCs don't stand any chance at all.

Just like Pink Mohawk requires a GM to be willing to relax technological investigation, the same thing applies to ghosts.
* Maybe not everyone leaves a ghost; only someone with an exceptional ongoing concern in life does.
* Maybe slack-willed wageslaves don't leave very potent ghosts. A mage could easily Banish it before his pursuers get their hands on it.
* Ghosts don't necessarily stay where they died. They might go somewhere out of corp jurisdiction to haunt loved ones.

I'm thinking ghosts might be a sort of subclass of Free Spirits. Any mage can try to Banish them. They typically appear at a Force related to the deceased's Edge, Magic, Willpower, Street Cred, Essence and so forth. There'd be a metamagic, Necromancy, to be able to Summon or Bind them. They might have Fetters instead of a Formula, which would be harder to reproduce.

Hmm. It might be interesting to play a ghost as a shadowrunner actually.

[hermit]

Just use the Free Spirit rules then and call it ghost? Maybe allow whatever powers an apparition has.

Personally, I don't see much on the win side if we introduce rules for becoming a ghost. Either these rules are so restrictive that ghosts don't become any more common than they already are, or we add yet another layer of problems on top of a game that, if played consequently, is closing in on Paranoia in deadliness already.

As for your ghost shadowrunner: Who would hire him? And sicne ghosts in SR are canonically bound to specific areas, or tasks, I imagine this runner to be quite ... limited in what he can do.

[Kot]

As for the Ghost matter, everyone who has a Name can be summoned with it. The Sixth Age mages don't know that yet, so, no ghost of Captain Chaos (if he's dead) can be summoned by a special ritual to teach the team's hacker new tricks. If Ancient's idea of high magic would be implemented, then it would probably work, along with Pattern and Names theory. So, maybe spirits of the dead (Namegiver Spirits in ED) can be summoned. But no one knows how yet, and those few cases are just like Auschwitz - a result of something BIG, even if it's genocide.

@Hermit: He could use a vessel, or move with his remains(why do we carry that skull around?).

[Kagetenshi]

As for your ghost shadowrunner: Who would hire him? And sicne ghosts in SR are canonically bound to specific areas, or tasks, I imagine this runner to be quite ... limited in what he can do.

Maybe he's bound to the Renraku Arcology? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

~J

[Grinder]

(why do we carry that skull around?).

Say hell to Bob. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Dr.Rockso]

As for the Ghost matter, everyone who has a Name can be summoned with it. The Sixth Age mages don't know that yet, so, no ghost of Captain Chaos (if he's dead) can be summoned by a special ritual to teach the team's hacker new tricks. If Ancient's idea of high magic would be implemented, then it would probably work, along with Pattern and Names theory. So, maybe spirits of the dead (Namegiver Spirits in ED) can be summoned. But no one knows how yet, and those few cases are just like Auschwitz - a result of something BIG, even if it's genocide.

@Hermit: He could use a vessel, or move with his remains(why do we carry that skull around?).

I seem to recall CC being 'revived' from an optical disk(saved by JackBNimble). So CC's e-ghost could totally teach the team's hacker new tricks, should you somehow convince him to.

@Kot: This ghost runner better be named Morte.

[Stahlseele]

Remind me again, why anyone would use the ghost instead of the free spirit thingie?
Only reason i could think of would be for a backstory, but nothing else . .