War, HUH! It's out on pdf Options

[Ascalaphus]

I don't think we'd be well-served with rules for when ghosts pop up. Guidelines for what kind of people and what kind of death may lead to a ghost are useful however.

Incidentally, since ghosts don't seem to truly exist canonically (no rules for them in SR4), how can they be canonically restricted to a specific location?

As for the possibilities of undead shadowrunners;
A) Dead people may still have an agenda, such as revenge or protecting a loved one. Johnson can deliver the ghost the resources to further that agenda.
B) People play AI, pixie, naga, dryad, drake and vampire PCs. I think a ghost is actually fairly normal, compared to those.

[hermit]

A) Dead people may still have an agenda, such as revenge or protecting a loved one. Johnson can deliver the ghost the resources to further that agenda.

Johnson isn't the quartermaster or Santa. Johnson hires people to get shit done he wants done, not because they have an agenda.

B) People play AI, pixie, naga, dryad, drake and vampire PCs. I think a ghost is actually fairly normal, compared to those.

It's not about normal, it's about practical. That's why there are no rules on playing a Meistersinger or a Merrow. Ghosts in Shadowrun are either pathetically weak or tied to a certain place. If you're the Spectre of Long Street 1100, you can NEVER LEAVE THAT PLACE. Ever. What good are you as a runner if the run doesn't take place inside Long Street 1100?

Say hell to Bob.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Though actually that's heresy.

[Kot]

Hermit, sometimes the Johnson is just a middleman.

And how is a ghost anchored to a place different from a Immersed hacker/technomancer, or AI? He can probably still Possess people/creatures/things...
Now imagine a Technomancer ghost, who can possess machines?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

That's not possible, actually: Posession does not allow for control of electronics and Resonance and Magic are mutually exclusive.
eGhosts would be an option, but the rules for PC-AIs are even more retarded than the ones for Free Spirits – and the rules for eGhosts are even worse.

Of course, Inhabitation works just fine… so the posessed commlink from hell is possible.

[Ascalaphus]

Johnson isn't the quartermaster or Santa. Johnson hires people to get shit done he wants done, not because they have an agenda.

Under normal circumstances, Johnson pays you to do jobs. Payment a ghost can use for his own agenda. And it isn't written in stone that payment has to be money; Johnson might pay by pulling certain strings for the ghost. It's not very different from living shadowrunners; everyobdy expects Johnson to recompense them in some way for working.

Ghosts in Shadowrun are either pathetically weak or tied to a certain place.

Care to support that with page references?

[Stahlseele]

i guess the hidden life or place of power or whatever that was is meant . .

[hermit]

Place of Power. Admittedly, my knowledge of Ghosts is mostly 3E, I'll check up on them in RW.

Under normal circumstances, Johnson pays you to do jobs. Payment a ghost can use for his own agenda. And it isn't written in stone that payment has to be money; Johnson might pay by pulling certain strings for the ghost. It's not very different from living shadowrunners; everyobdy expects Johnson to recompense them in some way for working.

But that's no basis for a character, except for one specific scenario.

[Matsci]

Incidentally, since ghosts don't seem to truly exist canonically (no rules for them in SR4), how can they be canonically restricted to a specific location?

Uh, Wut? Check Running Wild pages 178 and 179

Most ghosts are free-roaming and may go bump wherever they want to. Ghost with haunts or chains, however, have additional restrictions and powers that modify their stats.

[Prime Mover]

Beat me, was wondering why no one had mentioned RW yet.

[Ascalaphus]

Uh, Wut? Check Running Wild pages 178 and 179

Thanks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Megu]

Just use the Free Spirit rules then and call it ghost? Maybe allow whatever powers an apparition has.

Personally, I don't see much on the win side if we introduce rules for becoming a ghost. Either these rules are so restrictive that ghosts don't become any more common than they already are, or we add yet another layer of problems on top of a game that, if played consequently, is closing in on Paranoia in deadliness already.

As for your ghost shadowrunner: Who would hire him? And sicne ghosts in SR are canonically bound to specific areas, or tasks, I imagine this runner to be quite ... limited in what he can do.

This is what I would do. I've actually considered making an onryo (think the ones from The Grudge or Sadako from the Ring) out for revenge against one corp or another for her death and the enjoyment of wreaking violence on the mortal world, using some debugged version of the Free Spirit rules. Sort of a mix of Sadako and the Bride from Kill Bill. And I was under the impression that not all ghosts were bound to places like that? Or perhaps one of the other PCs carries the anchor object.

[hermit]

Not all, no.

And this is fine for a one-shot character, but not for something you want to play for more than one campaign. I'd personally use such a ghost as a Johnson, and gradually drop it on the plaqyers that it'S not quite ... alive.

[CanRay]

So, I'm hearing a whole bunch of reason to not buy this product on PDF. Am I right?

Should it go back into the oven and bake for awhile longer until done?

[otakusensei]

So, I'm hearing a whole bunch of reason to not buy this product on PDF. Am I right?

Should it go back into the oven and bake for awhile longer until done?

I don't know, how long do you need to bake a crap until it turns into cake?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Well, if you really think the print version will look any better…

[hermit]

Should it go back into the oven and bake for awhile longer until done?

It should be used to fertilise soild so an actual product can grow out of it's fermented, decayed and processed remains.

[Raiki]

I don't know, how long do you need to bake a crap until it turns into cake?

Pretty much this. Only this particular piece of crap has the capability of vaporizing cities in the wrong hands.

And by that, of course, I mean Neraph's hands. I bet the only reason he's not taking an active part in this conversation is that he's too busy finding ways to put a THOR shot into his Super Warhawk. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)



~R~

[Rotbart van Dain...]

You can always chamber your Warhawk for Moar Powa rounds.

[Cthulhudreams]

Unlike this shit from War, that would not be tasteless. Maybe the guys running it are the sylvestrines, together with some Rabbis and a bunch of catholic-afflicted carebear people?

I think you're probably wasting your time trying to redeem the idea. It's not very good to begin with - who thought 'what shadowrun really needs is to become D&D with GUNZ'

Really?

[CanRay]

OK, from the opinions of people here, I'm going to have to vote with my money not to buy this product until I can see for myself if it's worth it.

Which means I'll have to wait to see if my FLGS even bother getting it in the first place for me to look at.

[Critias]

I think you're probably wasting your time trying to redeem the idea. It's not very good to begin with - who thought 'what shadowrun really needs is to become D&D with GUNZ'

Really?

Partially inspired by the conversation in Pulp Fiction about how everyone is either, deep inside, a Beattles person or an Elvis person, I've long been grouping Shadowrun players one of two ways. For 12 or 15 years now, I've been describing Shadowrun players as folks who either like "Cyberpunk with Elves" or "D&D with guns." Obviously you're a Cyberpunk with Elves type of guy, after my own heart. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

There's always been some semi-dungeon crawls in Shadowrun, though. What's the Arcology, if not our version of the Temple of Elemental Evil? What's a bug hunt? A trip into the sewers to fight devil rats and rogue ghouls? How were Tir na nOg and Tir Tairngire not very D&D for much of their existence? The game is half-fantasy, after all, and it's not a huge stretch to call every invasion into corp territory something of a dungeon crawl. Break in, get past security (monsters and traps), get the MacGuffin, get out; isn't that basically the arc of almost every dive into a D&D dungeon, too?

I agree that the treatment Auschwitz got wasn't to my liking, but I think claiming that those six paragraphs alone are to blame for Shadowrun "becoming" D&D with guns is as silly and hyperbolic as the folks implying (or outright stating) that the writer of that section is some a Nazi sympathizer. He took a chunk of Europe that was full of angry ghosts in SoE and turned it into a chunk of Europe that's full of angry ghosts in War!, but now PCs maybe kind of have some halfway profitable, Shadowrunnery, reason to go there. Is it a great reason? No, not really. But I'm sure that was his intent, not anything sinister or setting-shattering.

[lehesu]

So all of the frothing at the mouth over the presence of ghosts is overkill? Granted, the Auschwitz thing doesn't seem to be a particularly good idea to me...

[Stahlseele]

If you have some free time, read some of franks stuff.

[otakusensei]

Partially inspired by the conversation in Pulp Fiction about how everyone is either, deep inside, a Beattles person or an Elvis person, I've long been grouping Shadowrun players one of two ways. For 12 or 15 years now, I've been describing Shadowrun players as folks who either like "Cyberpunk with Elves" or "D&D with guns." Obviously you're a Cyberpunk with Elves type of guy, after my own heart. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

There's always been some semi-dungeon crawls in Shadowrun, though. What's the Arcology, if not our version of the Temple of Elemental Evil? What's a bug hunt? A trip into the sewers to fight devil rats and rogue ghouls? How were Tir na nOg and Tir Tairngire not very D&D for much of their existence? The game is half-fantasy, after all, and it's not a huge stretch to call every invasion into corp territory something of a dungeon crawl. Break in, get past security (monsters and traps), get the MacGuffin, get out; isn't that basically the arc of almost every dive into a D&D dungeon, too?

I agree that the treatment Auschwitz got wasn't that awesome, but I think claiming that those six paragraphs alone are to blame for Shadowrun "becoming" D&D with guns is as silly and hyperbolic as the folks implying (or outright stating) that the writer of that section is some sort of Nazi sympathizer. He took a chunk of Europe that was full of angry ghosts in SoE and turned it into a chunk of Europe that's full of angry ghosts in War!, but now PCs maybe kind of have some halfway profitable, Shadowrunnery, reason to go there. Is it a great reason? No, not really. But I'm sure that was his intent, not anything sinister or setting-shattering.

I see what you mean about six paragraphs not ruining the whole book. Completely agree. And I'm sort of on board with the two groups theory. I know that I've run into plently of folks that want D&D with guns, and use SR for that. But as those groups get to know the setting and the machanics I've found they move away from that. I've had to completely change my player based pretty much with each edition and I've seen the same maturation process each time. So I don't know if thinking about it as two groups of thought is entirely correct.

Like I talked about on the official forums; it's not about one section, it's about the on going drop in quality in Shadowrun books. I know that if I were writing for Shadowrun I'd be very careful about how my work was treated in editing right now.

[sabs]

I actually don't really have anything against the writer of the Auschwitz section, except I think he might have considered what he was writing. But I do have a problem with CGL actually using it, and printing it as is.